John 1:1 and proper nouns

cawalls

New Member
A proper noun is the name given to something to make it more specific (e.g., Johnathan, Ollie, New York, Monday). Proper nouns are written with capital letters regardless of where they appear in a sentence. Proper nouns contrast with common nouns, which are the words for something (e.g., boy, dog, city, day). From google search.

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 with proper nouns inserted: In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was the Father.

Before Trinitarians cast stones, tell me which proper nouns you would insert?

God bless
 
A proper noun is the name given to something to make it more specific (e.g., Johnathan, Ollie, New York, Monday). Proper nouns are written with capital letters regardless of where they appear in a sentence. Proper nouns contrast with common nouns, which are the words for something (e.g., boy, dog, city, day). From google search.

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 with proper nouns inserted: In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was the Father.

Before Trinitarians cast stones, tell me which proper nouns you would insert?

God bless

I am not a Trinitarian, but I will answer.

John 1:1, In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with Yahweh, and Jesus was Yahweh.

...or...

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with GOD, and the Son was GOD.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

GOD…
English Bibles and I use the word GOD (with all caps) to signify the underlying Hebrew word is YHWH (a proper name) rather than Elohim (a title).
Exodus 23:17 ESV… Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.

…is spirit…
John 4:24 ESV… God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

…and is the only one who is eternal...
Deuteronomy 33:27 ESV… The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, ‘Destroy.’
Isaiah 37:16 ESV… “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.

…GOD is also in the universe as spirit…
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

…and as a human...
1 Timothy 3:16 ESV… Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

…GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God…
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

…GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God…
Luke 1:35 ESV… And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

…and eternal GOD is called God the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV… yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
 
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johnny guitar

Active member
A proper noun is the name given to something to make it more specific (e.g., Johnathan, Ollie, New York, Monday). Proper nouns are written with capital letters regardless of where they appear in a sentence. Proper nouns contrast with common nouns, which are the words for something (e.g., boy, dog, city, day). From google search.

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 with proper nouns inserted: In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was the Father.

Before Trinitarians cast stones, tell me which proper nouns you would insert?

God bless
The SON.
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
A proper noun is the name given to something to make it more specific (e.g., Johnathan, Ollie, New York, Monday). Proper nouns are written with capital letters regardless of where they appear in a sentence. Proper nouns contrast with common nouns, which are the words for something (e.g., boy, dog, city, day). From google search.

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 with proper nouns inserted: In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was the Father.

Before Trinitarians cast stones, tell me which proper nouns you would insert?

God bless
Try understanding this.....in the beginning was your body and your body was with your spirit and your body was cawalls. What this statement is saying is that you,a single individual,consists of multiple entities. You do agree with that don't you? You have a body...a soul....a spirit? Each separate and distinct one from the other? Each with a will of it's own? You agree? Comprehend?

Likewise, Elohim said, "Let Us make man in Our own image after Our likeness." And so He did. Single God, single man.
 
Try understanding this.....in the beginning was your body and your body was with your spirit and your body was cawalls. What this statement is saying is that you,a single individual,consists of multiple entities. You do agree with that don't you? You have a body...a soul....a spirit? Each separate and distinct one from the other? Each with a will of it's own? You agree? Comprehend?

Likewise, Elohim said, "Let Us make man in Our own image after Our likeness." And so He did. Single God, single man.

Are you aware that some Trinitarians would say using the word "separate" implies polytheism?

That is why most Trinitarians only use the word "distinct" and not the word "separate".
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
Are you aware that some Trinitarians would say using the word "separate" implies polytheism?

That is why most Trinitarians only use the word "distinct" and not the word "separate".
Can't help what others choose to think. They will soon learn that their body will be separate from their spirit....one to the dirt, the other to heaven or hell....but clearly they will comprehend "separate". Jesus was separate from the Father while confined to a physical tabernacle for some thirty three years.....if you or others understand. God's plan was so so utterly marvelous.
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
I am not a Trinitarian, but I will answer.

John 1:1, In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with Yahweh, and Jesus was Yahweh.

...or...

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with GOD, and the Son was GOD.

Here is an overview of what I believe...

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

GOD…
English Bibles and I use the word GOD (with all caps) to signify the underlying Hebrew word is YHWH (a proper name) rather than Elohim (a title).
Exodus 23:17 ESV… Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.

…is spirit…
John 4:24 ESV… God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

…and is the only one who is eternal...
Deuteronomy 33:27 ESV… The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, ‘Destroy.’
Isaiah 37:16 ESV… “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.

…GOD is also in the universe as spirit…
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

…and as a human...
1 Timothy 3:16 ESV… Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

…GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God…
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

…GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God…
Luke 1:35 ESV… And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

…and eternal GOD is called God the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV… yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Then explain how the Logos/Son/Jesus has a will of His own and the Holy Spirit has a will of His own and the Father has a will of His own if they are all three the same.
 
Can't help what others choose to think. They will soon learn that their body will be separate from their spirit....one to the dirt, the other to heaven or hell....but clearly they will comprehend "separate". Jesus was separate from the Father while confined to a physical tabernacle for some thirty three years.....if you or others understand. God's plan was so so utterly marvelous.

You do realize that the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is that ALL THREE Persons of the Trinity have NEVER STOPPED being omnipresent. Right?

So Jesus was NOT "confined to a physical tabernacle for some thirty three years".

For example, Jesus said this while he was on Earth...

John 3:13... And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
Then explain how the Logos/Son/Jesus has a will of His own and the Holy Spirit has a will of His own and the Father has a will of His own if they are all three the same.

The Father (eternal GOD) has a will and the Son (GOD in the universe as a human) has a will.

How do YOU explain that the second Person of the Trinity has TWO wills?


P.S. Here is how I describe the distinctions between the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and GOD...

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

GOD

English Bibles and I use the word GOD (with all caps) to signify the underlying Hebrew word is YHWH (a proper name) rather than Elohim (a title).
Exodus 23:17 ESV… Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.

is spirit
John 4:24 ESV… God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

and is the only one who is eternal...
Deuteronomy 33:27 ESV… The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, ‘Destroy.’
Isaiah 37:16 ESV… “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.

GOD is also in the universe as spirit
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

and as a human...
1 Timothy 3:16 ESV… Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God
Luke 1:35 ESV… And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

and eternal GOD is called God the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV… yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
The Father (eternal GOD) has a will and the Son (GOD in the universe as a human) has a will.

How do YOU explain that the second Person of the Trinity has TWO wills?


P.S. Here is how I describe the distinctions between the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and GOD...

GOD is spirit and is the only one who is eternal. GOD is also in the universe as spirit and as a human. GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God, GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God, and eternal GOD is called God the Father.

GOD

English Bibles and I use the word GOD (with all caps) to signify the underlying Hebrew word is YHWH (a proper name) rather than Elohim (a title).
Exodus 23:17 ESV… Three times in the year shall all your males appear before the Lord GOD.

is spirit
John 4:24 ESV… God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

and is the only one who is eternal...
Deuteronomy 33:27 ESV… The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, ‘Destroy.’
Isaiah 37:16 ESV… “O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth.

GOD is also in the universe as spirit
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

and as a human...
1 Timothy 3:16 ESV… Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.

GOD in the universe as spirit is called the Spirit of God
Genesis 1:2 ESV… The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

GOD in the universe as a human is called the Son of God
Luke 1:35 ESV… And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

and eternal GOD is called God the Father.
1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV… yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Yes, the body has a will of it's own and soul has a will of it's own and spirit has a will of it's own. When the three are in harmony/agreement and..... AND loving the Lord your God all is well. See that is the problem with many of God's children. For example, the body and soul wants to and does enjoy some soft porn action flicks on Saturday evening, perhaps taking in some adult beverages while doing so. The spirit does not really want to do that, would rather read the Bible and prepare for Church service tomorrow. Nevertheless , the body and soul win out and they watch the soft porn action flick, you know, the kind filled with excessive gory violence, foul language, soft porn....yea, that kind of movie common today. And on Sunday morning they rise, go to Church worship, sing songs of praise etc. And they think I am righteous....all is well. All is not well. They are not loving the Lord their God with all their body and soul and spirit......obviously. Just curious....do you think if Jesus was visiting them on Saturday evening they would invite Jesus to have a beer and watch the vulgar action flick? Don't think so! But that is what they do, they watch the vulgar movies, offend themselves with their eyes....and they think they have the presence of Jesus within! Such are deceived children of God and many are they.
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
You do realize that the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is that ALL THREE Persons of the Trinity have NEVER STOPPED being omnipresent. Right?

So Jesus was NOT "confined to a physical tabernacle for some thirty three years".

For example, Jesus said this while he was on Earth...

John 3:13... And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Don't care about "orthodoxy". Just telling your the truth....and you have the free will to believe what you wish and wish it to be.
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
And YOU say the truth is that the second Person of the Trinity STOPPED being omnipresent for thirty three or so years.

Correct?
Yes, Ps. 8:5/ Heb.2:7 The Son made lower than the angels. The reason Jesus could truthfully say, "But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, but only the Father."
 
Yes, Ps. 8:5/ Heb.2:7 The Son made lower than the angels. The reason Jesus could truthfully say, "But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, NOR THE SON, but only the Father."

So "the LORD" in the following verse does NOT include the second Person of the Trinity (just the first and third Persons).

Malachi 3:6... For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Correct?

And just for clarification...

When the dove landed on Jesus at his baptism...


Did the third Person of the Trinity STOP being omnipresent for that moment?
 

Oldsaint24

Active member
So "the LORD" in the following verse does NOT include the second Person of the Trinity (just the first and third Persons).

Malachi 3:6... For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Correct?

And just for clarification...

When the dove landed on Jesus at his baptism...


Did the third Person of the Trinity STOP being omnipresent for that moment?
No, the Holy Spirit indwelling Jesus is no different that indwelling all the obedient/worthy children of God of this age. Because the Holy Spirit indwells a worthy child of God does not make Him cease being omnipresent.. Jesus taking residence in a temporary tabernacle was for the plan of salvation and becoming the Lamb of God.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
So "the LORD" in the following verse does NOT include the second Person of the Trinity (just the first and third Persons).

Malachi 3:6... For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Correct?

And just for clarification...

When the dove landed on Jesus at his baptism...


Did the third Person of the Trinity STOP being omnipresent for that moment?
False to both questions.
 

TibiasDad

Active member
You do realize that the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is that ALL THREE Persons of the Trinity have NEVER STOPPED being omnipresent. Right?

So Jesus was NOT "confined to a physical tabernacle for some thirty three years".

For example, Jesus said this while he was on Earth...

John 3:13... And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Not true! Jesus emptied himself of using his natural attributes to limit himself to only human capacities. (Phil 2) He maintained the capacity to be omnipresent but chose to not exercise that right! As a human, he was only physically able to be in one place at a time.

Cambridge Bible commentary puts it this way:

[which is in heaven] These words are omitted in the best MSS. If they are retained, the meaning is ‘Whose proper home is heaven.’ Or the Greek participle may be the imperfect tense (comp. John 6:62, John 9:25, John 17:5), which was in heaven before the Incarnation.

Doug
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
You do realize that the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is that ALL THREE Persons of the Trinity have NEVER STOPPED being omnipresent. Right?

So Jesus was NOT "confined to a physical tabernacle for some thirty three years".

For example, Jesus said this while he was on Earth...

John 3:13... And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Believers are with Christ where he is in the very same way.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
A proper noun is the name given to something to make it more specific (e.g., Johnathan, Ollie, New York, Monday). Proper nouns are written with capital letters regardless of where they appear in a sentence. Proper nouns contrast with common nouns, which are the words for something (e.g., boy, dog, city, day). From google search.

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:1 with proper nouns inserted: In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with the Father and Jesus was the Father.

Before Trinitarians cast stones, tell me which proper nouns you would insert?

God bless

The Trinitarian method here is to resort to eisegesis and imagine their doctrine into the text.

Step two is to pretend they aren't practicing eisegesis.

Step three is to make up an excuse for their indiscretion just in case an excuse for the lie might be necessary.
 
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