John 1:1b

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.

Some Carm. posters deny that τὸν Θεόν here is the Father. I can only attribute such a troubling denial to blindness by Satanic bondage. The grammar at 1 John 1:2, which reiterates this clause, makes it clear that τὸν Θεόν is the Father in Heaven.

καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἐφανερώθη, καὶ ἑωράκαμεν καὶ μαρτυροῦμεν καὶ ἀπαγγέλλομεν ὑμῖν τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον, ἥτις ἦν πρὸς τὸν Πατέρα καὶ ἐφανερώθη ἡμῖν

Here is my reading of John Chapter 1 which I recently recorded, for more context.
 
Last edited:

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Some Carm. posters deny that τὸν Θεόν here is the Father.

WOW.

I can only attribute such a troubling denial to blindness by Satanic bondage. The grammar at 1 John 1:2, which reiterates this clause, makes it clear that τὸν Θεόν is the Father in Heaven.

Yes, obviously.

Here is my reading of John Chapter 1 which I recently recorded, for more context.
 
I've looked at the entire GNT and maybe half of the LXX concerning the following syntax : a singular substantive + to be verb + πρὸς + another singular substantive in the accusative, and here are the results --

(1) John 1:1b καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν

(2) Genesis 15:1 μετὰ δὲ τὰ ῥήματα ταῦτα ἐγενήθη ῥῆμα κυρίου πρὸς Αβραμ ἐν ὁράματι λέγων μὴ φοβοῦ Αβραμ ἐγὼ ὑπερασπίζω σου ὁ μισθός σου πολὺς ἔσται σφόδρα

(3) Genesis 15:4 καὶ εὐθὺς φωνὴ κυρίου ἐγένετο πρὸς αὐτὸν λέγων οὐ κληρονομήσει σε οὗτος ἀλλ᾽ ὃς ἐξελεύσεται ἐκ σοῦ οὗτος κληρονομήσει σε

(4) 1 Ch. 17:3 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῇ νυκτὶ ἐκείνῃ καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Ναθαν λέγων

(5) 2 Ch. 11:2 καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν ἄνθρωπον τοῦ θεοῦ λέγων

(6) 2 Ch. 12:7 καὶ ἐν τῷ ἰδεῗν κύριον ὅτι ἐνετράπησαν καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν λέγων ἐνετράπησαν οὐ καταφθερῶ αὐτούς καὶ δώσω αὐτοὺς ὡς μικρὸν εἰς σωτηρίαν καὶ οὐ μὴ στάξῃ ὁ θυμός μου ἐν Ιερουσαλημ

(7) Psalm 69:13 ἐγὼ δὲ τῇ προσευχῇ μου πρὸς σέ κύριε καιρὸς εὐδοκίας ὁ θεός ἐν τῷ πλήθει τοῦ ἐλέους σου ἐπάκουσόν μου ἐν ἀληθείᾳ τῆς σωτηρίας σου

(8) Proverbs 21:30 οὐκ ἔστιν σοφία οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνδρεία οὐκ ἔστιν βουλὴ πρὸς τὸν ἀσεβῆ

(9) Isaiah 17:4 πρὸς ἑσπέραν ἔσται πένθος πρὶν ἢ πρωὶ καὶ οὐκ ἔσται αὕτη ἡ μερὶς τῶν ὑμᾶς προνομευσάντων καὶ κληρονομία τοῗς ὑμᾶς κληρονομήσασιν

(10) Isaiah 19:19 τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ ἔσται θυσιαστήριον τῷ κυρίῳ ἐν χώρᾳ Αἰγυπτίων καὶ στήλη πρὸς τὸ ὅριον αὐτῆς τῷ κυρίῳ

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If we leave John 1:1b out of the equation , not one of the rest of the 9 examples show that a person is with another person .
 
The following is interesting because there are two instances of ἐγένετο in this verse:

1 Ch. 17:3 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῇ νυκτὶ ἐκείνῃ καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Ναθαν λέγων

"And it came to be on that same night," similarly we have "and the Word of the Lord came to be before Nathan..... "
 

Roger Thornhill

Active member
I've looked at the entire GNT and maybe half of the LXX concerning the following syntax : a singular substantive + to be verb + πρὸς + another singular substantive in the accusative, and here are the results --

(1) John 1:1b καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν

(2) Genesis 15:1 μετὰ δὲ τὰ ῥήματα ταῦτα ἐγενήθη ῥῆμα κυρίου πρὸς Αβραμ ἐν ὁράματι λέγων μὴ φοβοῦ Αβραμ ἐγὼ ὑπερασπίζω σου ὁ μισθός σου πολὺς ἔσται σφόδρα

(3) Genesis 15:4 καὶ εὐθὺς φωνὴ κυρίου ἐγένετο πρὸς αὐτὸν λέγων οὐ κληρονομήσει σε οὗτος ἀλλ᾽ ὃς ἐξελεύσεται ἐκ σοῦ οὗτος κληρονομήσει σε

(4) 1 Ch. 17:3 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῇ νυκτὶ ἐκείνῃ καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Ναθαν λέγων

(5) 2 Ch. 11:2 καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν ἄνθρωπον τοῦ θεοῦ λέγων

(6) 2 Ch. 12:7 καὶ ἐν τῷ ἰδεῗν κύριον ὅτι ἐνετράπησαν καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν λέγων ἐνετράπησαν οὐ καταφθερῶ αὐτούς καὶ δώσω αὐτοὺς ὡς μικρὸν εἰς σωτηρίαν καὶ οὐ μὴ στάξῃ ὁ θυμός μου ἐν Ιερουσαλημ

(7) Psalm 69:13 ἐγὼ δὲ τῇ προσευχῇ μου πρὸς σέ κύριε καιρὸς εὐδοκίας ὁ θεός ἐν τῷ πλήθει τοῦ ἐλέους σου ἐπάκουσόν μου ἐν ἀληθείᾳ τῆς σωτηρίας σου

(8) Proverbs 21:30 οὐκ ἔστιν σοφία οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνδρεία οὐκ ἔστιν βουλὴ πρὸς τὸν ἀσεβῆ

(9) Isaiah 17:4 πρὸς ἑσπέραν ἔσται πένθος πρὶν ἢ πρωὶ καὶ οὐκ ἔσται αὕτη ἡ μερὶς τῶν ὑμᾶς προνομευσάντων καὶ κληρονομία τοῗς ὑμᾶς κληρονομήσασιν

(10) Isaiah 19:19 τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ ἔσται θυσιαστήριον τῷ κυρίῳ ἐν χώρᾳ Αἰγυπτίων καὶ στήλη πρὸς τὸ ὅριον αὐτῆς τῷ κυρίῳ

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If we leave John 1:1b out of the equation , not one of the rest of the 9 examples show that a person is with another person .

1. I don't buy your substitution of γινομαι for ειμι.
2. I don't claim that this syntax proves that the subject must be a person who is with the someone in the accusative. I don't find any exceptions to what BDAG published with ειμι and neither have you.

I do have other grammatical points to bring up in the passage and am prepared to demonstrate them with someone who considers the Bible to be the sole source of doctrine and who defends their own beliefs without appealing to theology, philosophy or extra biblical sources.

I don't believe you fit that profile.
 

Roger Thornhill

Active member
I've looked at the entire GNT and maybe half of the LXX concerning the following syntax : a singular substantive + to be verb + πρὸς + another singular substantive in the accusative, and here are the results --

(1) John 1:1b καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν

(2) Genesis 15:1 μετὰ δὲ τὰ ῥήματα ταῦτα ἐγενήθη ῥῆμα κυρίου πρὸς Αβραμ ἐν ὁράματι λέγων μὴ φοβοῦ Αβραμ ἐγὼ ὑπερασπίζω σου ὁ μισθός σου πολὺς ἔσται σφόδρα

(3) Genesis 15:4 καὶ εὐθὺς φωνὴ κυρίου ἐγένετο πρὸς αὐτὸν λέγων οὐ κληρονομήσει σε οὗτος ἀλλ᾽ ὃς ἐξελεύσεται ἐκ σοῦ οὗτος κληρονομήσει σε

(4) 1 Ch. 17:3 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῇ νυκτὶ ἐκείνῃ καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Ναθαν λέγων

(5) 2 Ch. 11:2 καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν ἄνθρωπον τοῦ θεοῦ λέγων

(6) 2 Ch. 12:7 καὶ ἐν τῷ ἰδεῗν κύριον ὅτι ἐνετράπησαν καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν λέγων ἐνετράπησαν οὐ καταφθερῶ αὐτούς καὶ δώσω αὐτοὺς ὡς μικρὸν εἰς σωτηρίαν καὶ οὐ μὴ στάξῃ ὁ θυμός μου ἐν Ιερουσαλημ

(7) Psalm 69:13 ἐγὼ δὲ τῇ προσευχῇ μου πρὸς σέ κύριε καιρὸς εὐδοκίας ὁ θεός ἐν τῷ πλήθει τοῦ ἐλέους σου ἐπάκουσόν μου ἐν ἀληθείᾳ τῆς σωτηρίας σου

(8) Proverbs 21:30 οὐκ ἔστιν σοφία οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνδρεία οὐκ ἔστιν βουλὴ πρὸς τὸν ἀσεβῆ

(9) Isaiah 17:4 πρὸς ἑσπέραν ἔσται πένθος πρὶν ἢ πρωὶ καὶ οὐκ ἔσται αὕτη ἡ μερὶς τῶν ὑμᾶς προνομευσάντων καὶ κληρονομία τοῗς ὑμᾶς κληρονομήσασιν

(10) Isaiah 19:19 τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ ἔσται θυσιαστήριον τῷ κυρίῳ ἐν χώρᾳ Αἰγυπτίων καὶ στήλη πρὸς τὸ ὅριον αὐτῆς τῷ κυρίῳ

----------

If we leave John 1:1b out of the equation , not one of the rest of the 9 examples show that a person is with another person .

There is no linguistic reason to exclude plural subjects. It reminds me of Sharp's as that is contrived to eliminate plurals as well to arrive at their preconceived notion.

On the other hand, I do believe translation Greek should be eliminated for a conservative study.
 
I've noticed that the third person aorist form of γίνομαι (namely ἐγένετο) is never an action or a dynamic verb, like ἦλθεν. So it's range is virtually identical to that of ἦν. The only difference is that ἐγένετο has the sense "came to be" while ἦν means simply "was." In some contexts the two senses are interchangeable, but obviously in others they are not. In John 1:1b the two would have the same basic meaning, since ἦν by itself does not connote eternity, so that at some point in the past the Word had to have come to be with God. Here are some examples of ἐγένετο..

Here's a sampler:

Καὶ ἐγένετο ὅτε ἐτέλεσεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς τοὺς λόγους τούτους, ἐξεπλήσσοντο οἱ ὄχλοι ἐπὶ τῇ διδαχῇ αὐτοῦ·
Matt. 7:22

Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν ἐκείναις ταῖς ἡμέραις ἦλθεν Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ Ναζαρὲτ τῆς Γαλιλαίας καὶ ἐβαπτίσθη εἰς τὸν Ἰορδάνην ὑπὸ Ἰωάνου
Mark 1:9

.Καὶ ὅτε ἐγένετο ἐτῶν δώδεκα, ἀναβαινόντων αὐτῶν κατὰ τὸ ἔθος τῆς ἑορτῆς,
Luke 2:42

προσελθόντες δὲ διήγειραν αὐτὸν λέγοντες Ἐπιστάτα ἐπιστάτα, ἀπολλύμεθα. ὁ δὲ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ τῷ κλύδωνι τοῦ ὕδατος· καὶ ἐπαύσαντο, καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη.
Luke 8:24

πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν
John 1:3

Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος, ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάνης·
John 1:6

ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν, καὶ ὁ κόσμος δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω.
John 1:10

Καὶ ὁ Λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ Πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.
John 1:14

ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωυσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.
John 1:17

Ταῦτα ἐν Βηθανίᾳ ἐγένετο πέραν τοῦ Ἰορδάνου, ὅπου ἦν ὁ Ἰωάνης βαπτίζων.
John 1:28

καὶ ἐγένετο ἄφνω ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἦχος ὥσπερ φερομένης πνοῆς βιαίας καὶ ἐπλήρωσεν ὅλον τὸν οἶκον οὗ ἦσαν καθήμενοι,
Acts 2:2

Καὶ τῷ ἀγγέλῳ τῆς ἐν Σμύρνῃ ἐκκλησίας γράψον Τάδε λέγει ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος, ὃς ἐγένετο νεκρὸς καὶ ἔζησεν
Rev. 2:8

Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὴν σφραγῖδα τὴν ἕκτην, καὶ σεισμὸς μέγας ἐγένετο, καὶ ὁ ἥλιος ἐγένετο μέλας ὡς σάκκος τρίχινος, καὶ ἡ σελήνη ὅλη ἐγένετο ὡς αἷμα,
Rev. 6:12


etc. etc.

Best wishes to all,
 

Roger Thornhill

Active member
I've noticed that the third person aorist form of γίνομαι (namely ἐγένετο) is never an action or a dynamic verb, like ἦλθεν. So it's range is virtually identical to that of ἦν. The only difference is that ἐγένετο has the sense "came to be" while ἦν means simply "was." In some contexts the two sense are interchangeable, but obviously in others they are not. In John 1:1b the two would have the same sense, since ἦν by itself does not connote eternity, so that at some point in the past the Word had to come to be with God. Here are some examples of ἐγένετο..

Here's a sampler:

Καὶ ἐγένετο ὅτε ἐτέλεσεν ὁ Ἰησοῦς τοὺς λόγους τούτους, ἐξεπλήσσοντο οἱ ὄχλοι ἐπὶ τῇ διδαχῇ αὐτοῦ·
Matt. 7:22

Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν ἐκείναις ταῖς ἡμέραις ἦλθεν Ἰησοῦς ἀπὸ Ναζαρὲτ τῆς Γαλιλαίας καὶ ἐβαπτίσθη εἰς τὸν Ἰορδάνην ὑπὸ Ἰωάνου
Mark 1:9

.Καὶ ὅτε ἐγένετο ἐτῶν δώδεκα, ἀναβαινόντων αὐτῶν κατὰ τὸ ἔθος τῆς ἑορτῆς,
Luke 2:42

προσελθόντες δὲ διήγειραν αὐτὸν λέγοντες Ἐπιστάτα ἐπιστάτα, ἀπολλύμεθα. ὁ δὲ διεγερθεὶς ἐπετίμησεν τῷ ἀνέμῳ καὶ τῷ κλύδωνι τοῦ ὕδατος· καὶ ἐπαύσαντο, καὶ ἐγένετο γαλήνη.
Luke 8:24

πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν
John 1:3

Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος, ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ Θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάνης·
John 1:6

ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν, καὶ ὁ κόσμος δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω.
John 1:10

Καὶ ὁ Λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ Πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.
John 1:14

ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωυσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.
John 1:17

Ταῦτα ἐν Βηθανίᾳ ἐγένετο πέραν τοῦ Ἰορδάνου, ὅπου ἦν ὁ Ἰωάνης βαπτίζων.
John 1:28

καὶ ἐγένετο ἄφνω ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἦχος ὥσπερ φερομένης πνοῆς βιαίας καὶ ἐπλήρωσεν ὅλον τὸν οἶκον οὗ ἦσαν καθήμενοι,
Acts 2:2

Καὶ τῷ ἀγγέλῳ τῆς ἐν Σμύρνῃ ἐκκλησίας γράψον Τάδε λέγει ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος, ὃς ἐγένετο νεκρὸς καὶ ἔζησεν
Rev. 2:8

Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὴν σφραγῖδα τὴν ἕκτην, καὶ σεισμὸς μέγας ἐγένετο, καὶ ὁ ἥλιος ἐγένετο μέλας ὡς σάκκος τρίχινος, καὶ ἡ σελήνη ὅλη ἐγένετο ὡς αἷμα,
Rev. 6:12


etc. etc.

Best wishes to all,

Do any instances of γινομαι signify more than the change itself?
 
Γινομαι is not relevant to John 1:1 at all. There are no textual variants with it.

Γινομαι is not a stative verb. It always signifies a change of some sort. Ειμι never does.
The only sort of “change” implied by ἐγένετο at 1 Ch. 17:3 is that the Word of God “came to be” with the prophet. So unless you want to argue that ἦν in John 1:1b denotes eternity, the Logos also came to be with God at some point. The only difference is that ἦν does not stress this in John 1:1b though it certainly implies it.
 

Roger Thornhill

Active member
The only sort of “change” implied by ἐγένετο at 1 Ch. 17:3 is that the Word of God “came to be” with the prophet. So unless you want to argue that ἦν in John 1:1b denotes eternity, the Logos also came to be with God at some point. The only difference is that ἦν does not stress this in John 1:1b though it certainly implies it.

Ην does not denote eternity. Look at John 1:10. Is that what this is about? Γινομαι is frequently used for something that appears or happens. Look at John 1:6.
 
You appear to imply that if I believe the Word came into existence I should agree that ην is like γινομαι.

I don't change my view of grammar based on my belief. I support my belief with a stative ειμι at John 1.

Alas. You should at least agree that ην is like ἐγένετο. Compare like with like. You should come to understand that not all the different tenses of γινομαι have the same range. Both ἐγένετο and ην are , for instance, always stative "to be" verbs.

Besides I've given examples with ειμι also. For instance,

Proverbs 21:30 οὐκ ἔστιν σοφία οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνδρεία οὐκ ἔστιν βουλὴ πρὸς τὸν ἀσεβῆ
 

Roger Thornhill

Active member
Alas. You should at least agree that ην is like ἐγένετο. Compare like with like. You should come to understand that not all the different tenses of γινομαι have the same range. Both ἐγένετο and ην are , for instance, always stative "to be" verbs.

Besides I've given examples with ειμι also. For instance,

Proverbs 21:30 οὐκ ἔστιν σοφία οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνδρεία οὐκ ἔστιν βουλὴ πρὸς τὸν ἀσεβῆ

I suggest you quote a valid grammar. Εγενετο is not stative.

A state with ειμι does not include the beginning or end. Εγενετο is a change.

They are not the same.
 

Roger Thornhill

Active member
BDAG in the entry for Γινομαι


A verb with numerous nuances relating to
being and manner of being. Its contrast to the more static term εἰμί can be seen in Kaibel 595, 5 οὐκ ἤμην καὶ ἐγενόμην=I was not and then I came to be (cp. Ath. 4, 2 in 3 below).

And a general statement from Wikipedia:

According to some linguistics theories, a stative verb is one that describes a state of being, in contrast to a dynamic verb, which describes an action. The difference can be categorized by saying that stative verbs describe situations that are static or unchanging throughout their entire duration, whereas dynamic verbs describe processes that entail change over time.
 
BDAG in the entry for Γινομαι


A verb with numerous nuances relating to
being and manner of being. Its contrast to the more static term εἰμί can be seen in Kaibel 595, 5 οὐκ ἤμην καὶ ἐγενόμην=I was not and then I came to be (cp. Ath. 4, 2 in 3 below).

And a general statement from Wikipedia:

According to some linguistics theories, a stative verb is one that describes a state of being, in contrast to a dynamic verb, which describes an action. The difference can be categorized by saying that stative verbs describe situations that are static or unchanging throughout their entire duration, whereas dynamic verbs describe processes that entail change over time.
I rest my case! So a major difference beteeen stative vs dynamic verbs is in whether or not they can use the progressive aspect. Εγενετο does not have such an aspect.
 

Roger Thornhill

Active member
Sure it does.

Look at εγενετο at John 1:6 and the parallel έρχομαι in verse 7. John came. The beginning of his arrival is visible. That's not static or stative.
 
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