Jesus was "made Lord" (Acts 2:36)

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Fred

Well-known member
cjab said:
The Lord Jesus is NOT the proper recipient of prayer by Acts 2:21, for many times Jesus instructed his disciples how to pray and he never said "pray to me."

It shows you don't take instruction, you don't listen to a single word anyone says (including Jesus himself), you're incapable of engaging with any issue except you're own narrow bigotted propaganda.
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Your confusion concerning Matthew 6:9 was already addressed here:

https://forums.carm.org/threads/matthew-6-9-does-not-forbid-praying-to-the-lord-jesus.7422/

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: I call upon (on my behalf) the name of the Lord, i.e. to invoke, adore, worship, the Lord, i.e. Christ: Acts 2:21 (from Joel 2:32 (Joel 3:5)); Acts 9:14, 21; 22:16; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2...Romans 10:12; 2 Timothy 2:22. (epikaleō, page 239)
 
C

cjab

Well-known member
Fred said:
Your confusion concerning Matthew 6:9 was already addressed here:

https://forums.carm.org/threads/matthew-6-9-does-not-forbid-praying-to-the-lord-jesus.7422/

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: I call upon (on my behalf) the name of the Lord, i.e. to invoke, adore, worship, the Lord, i.e. Christ: Acts 2:21 (from Joel 2:32 (Joel 3:5)); Acts 9:14, 21; 22:16; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2...Romans 10:12; 2 Timothy 2:22. (epikaleō, page 239)
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Let me put the issue to you in more simple language: Jesus ordered his disciples to pray to the Father, not himself.
 
F

Fred

Well-known member
cjab said:
Let me put the issue to you in more simple language: Jesus ordered his disciples to pray to the Father, not himself.
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Let me put the issue to you in more simple language: Jesus did not order His disciples to pray only to the Father.
 
JNelson

JNelson

Well-known member
Fred said:
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified. (NASB)

The first thing to notice is that moments earlier Peter (recorded by Luke) applied YHWH from Joel 3:5 (Septuagint) in reference to praying to the Lord Jesus in Acts 2:21. This demonstrates the Lord Jesus is God.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/pau...lxx-unto-the-lord-jesus-in-romans-10-13.7415/

Therefore, Jesus was not made Lord in that He was created for He has always been the Lord. Jesus was made Lord in that His resurrection validated His Lordship.
Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words: The title 'Lord', as given to the Saviour, in its full significance rests upon the resurrection, Acts 2:36; Rom. 10:9; 14:9 (Lord, page 690).

Romans 1:4 also links Jesus being declared the Son of God with His resurrection, even though the Bible already taught that He is the Son of God before this writing (cf. John 11:27). Once again, His resurrection validated that He is the Son of God.

It is worth noting that the expression, "the Lord Jesus" was first used after His resurrection (Luke 24:3).

Those who believe Acts 2:36 teaches the Lord Jesus is not God are very confused.
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Is Jesus Yahweh in Psalms 2:7 or he is a different Yahweh?
 
Y

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Fred said:
Some passages affirm that YHWH refers to the Father while other passages do so in refernce to the Lord Jesus.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/paul-applies-yhwh-from-joel-3-5-lxx-unto-the-lord-jesus-in-romans-10-13.7415/
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That post you keep referencing mentions “YHWH from Joel 3:5”.

But Joel 3:5 does not mention the name “YHWH”.

Joel 3:5... Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:

Did you actually intend to post another passage that does mention “YHWH”?

If so, please post it.

I would like to respond to your statements but I would like to refer to the same passages you are.

It just does not seem that you meant Joel 3:5.
 
F

Fred

Well-known member
Yahchristian said:
That post you keep referencing mentions “YHWH from Joel 3:5”.

But Joel 3:5 does not mention the name “YHWH”.
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It appears in Joel 2:28, but the Septuagint has it in Joel 3:5 as kyrios since it was written in Greek.

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: I call upon (on my behalf) the name of the Lord, i.e. to invoke, adore, worship, the Lord, i.e. Christ: Acts 2:21 (from Joel 2:32 (Joel 3:5)); Acts 9:14, 21; 22:16; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:2...Romans 10:12; 2 Timothy 2:22. (epikaleō, page 239)
 
C

cjab

Well-known member
Fred said:
It doesn't appear so your heresy is refuted.
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It never needed to appear because Jesus never taught himself as God, or sought to supplant the Father. That is your heresy: to replace the Father by the Son. Look into Ba'alism, and you'll see that your heresy is what is taught by paganism.
 
F

Fred

Well-known member
cjab said:
Rubbish. You're making up a false, gnostic, gospel.
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You ignored John 14:14 because it refutes your heresy.
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The unity of the Son with the Father finds expressions in the fact that prayer in the name of Jesus can be directed to either Father or Son (5:276, onoma, Hans Bietenhard).
 
Y

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
I would love one of you trins or ones to point out to me where in this passage below it reveals that anyone was actually praying to Christ, and that this is how the words of Joel 2:32 was being applied by Peter when he was quoting this.

All I see here is that Peter revealed that the out pouring of the Holy Spirit on that day of Pentecost was the fulfillment of Joel 2 and nowhere does he mention that anyone was praying to Jesus in the passage at all.


Here look at it yourself and you will see what I am saying, for I don't see this as having anything to do with praying to Jesus as if he himself were God and like the poster of the thread was claiming.



Acts 2:
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[d] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:

“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,

27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[e]
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’[f]
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”


Fred said:
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified. (NASB)

The first thing to notice is that moments earlier Peter (recorded by Luke) applied YHWH from Joel 3:5 (Septuagint) in reference to praying to the Lord Jesus in Acts 2:21. This demonstrates the Lord Jesus is God.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/pau...lxx-unto-the-lord-jesus-in-romans-10-13.7415/
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Now notice what the poster of the Thread claimed in the above?

Where does it say anywhere in Peters sermon of Acts 2 that Joel 2:32 in his sermon was fulfilled on that day of Pentecost because people were praying directly to Jesus?

It doesn't at all period.

Besides this, Paul said these words about Jesus below and notice that his being the only Mediator between God and man as a man is in regards to the prayers and intercession that Paul speaks of in the context and in other words, the prayer unto God come to God only through Jesus as his human mediator.


1 Timothy 2:
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Look at the context above and notice that the subject is prayer and intercession for all men and then notice verse 5 and then verse 6.

Notice that Jesus being the mediator is directly related to prayers and intercessions made unto God and this is why Jesus told us to pray in his name also.

For in all things we can only come to the Father Yahweh through his human Son and heir and the one he made his only mediator between himself and men and who he also made Lord and Christ just under himself, the man Jesus Christ.


Does everyone see that verse 5 is related to the context of the prayers and intercession of believers unto God and that God made the man Jesus, the mediator of those prayers that would come to God through him and because of what Paul says in verse 6, where Paul says that he gave himself a ransom for those who we will be praying for?

So being Jesus gave himself a ransom for those who the believers would be praying for, doesn't it make sense that God would make Jesus the mediator of those prayers for the people he gave himself a ransom to save?
 
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F

Fred

Well-known member
Yahweh will increase said:
I would love one of you trins or ones to point out to me where in this passage below it reveals that anyone was actually praying to Christ,
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The name of the Lord (Acts 2:21) that Peter preaches to his audience corresponds to the name of Jesus Christ that they are to be baptized in (Acts 2:38). In fact, virtually every use of the name in the Book of Acts refers to the Lord Jesus (see also Luke 24:47).

Peter (recorded by Luke) presents praying to the Lord Jesus as being YHWH as part of the gospel that he preached - Paul did the same thing.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/paul-applies-yhwh-from-joel-3-5-lxx-unto-the-lord-jesus-in-romans-10-13.7415/
 
Y

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Fred said:
The name of the Lord (Acts 2:21) that Peter preaches to his audience corresponds to the name of Jesus Christ that they are to be baptized in (Acts 2:38). In fact, virtually every use of the name in the Book of Acts refers to the Lord Jesus (see also Luke 24:47).

Peter (recorded by Luke) presents praying to the Lord Jesus as being YHWH as part of the gospel that he preached - Paul did the same thing.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/paul-applies-yhwh-from-joel-3-5-lxx-unto-the-lord-jesus-in-romans-10-13.7415/
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Big deal, for as I said and will again, Yahweh God the invisible LORD, is everything that he is through his visible image Jesus Christ and therefore the Joel 2:32 is fulfilled through Jesus and not as Jesus.

By the way, if you don't like it that is just tough, for it is a fact and Jesus himself revealed it in John 14:6-10.

So you can go around in circles with your argumentative religious dogma about it until you are blue in the face but it won't eliminate what Jesus very clearly revealed about the Father in John 17:3 to let you off the hook about it, for you will deal with it either here while you have the breath of life or afterward at the GWT Judgment.

For it stands firm and if it was open for anyone else but the Father alone to also be The Only True God, then it was a pointless statement to have been made by Jesus and Jesus didn't make pointless statements.
 
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