Job 38:4, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?

jamesh

Active member
This verse is directed to Job but yet the verse IMPLIES that no human was around when God made this statement. Job:38:4-7 states, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Vs5, Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who stretched the line on it? Vs6, On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone. Vs7, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

What God said to Job is confirmed by Isaiah at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." Since these Scriptures are true would not Jesus Christ also be "excluded" at Job 38:4-7 and at Isaiah 44:24?

So I would like to know how is it possible for the Apostle John to say at John 1:3 that, "All things came into being by Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Or at Colossians 1:16, "For BY HIM all things were CREATED both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM." Even God the Father said of His only begotten Son at Hebrews 1:10 stated, "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands."

How can this "seemingly" glaring contradiction be reconciled by those of you who deny the deity of Jesus Christ?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

eternomade

Well-known member
What God said to Job is confirmed by Isaiah at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." Since these Scriptures are true would not Jesus Christ also be "excluded" at Job 38:4-7 and at Isaiah 44:24?
No, the Word, and also the Spirit of God were also involved in creation.
So I would like to know how is it possible for the Apostle John to say at John 1:3 that, "All things came into being by Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Or at Colossians 1:16, "For BY HIM all things were CREATED both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM." Even God the Father said of His only begotten Son at Hebrews 1:10 stated, "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands."
Creation is an act of YHWH.
How can this "seemingly" glaring contradiction be reconciled by those of you who deny the deity of Jesus Christ?
My question to you is, did the Father and Spirit take part in creation, and if so, how can you reconcile that with Isaiah 44:24?
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
This verse is directed to Job but yet the verse IMPLIES that no human was around when God made this statement. Job:38:4-7 states, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Vs5, Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who stretched the line on it? Vs6, On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone. Vs7, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

What God said to Job is confirmed by Isaiah at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." Since these Scriptures are true would not Jesus Christ also be "excluded" at Job 38:4-7 and at Isaiah 44:24?

Yes it would because the Scriptures also inform us the Father was speaking at Isaiah 44:24.

So I would like to know how is it possible for the Apostle John to say at John 1:3 that, "All things came into being by Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being."

Because John isn't talking about the creation of the heavens and earth. He is talking about everything which came to pass during Jesus' ministry. Read the next two verses and tell us they are about the Genesis act of creation.

Or at Colossians 1:16, "For BY HIM all things were CREATED both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM."

Paul isn't talking about the Genesis creation. He is describing how all things were created anew IN the risen Christ. this is why we can become new creations IN Christ.

Even God the Father said of His only begotten Son at Hebrews 1:10 stated, "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands."

Oh, God the Father is the speaker of this Psalm? Let's check and see.

Do not take me away, my God, in the midst of my days;
your years go on through all generations.
25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.
27 But you remain the same,

and your years will never end.

God the Father said that? The Father is referring to Jesus as his God?

How can this "seemingly" glaring contradiction be reconciled by those of you who deny the deity of Jesus Christ?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
This verse is directed to Job but yet the verse IMPLIES that no human was around when God made this statement. Job:38:4-7 states, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Vs5, Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who stretched the line on it? Vs6, On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone. Vs7, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

What God said to Job is confirmed by Isaiah at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." Since these Scriptures are true would not Jesus Christ also be "excluded" at Job 38:4-7 and at Isaiah 44:24?

So I would like to know how is it possible for the Apostle John to say at John 1:3 that, "All things came into being by Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Or at Colossians 1:16, "For BY HIM all things were CREATED both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM." Even God the Father said of His only begotten Son at Hebrews 1:10 stated, "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands."

How can this "seemingly" glaring contradiction be reconciled by those of you who deny the deity of Jesus Christ?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
I'm already a Trinitarian and I didn't find this too convincing. You need a more universal statement not made to one particular person.
 

jamesh

Active member
Well I'm sorry Dizerner! From now on the next time we meet for lunch I'll be sure and "run by" whatever I write to make sure you approve before I click the post button. :eek: How would you make it "more" convincing?

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Well I'm sorry Dizerner! From now on the next time we meet for lunch I'll be sure and "run by" whatever I write to make sure you approve before I click the post button. :eek: How would you make it "more" convincing?

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
Not sure what I did to deserve sarcasm, but okay.

Maybe something that sounds like a more universal statement. Like "all have sinned."
 

jamesh

Active member
No, the Word, and also the Spirit of God were also involved in creation.

Creation is an act of YHWH.

My question to you is, did the Father and Spirit take part in creation, and if so, how can you reconcile that with Isaiah 44:24?
Well, who is the "Word/Logos eternomade? Jesus Christ is "NOT" the spoken Word of God, rather He's the revelation of God as the "Logos(Gr)/Memra (Ar). The point is that the Bible concerns itself with God's revelation of Himself to man. Just as words convey ideas, so the "Word/Logos" reveals who God is.

The "Word/Logos" is a person and that is why at John 1:2 it says, "He/That one was in the beginning with God. And at vs3, "All things came into being "BY HIM, and apart or without Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

So, since this is true how can Jesus not be around when God said nobody/human was around when He alone created everything at Job 38:4? You then ask me the following question?

"My question to you is, did the Father and Spirit take part in creation, and if so, how can you reconcile that with Isaiah 44:24?" What do you think? What does Genesis 1:2 state? What does Acts 5:4 state? And where at Isaiah 44:24 do you see the word "Father?" It clearly says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer. It also says, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."

So, did the Lord God create all alone and by Himself or not?

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
 

jamesh

Active member
Not sure what I did to deserve sarcasm, but okay.

Maybe something that sounds like a more universal statement. Like "all have sinned."
Yes I was being "sarcastic" for the "criticism." The Apostle Paul said at Philippians 1:18 the following. "What then? Only that in every way, whether in "PRETENSE" or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I will rejoice." The point is the fact that even if someone's" motive is not honorable, Christ is proclaimed. Read the verses before verse 18, 15-17. I assure you my motives are "honorable" and don't take what I said personally, be happy our Savior is mentioned.

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Well, who is the "Word/Logos eternomade? Jesus Christ is "NOT" the spoken Word of God, rather He's the revelation of God as the "Logos(Gr)/Memra (Ar). The point is that the Bible concerns itself with God's revelation of Himself to man. Just as words convey ideas, so the "Word/Logos" reveals who God is.

The "Word/Logos" is a person and that is why at John 1:2 it says, "He/That one was in the beginning with God. And at vs3, "All things came into being "BY HIM, and apart or without Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

So, since this is true how can Jesus not be around when God said nobody/human was around when He alone created everything at Job 38:4? You then ask me the following question?

"My question to you is, did the Father and Spirit take part in creation, and if so, how can you reconcile that with Isaiah 44:24?" What do you think? What does Genesis 1:2 state? What does Acts 5:4 state? And where at Isaiah 44:24 do you see the word "Father?" It clearly says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer. It also says, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."

So, did the Lord God create all alone and by Himself or not?

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
I say that YHWH(Father, Son and Holy Spirit) took part in creation. I would say YHWH(not Jesus) is speaking at Isaiah 44:24(Because of the word "LORD").

Wouldn't it be logical that YHWH is speaking and not 1 "person" of the Trinity?
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Well, who is the "Word/Logos eternomade? Jesus Christ is "NOT" the spoken Word of God, rather He's the revelation of God as the "Logos(Gr)/Memra (Ar). The point is that the Bible concerns itself with God's revelation of Himself to man. Just as words convey ideas, so the "Word/Logos" reveals who God is.

The "Word/Logos" is a person and that is why at John 1:2 it says, "He/That one was in the beginning with God. And at vs3, "All things came into being "BY HIM, and apart or without Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

You are gravely mistaken. The Greek words houtos and autos do not mean the same thing as the English word "HE." The English words "HE" and "HIM" necessarily denotes a male person. These two Greek words do not. For proof, see John 6:60 which uses the three words: logos, houtos, and autou, just as John 1:1-3 does.

In the beginning was the logos...... Houtos was with God in the beginning. All things came to be through autou.....
John 1:1-3


Houtos is a difficult logos; who can listen to autou? John 6:60

THIS is a difficult word; who can listen to IT? John 6:60


So, since this is true how can Jesus not be around when God said nobody/human was around when He alone created everything at Job 38:4? You then ask me the following question?

"My question to you is, did the Father and Spirit take part in creation, and if so, how can you reconcile that with Isaiah 44:24?" What do you think? What does Genesis 1:2 state? What does Acts 5:4 state? And where at Isaiah 44:24 do you see the word "Father?" It clearly says, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer. It also says, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE."

So, did the Lord God create all alone and by Himself or not?

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
 

Dizerner

Well-known member
Yes I was being "sarcastic" for the "criticism." The Apostle Paul said at Philippians 1:18 the following. "What then? Only that in every way, whether in "PRETENSE" or in truth, Christ is proclaimed; and in this I will rejoice." The point is the fact that even if someone's" motive is not honorable, Christ is proclaimed. Read the verses before verse 18, 15-17. I assure you my motives are "honorable" and don't take what I said personally, be happy our Savior is mentioned.

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
I don't see how criticism warrants sarcasm, and why would you claim criticism means I'm not happy "our Savior is mentioned."

I just thought the verse in Job didn't work well. That's it, man. I support you in all other aspects. I think your argument from Isaiah was good.
 

jamesh

Active member
I say that YHWH(Father, Son and Holy Spirit) took part in creation. I would say YHWH(not Jesus) is speaking at Isaiah 44:24(Because of the word "LORD").

Wouldn't it be logical that YHWH is speaking and not 1 "person" of the Trinity?
Where in everything I wrote would lead you to believe that the one being of God or any person of the Trinity was "NOT" involved in creation?

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Where in everything I wrote would lead you to believe that the one being of God or any person of the Trinity was "NOT" involved in creation?

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh
I'm sorry, I thought the point of your post was to prove that Jesus was speaking alone in Isaiah 44:24. Are you saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all speaking there, in unison?
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
This verse is directed to Job but yet the verse IMPLIES that no human was around when God made this statement. Job:38:4-7 states, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Vs5, Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who stretched the line on it? Vs6, On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone. Vs7, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

What God said to Job is confirmed by Isaiah at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." Since these Scriptures are true would not Jesus Christ also be "excluded" at Job 38:4-7 and at Isaiah 44:24?

So I would like to know how is it possible for the Apostle John to say at John 1:3 that, "All things came into being by Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Or at Colossians 1:16, "For BY HIM all things were CREATED both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM." Even God the Father said of His only begotten Son at Hebrews 1:10 stated, "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands."

How can this "seemingly" glaring contradiction be reconciled by those of you who deny the deity of Jesus Christ?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
Yes Jesus would be excluded from actually creating anything himself, for when the NT writers tell us "all things were made in and through Christ" it doesn't mean that he was actually involved in creating anything himself but rather that God's purpose for creating them all would be fulfilled and made a reality through and in Jesus Christ when he would be born.

In other words, God had it in mind and before the creation of all things, that his purpose in creating all things would be fulfilled and have purpose in the first and second coming of Jesus Christ and therefore he created all thing with him in mind.

This is why you will never see even one verse of scripture that actually says, "Jesus created all things" either, for he didn't have any hands on involvement in the creation and that is not what is meant when the scriptures tell us "for in and through him were all things created".

For God also knew in advance of creating anything that disobedience and sin would hurl it all into darkness and therefore, he had devised and determined a remedy for this in the person of Christ Jesus his human Son and before he created anything at all.

Then we have 1 Peter 1:20 "who truly was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was in these last days made manifest for you".

Then also Paul in Romans 8:29 "for those whom he foreknew (his elect) them he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his (human) Son that he might be the firstborn among many (other human) brethren".

Therefore, it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to at least understand that if all of God's elect were predestined to be conformed to Jesus as the human Son and image of the invisible God and which is clearly what Paul is saying here, that Jesus was the firstborn of that predestination before the world was.


Therefore this scripture proves that God's purpose in creation would be and was fulfilled in and through Christ Jesus his human Son and who 1 Peter 1:20 tells us was foreknown before the foundation of the world.


By the way, it would be quite lame for Peter to tell us that Jesus was foreknown before the foundation of the world if he understood and believed that Jesus was Yahweh God himself and wanted us also to believe this.

Oh and by the way, Hebrews 1:10 follows after Hebrews 1:9 where the writer quoted Psalm 45:7 in which the God that anointed the King being spoken of which is Jesus, is now in view in verses 10-11 from Psalm 102: 25-28.

Therefore Hebrews 1:10-11 is not speaking of Jesus but rather about Yahweh who did the anointing of his King Jesus Christ and from verse 9.


So I will now let this all sink in, if it is even possible for any truth at all to pierce through your preconceived and obvious bias on this James.
 
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Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
This verse is directed to Job but yet the verse IMPLIES that no human was around when God made this statement. Job:38:4-7 states, "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Vs5, Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who stretched the line on it? Vs6, On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone. Vs7, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

What God said to Job is confirmed by Isaiah at Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens BY MYSELF, And spreading out the earth ALL ALONE." Since these Scriptures are true would not Jesus Christ also be "excluded" at Job 38:4-7 and at Isaiah 44:24?

So I would like to know how is it possible for the Apostle John to say at John 1:3 that, "All things came into being by Him, and apart (or without Him) nothing came into being that has come into being." Or at Colossians 1:16, "For BY HIM all things were CREATED both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED BY HIM AND FOR HIM." Even God the Father said of His only begotten Son at Hebrews 1:10 stated, "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Thy hands."

How can this "seemingly" glaring contradiction be reconciled by those of you who deny the deity of Jesus Christ?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
Oh and by the way, Hebrews 1:10 follows after Hebrews 1:9 where the writer quoted Psalm 45:7 where the God that anointed the King being spoken of which is Jesus, is now in view in verses 10-11 from Psalm 102: 25-28 and therefore Hebrews 1:10-11 is about Yahweh who did the anointing of the King (Jesus) from verse 9.
 
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