CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Can you obey the 10th Commandment perfectly?
Jesus the final sacrifice?
- Thread starter Jewjitzu
- Start date
Open Heart
Well-known member
Acts chapter 21 shows that the Jewish believers in Jesus continued in sacrifice.
1. Acts 21:20 says, "You see how many thousands of Jews believe, and are all zealous for Torah." That includes the sacrificial laws, obviously.
2. Several believers who were Nazarites and ending their vows were going to the temple to make the necessary sacrifice.
3. James directs Paul to go with them, and Paul CONSENTS. So even Paul offered sacrifice.
Open Heart
Well-known member
BTW, welcome to the forum.
The standard has NEVER been perfection. God built into the Law what we are to do when we fall short.
The standard is repentence. Those who are righteous repent when they sin. The unrighteous do not.
Proverbs 24:16 “For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.”
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Hi, Open Heart. I looked up Acts 21 and it only mentions circumcision. I suppose the other Jewish customs would be obeying Leviticus 11 about unclean meats. But if something as important as sacrifices was concerned, that wouldn't be merely a custom and not specified. Customs may include the feasts and sabbaths.
No, because these commands are repeated in the New Covenant.
You left out until all be fulfilled. Christ fulfilled them.
It proves the Old Covenant has been abrogated (Hebrews 8:13).
It doesn't. Christians are under the commands of the New Covenant.
It doesn't contradict it. It fulfills it.
Open Heart
Well-known member
Thank you. I was just curious.
So where in the Tanakh (OT) does it say it is okay to pray to anyone but God?
BTW, you are new here, so I went ahead and looked up the references. However, there is proper debate etiquette for you to consider in the future. If you are making an assertion, it is up to you to provide the evidence. In the case of scriptures it means both citing AND QUOTING the references. We cannot put on our interlocutor an obligation to go looking for our evidence.
Again, thank you for looking up those verses for me.
Open Heart
Well-known member
Not if they are Jewish. The covenant between God and Israel is "everlasting." Or as Jesus put it, not a brushstroke will pass away from the Law until heaven and earth pass away.
Fulfilling just means obey the commandments as each incident arises. It does not mean that somehow the law was something to be filled up and once filled becomes obsolete.
Just a word to help you with your strategy. When speaking to Jews, it is a good idea to quote only from the Tanakh (OT), since the NT is considered invalid by us. YOu might as well quote teh Quran or the Book of Mormon or Harry Potter.
It just does no good.It doesn't. Prayer is due unto God alone.
This is taught in Deuteronomy 6:4-5
- Deuteronomy 6:4-5 - Only one time is necessary
It would take only one time for the Bible to teach the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer/worship to demonstrate He is God. Since the Bible teaches this truth in quite a few passages leaves those who deny He is God with no excuse for their unbelief...
forums.carm.org
and
1 Kings 8:38-39
https://forums.carm.org/threads/only-pray-to-god.7370/
Since the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer demonstrates He is God.
I am supplying the evidence. Where have I not?
Thanks for discussing this very important topic with me.
Open Heart
Well-known member
Jesus kept the Law probably as well as other Jews, and in that sense he fulfilled them. But as I said in an earlier post, the Law is not a glass that you fill up, and once filled throw away.
Even in Christianity, all is not yet fulfilled. Jesus has yet to return and be a kingly messiah. There are prophecies he left unfinished. So, it is not fulfilled yet.
Like I said in my earlier post, it does no good for you to quote the NT -- this has no authority for me. Remember that if the NT contradicts the Tanakh (OT) that it is simply evidence that the NT is not the word of God.
Until all be fulfilled. Christ is the fulfillment of the Law (Romans 10:4).
It became obsolete because God declared it to be so (Hebrews 8:13).
- Hebrews 8
What is our Seventh-day Adventist root objection to the words of Hebrews 8:13? Does it nullify any of our other SDA beliefs and teachings? 13. In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13
forums.carm.org
When speaking to Jews, it is a good idea to quote only from the Tanakh (OT), since the NT is considered invalid by us. YOu might as well quote teh Quran or the Book of Mormon or Harry Potter.
The NT is the word of God. Whether one accepts that or rejects it does not impugn at all on its validity.
CharismaticLady
Well-known member
Not if they are Jewish. The covenant between God and Israel is "everlasting." Or as Jesus put it, not a brushstroke will pass away from the Law until heaven and earth pass away.
Fulfilling just means obey the commandments as each incident arises. It does not mean that somehow the law was something to be filled up and once filled becomes obsolete.
Just a word to help you with your strategy. When speaking to Jews, it is a good idea to quote only from the Tanakh (OT), since the NT is considered invalid by us. YOu might as well quote teh Quran or the Book of Mormon or Harry Potter.
Hi again, I'm going to give my 2 cents if you don't mind. But this knowledge is from the New Testament, so you may not want to accept it. Anyway, if you care what I believe - there was nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments; it was holy. What changed was the need for the written laws on stone. You see, the reason for the Law being given in the first place had to do with sin. You know that after Adam sinned, we all inherited the nature of the serpent, Satan. So sin dwells inside all of us from birth as part of our nature. If you know them, you can keep the letter of the law, but coveting goes deeper, and actually shows us we are sinners, no matter how we try to keep the law perfectly.
That is the reason why they gave sacrifices, but the blood of bulls and goats could only cover sin, not take it away. That is why Jesus came. His blood took away that old sin nature, and wrote the laws of God on our recreated nature. Therefore instead of man obeying laws contrary to his nature, he now could keep them naturally. But to do that, one must accept Jesus as their Savior from sin, and at least as the Son of God. Then God's Spirit can come inside of them, and abide inside of us, giving us His divine power and divine nature. Then we are no longer sinners, but children of God. You won't find many people on here (Christians) agreeing with me, but that is what the New Testament says, including the prophecy of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31
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Jewjitzu
Well-known member
My opening post.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
At a minimum those that Paul paid for, and Jerusalem council that told him to do it.
Open Heart
Well-known member
Again, its validity is established by it not conflicting with previous revelation.
Do you know why God allows Mormons to exist? So that Christians can understand how Jews feel.
Open Heart
Well-known member
Oh please do, and welcome to the forum.
Well, you see, this is where Christians make a great strategy error. You waste time by referring to a text that Jews do not accept as God's word. You might as well quote the Quran or Book of Mormon or Harry Potter for all your efforts.
I care about all people.
There actually is 613 commandments. They are ALL from God.
That's not true. The Law is NOT written on our hearts yet -- we will know when this comes to pass when we no longer have to teach our children right from wrong. Furthermore, the laws written on the hearts of Jews will be the 613 of our covenant.
I don't think even Christians claim we have the nature of the serpent. That is something you either made up yourself, or heard it from someone who was heterodox.
But at any rate, in Judaism, we have two natures. We have a Yetzer HaRa (evil inclination) and a Yetzer HaTov (good inclination).
The reason we give sacrifice is because God commands it. Right now it would be unlawful to give sacrifice, since there the Temple is the only place where it is lawful to do so. Some day the Temple will be rebuilt and sacrifices resume.
There were MANY types of sacrifices. Sin offerings was only one type of sacrifice, and it was only good for UNintentional sin. For intentional sin, we can not buy ourselves a clean slate -- we actually have to do the hard work and repent. Repentence is a theme that runs through the entire Tanakh (OT).
I realize you believe this because you are a Christian. However, as a Jew, I don't accept it at all. And preaching tends to fall on deaf ears. In my mind, Jesus' death was for nothing. He was just a nice Jewish man who tried to be the messiah and failed.
Jewjitzu
Well-known member
If Jesus' took away the sin nature, the world wouldn't be in the predicament it is in today. As it is, we live in one of the worst times in history. His blood hasn't helped.
Open Heart
Well-known member
Oh it does indeed conflict, since it abrogates the Law. You can't get a bigger conflict than that