Jesus was "made Lord" (Acts 2:36)

cjab

Well-known member
You ignored John 14:14 because it refutes your heresy.
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The unity of the Son with the Father finds expressions in the fact that prayer in the name of Jesus can be directed to either Father or Son (5:276, onoma, Hans Bietenhard).
As I said a doctrine invented by men, and not by Jesus.

This I have learnt: Trinitarians can appeal to any number of purely human authorities.

Check out what Jesus said to the Pharisees who supposed that they could exchange the words of the law for their own human-contrived doctrines Mat 15:3 - Mat 15:9.
 

Fred

Well-known member
As I said a doctrine invented by men, and not by Jesus.

This I have learnt: Trinitarians can appeal to any number of purely human authorities.

Check out what Jesus said to the Pharisees who supposed that they could exchange the words of the law for their own human-contrived doctrines Mat 15:3 - Mat 15:9.
You ignored John 14:14.
 

Fred

Well-known member
You've forgotten I've taken John 14:14 into account. It means confess, not pray to. It's you who are ignoring the true meaning of John 14:14.

You are appealing to your own misunderstanding which is "purely human authority" (see post 61).
 

cjab

Well-known member
John 14
"Call upon" is not used in John 14:14.
Get a clue.
14:14 is completely irrelevant. Just because Jesus is at the right hand of God doesn't mean to say he is the proper recipient of prayer in place of the Father.
 

Fred

Well-known member
John 14
14:14 is completely irrelevant. Just because Jesus is at the right hand of God doesn't mean to say he is the proper recipient of prayer in place of the Father.
John 14:14 teaches He is the proper recipient of prayer.
 

Fred

Well-known member
You really have a taste for manuscript variants don't you?
From a Unitarian:
The manuscript evidence supports the word “me” being in the original text. Modern textual scholars have concluded that some of the scribes copying the Greek text either thought that the wording, “ask me anything in my name” seemed strange, or they wanted to avoid what they thought was a contradiction to John 16:23, so they omitted the word “me” from the manuscripts they were copying (but in a couple of manuscripts scribes changed “me” to “the Father”). This explains why “me” is not in the King James Version—the manuscripts used in making the King James did not have the “me.” However, the weight of the manuscript evidence supports the word “me” being original, which is why almost all modern versions include it.
Very strong evidence that the word “me” is in the original text is that we can see from Acts and the Epistles that the early Christians did indeed ask Jesus for things, which is what the phrase “call upon the name of the Lord Jesus” refers to (1 Cor. 1:2). [For more information on John 14:14 not contradicting John 16:23 see commentary on John 16:23. For more information on talking to and praying to Jesus as well as a further discussion of the manuscript evidence that “me” is original, see Appendix 15: “Can We Pray to Jesus?”].
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/commentary/John/14
 

Fred

Well-known member
John 14:14 does not refer to prayer. End of. I'm finished with this drivel.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The unity of the Son with the Father finds expressions in the fact that prayer in the name of Jesus can be directed to either Father or Son (5:276, onoma, Hans Bietenhard).


In terms of your heresy, good riddance to bad garbage.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): The unity of the Son with the Father finds expressions in the fact that prayer in the name of Jesus can be directed to either Father or Son (5:276, onoma, Hans Bietenhard).


In terms of your heresy, good riddance to bad garbage.
The Father is de jure God, the Son de facto God as appointed by the Father in his place to rule the world, and gather all things together under Christ. Yet it isn't that the Father has abdicated his position, which is what you are inferring. The Father is still in full control and works through Christ, as it always was before the incarnation. Christ is thus subordinate to the Father. This is why prayer is to the Father, in Christ's name, because the Father is the head of Christ (1 Cor 11:3).

Trinitarians communize the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, removing all hierarchy, and all distinctions, such that there is no distinction. This is meaningless. On this basis why not pray to the Holy Spirit? If you don't advocate it, you're a hypocrite.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Not it isn't.
Please rely to my whole post as I made other points. You are displacing the Father as head of Christ by Christ. You are engaging in communizing God according to a man-made political creed that has no application to divinity.
 

Fred

Well-known member
Please rely to my whole post as I made other points. You are displacing the Father as head of Christ by Christ. You engaging in communizing God according to a man-made political creed that has no application to divinity.
No, because those who espouse heresy like to confuse things once their heresy gets exposed...such as ignoring that John 14:14 teaches Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
 

cjab

Well-known member
No, because those who espouse heresy like to confuse things once their heresy gets exposed...such as ignoring that John 14:14 teaches Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
So you won't address the subject of your own thread and accuse other people of heresy for quoting the bible. John 14:14 is talking about Jesus acting on prayer properly addressed to the Father and interceding with the Father to answer that prayer (obviously in the light of John 14:13, John 16:26, John 16:23, John 15:16, John 5:43 etc).

What is it with Trinitarians that they insist on communizing God, as if Jesus, who came in his Father's name, was now the Father; and yet with respect to others believers, Trinitarians act like a dictatorship? Ever read Animal farm? The pigs insisted that everyone become communists, and then leveraged it as a masquerade to become dictators overs all the other animals.
 
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