Jesus, the human born, how should we see him?

L

Lilel01

Well-known member
I have read many who regard Jesus as an equal with Jehovah, say that even while he was human, Jesus was GOD in physical person. That idea sounds absurd to me, but that's not the worst of it. Actually those same believers say that some things that happened to Jesus, some things that he said and did, were just like a human, and some others like GOD Himself.

But did someone who knew Jesus in person or someone who lived at that time think such things of him?

To understand biblical content as historical and real, I like to visualize myself at the time of the events I am reading about. If I had been a Jew in times when Jesus was a man and walked in the territory of Judea or Samaria ... would I have considered Jesus as GOD Himself? What did everyone who knew him comment about Jesus at that time What would I have heard if I had been there?

Let's get real and let's all stop fantasizing as if the gospels were some kind of legends or myths to be interpreted. The stories of the life of Jesus are narratives of real events, stories of a real man who spoke of God, who became a Jewish teacher of a group of Jews who considered him their Lord or Master ... Did they consider him as if he were GOD when they were following him?
 
In John 9 we are told one of the great miracles of Jesus: the healing of sight to a man born blind. You can read the whole story, but I am going to quote this part, which is when the Pharisees call the healed man for the second time to question him, after they had already spoken to him once and even questioned his parents.

John 9:24?So a second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him: “Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner.” 25?He answered: “Whether he is a sinner, I do not know. One thing I do know, that I was blind, but now I can see.” 26?Then they said to him: “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” 27?He answered them: “I told you already, and yet you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become his disciples also, do you?” 28?At this they scornfully told him: “You are a disciple of that man, but we are disciples of Moses. 29?We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he is from.” 30?The man answered them: “This is certainly amazing, that you do not know where he is from, and yet he opened my eyes. 31?We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to this one. 32?From of old it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of one born blind. 33?If this man were not from God, he could do nothing at all.”

This man born blind was a Jew. Notice what he says.

What a formidable reasoning for such a simple man. Couldn't the Pharisees have realized the logic of his arguments?

1) The Pharisees did not know the origin of Jesus' power even though they were teachers of the law and were supposed to be aware of such matters and to have understood them, because it was not the only thing that had happened in relation to Jesus Christ and their signals;

2) the blind man said "God does not listen to sinners but to the righteous" ... Although the Bible does not clearly say that Jesus had invoked God before healing him, the blind man makes it clear with his words. If Jesus invoked God and answered him then he was not a sinner;

3) the blind man says that there was no previous record of a man born blind who had been miraculously cured, that is, it was a practically exclusive miracle ... How could a sinner invoke God to perform such a special miracle and have been able to to be heard?

The occasions in which Jesus performed miracles were the most propitious so that if it was the case, those who witnessed those events would identify him as if he were GOD himself in person, since it was when the power of God was carried out directly through him. This was just one of those cases.

Did anyone who was present at this event, or found out what happened, believe that Jesus was GOD Himself in person?
 
Lilel01 said:
In John 9 we are told one of the great miracles of Jesus: the healing of sight to a man born blind. You can read the whole story, but I am going to quote this part, which is when the Pharisees call the healed man for the second time to question him, after they had already spoken to him once and even questioned his parents.
John 9:24?So a second time they called the man who had been blind and said to him: “Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner.” 25?He answered: “Whether he is a sinner, I do not know. One thing I do know, that I was blind, but now I can see.” 26?Then they said to him: “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?” 27?He answered them: “I told you already, and yet you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? You do not want to become his disciples also, do you?” 28?At this they scornfully told him: “You are a disciple of that man, but we are disciples of Moses. 29?We know that God has spoken to Moses, but as for this man, we do not know where he is from.” 30?The man answered them: “This is certainly amazing, that you do not know where he is from, and yet he opened my eyes. 31?We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to this one. 32?From of old it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of one born blind. 33?If this man were not from God, he could do nothing at all.”
This man born blind was a Jew. Notice what he says.
What a formidable reasoning for such a simple man. Couldn't the Pharisees have realized the logic of his arguments?
1) The Pharisees did not know the origin of Jesus' power even though they were teachers of the law and were supposed to be aware of such matters and to have understood them, because it was not the only thing that had happened in relation to Jesus Christ and their signals;
2) the blind man said "God does not listen to sinners but to the righteous" ... Although the Bible does not clearly say that Jesus had invoked God before healing him, the blind man makes it clear with his words. If Jesus invoked God and answered him then he was not a sinner;
3) the blind man says that there was no previous record of a man born blind who had been miraculously cured, that is, it was a practically exclusive miracle ... How could a sinner invoke God to perform such a special miracle and have been able to to be heard?
The occasions in which Jesus performed miracles were the most propitious so that if it was the case, those who witnessed those events would identify him as if he were GOD himself in person, since it was when the power of God was carried out directly through him. This was just one of those cases.
Did anyone who was present at this event, or found out what happened, believe that Jesus was GOD Himself in person?
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John 20:27-29
27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."​
The blind were considered to be sinners in the same way as lepers they were banished from the cities and had never been in the temple or a synagogue. Strange you believe the words of a blind outcast should be so compelling but pooh, pooh away the words of Jesus' disciple.
 
This topic was not opened to talk about the pre-human Jesus or the resurrected Jesus, but to talk about Jesus when he was a human. I would be grateful to those who participate in my topics, that they comply with the norm that limits the posts to the topic in question.

Don't turn every topic into a discussion about the same thing. Each topic has a sense of being that is traced by the one who opened it, and that must be respected ... according to the rules of the forum and foril ethics.

Thanks for your cooperation.
 
As you can see in the story of the healed blind man, no one believed that Jesus was GOD for doing that. There are many more similar examples. The Samaritan woman with whom Jesus spoke did not consider him to be GOD Himself when he discovered part of his sexual life. Notice:

John 4:16 He said to her: “Go, call your husband and come to this place.” 17 The woman replied: “I do not have a husband.” Jesus said to her: “You are right in saying, ‘I do not have a husband.’ 18 For you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. This you have said truthfully.” 19 The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. "

Later in the conversation, she told him: “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.” (v. 25) and he replied “I am he, the one speaking to you.” (v. 26). Later she went to tell a group of Samaritan men to see this man and the things he said. She told them: “Come and see a man who told me everything I did. Could this not perhaps be the Christ?” (v. 29). So, they came to him, and finally, after listened to him, they said to the woman: “We no longer believe just because of what you said; for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the savior of the world.” (v. 42).

And again: Did anyone who was present at this event, or found out what happened, believe that Jesus was GOD Himself in person?
 
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Lilel01 said:
As you can see in the story of the healed blind man, no one believed that Jesus was GOD for doing that. There are many more similar examples. The Samaritan woman with whom Jesus spoke did not consider him to be GOD Himself when he discovered part of his sexual life. Notice:

John 4:16 He said to her: “Go, call your husband and come to this place.” 17 The woman replied: “I do not have a husband.” Jesus said to her: “You are right in saying, ‘I do not have a husband.’ 18 For you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. This you have said truthfully.” 19 The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. "

Later in the conversation, she told him: “I know that Mes·siʹah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.” (v. 25) and he replied “I am he, the one speaking to you.” (v. 26). Later she went to tell a group of Samaritan men to see this man and the things he said. She told them: “Come and see a man who told me everything I did. Could this not perhaps be the Christ?” (v. 29). So, they came to him, and finally, after listened to him, they said to the woman: “We no longer believe just because of what you said; for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the savior of the world.” (v. 42).

And again: Did anyone who was present at this event, or found out what happened, believe that Jesus was GOD Himself in person?
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As long as you reject Phil 2:6 & 7, you will be far far away from truth understanding only one side of the coin:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Again, if you don't see any connection between John 7:37 and Rev 21:6-7 then you will know nothing.

Again if you don't see the connection between John 1:14 (Tabernacled in our midst) and Rev 21:3 - you will know nothing but only speak from one side of the coin.

If you don't see duality in the powers within God, you won't know nothing.

There is no charm in even reading your one sided view of scriptures knowing also where you come from.

Just tell me from scripture what will be the role of the Son after:

1Cor 15: 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Just what will be the role of Christ, The Son of God after 1Cor 15: 23-28 from scriptures?
 
Lilel01 said:
I have read many who regard Jesus as an equal with Jehovah, say that even while he was human, Jesus was GOD in physical person. That idea sounds absurd to me, but that's not the worst of it. Actually those same believers say that some things that happened to Jesus, some things that he said and did, were just like a human, and some others like GOD Himself.

But did someone who knew Jesus in person or someone who lived at that time think such things of him?

To understand biblical content as historical and real, I like to visualize myself at the time of the events I am reading about. If I had been a Jew in times when Jesus was a man and walked in the territory of Judea or Samaria ... would I have considered Jesus as GOD Himself? What did everyone who knew him comment about Jesus at that time What would I have heard if I had been there?

Let's get real and let's all stop fantasizing as if the gospels were some kind of legends or myths to be interpreted. The stories of the life of Jesus are narratives of real events, stories of a real man who spoke of God, who became a Jewish teacher of a group of Jews who considered him their Lord or Master ... Did they consider him as if he were GOD when they were following him?
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After His resurrection they knew He was God.
 
Lilel01 said:
Did they consider him as if he were GOD when they were following him?
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It seems pretty obvious that the Disciples, really DIDN'T HAVE A CLUE what was really going on - until the evening of the Resurrection, when they received the indwelling Holy Spirit, and their understanding of the Scriptures was opened.
 
Each and every one of the Christian books that make up the inspired Christian Greek Scriptures were written when Jesus Christ had already been ascended to heaven ... minimum 7 years later and maximum 65 years later. If we do not take that into account, we would not know how to differentiate between the thinking of the disciples and apostles of Jesus when they followed him as their human Master, and when they preached the things they had learned from him and the holy spirit reminded them that he had said, or the new ones that he made them understand from those already heard and other important revelations that were also recorded later.

Everything that is related to us in the Gospels has several nuances in which it can be analyzed:

1) the point of view of the moment when the event occurred. What were the doctrinal implications of those events at the moment they ocurred?
2) Were those doctrinal implications established forever, or later have changed when the disciples of Christ were anointed with holy spirit and had a greater understanding about certain very specific things?

Is the identity of Christ something that was understood "differently" from how he had taught it?

Matt. 7:24 “Therefore, everyone who hears these sayings of mine and does them will be like a discreet man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and lashed against that house, but it did not cave in, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house, and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”

... 28:18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
 
I would like to recount the Jewish accusations that Jesus "made himself equal to God."

Many who believe that Jesus is equal to God, or another God within the trinity, often cite Jewish accusations to try and justify their belief. But, is it real that Jesus said that he was equal to God? Or was that just a strawman that the Jews who hated Jesus were creating in order to accuse him of blasphemy?

The answer to this question is important, because modern Trinitarians accuse non-trinitarians of siding with the Pharisees who accused Jesus of blasphemy ... BUT if they were just making up a pretext, then those who are taking their side are the Trinitarians, who believe that Jesus was really saying what they were accusing him of.

If Jesus, the human, had said that he was equal to God, wouldn't that really be blasphemy? When we read the accounts of this accusation of the Jews, we realize that Jesus NEVER said such a thing.
 
Lilel01 said:
Many who believe that Jesus is equal to God, or another God within the trinity,
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"another God within the Trinity"?
Here's some good advice.... Maybe you should refrain from criticizing the Trinity until you first UNDERSTAND what it teaches.

The Trinity teaches that ONLY. ONE. GOD. EXISTS.

There is no such thing as "another God".
There is only ONE God.
 
As I already told you, I have absolutly no intention of having any argument with you. Focus on the thread and answer the post you are quoting. Thank you and good bye.
 
Lilel01 said:
As I already told you,
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Then you have no need to repeat yourself.

Lilel01 said:
I have absolutly no intention of having any argument with you.
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Not my problem.
And I don't remember asking you to respond, so you may want to lose the attitude.

You made a post in a public discussion forum, and I have very right to respond to it.
You can reply to my response, if you choose.
You can choose NOT to reply to my response, if you choose.
Either way, I don't care.

Lilel01 said:
Focus on the thread
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It is against CARM rules to play moderator, and it is against CARM rules to order people around. Next time I won't be so nice, I'll simply report you. You're welcome.

Lilel01 said:
and answer the post you are quoting.
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I DID answer the post, in the way I chose to be most appropriate.
Again, you are breaking CARM rules. I suggest you cease.

Lilel01 said:
Thank you and good bye.
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Good bye.
 
Lilel01 said:
I would like to recount the Jewish accusations that Jesus "made himself equal to God."
Many who believe that Jesus is equal to God, or another God within the trinity, often cite Jewish accusations to try and justify their belief. But, is it real that Jesus said that he was equal to God? Or was that just a strawman that the Jews who hated Jesus were creating in order to accuse him of blasphemy?
The answer to this question is important, because modern Trinitarians accuse non-trinitarians of siding with the Pharisees who accused Jesus of blasphemy ... BUT if they were just making up a pretext, then those who are taking their side are the Trinitarians, who believe that Jesus was really saying what they were accusing him of.
If Jesus, the human, had said that he was equal to God, wouldn't that really be blasphemy? When we read the accounts of this accusation of the Jews, we realize that Jesus NEVER said such a thing.
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I will echo what @Theo1689 said "Here's some good advice.... Maybe you should refrain from criticizing the Trinity until you first UNDERSTAND what it teaches."
You said "Many who believe that Jesus is equal to God, or another God within the trinity, often cite Jewish accusations to try and justify their belief."
I have been a Christian since LBJ was president and I have never heard or read of any Christian say anything like that.
Your posts might have some credibility if you would stick closer to the truth what Christians actually say and actually quote the Bible what it actually says not what you think it says..
Jesus did not say He was "equal with God." Paul the writer of Philippians said that in chap 2 vs. 6.
 
There are so many trinities, that none of you know all of the concepts, just one, yours. I do not need to know each beliefs of all different trinities. I know what I need about it, in general ... and it is not a biblical teaching ... none of them is.
 
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Lilel01 said:
There are so many trinities, that none of you know all of the concepts, just one, yours. I do not need to know each beliefs of all different trinities. I know what I need about it, in general ... and it is not a biblical teaching ... none of them is.

Good bye to you too.
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So basically you're here to bash the Trinity in your ignorance, and refuse to learn what the Trinity actually teaches? Sounds like a waste of time to me...
 
Lilel01 said:
If Jesus, the human, had said that he was equal to God, wouldn't that really be blasphemy? When we read the accounts of this accusation of the Jews, we realize that Jesus NEVER said such a thing.
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This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
 
CrowCross said:
This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
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Have you analyzed Jesus' responses each time he was accused of such a thing? Did he deny or confirm the accusation? What do you conclude when you read the contexts of these stories?

BTW, the Bible is not silent about what the persons who knew Jesus thought about him; the Bible is clear: Mat. 21:46; Mar. 6:14,15; 8:28 ("a prophet"), a man with whom God was and to whom he gave a lot of power ... but they never believed that he was GOD.

Acts 10:38 (...) Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all the things he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem (...)
 
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