John 1:3-4 - All things created through the Word except for the Word

Roger Thornhill · Jul 29, 2021

I just noticed that both the Greek χωρίς and English “apart from” can have the sense of “besides” or “except for.”

See Mt 14:21 and IEph 11:2.

So John 1:3-4 would read, "All things were made through him and apart from (i.e. besides) him nothing was made."

That's grammatical, co-textual and contextual as well. It is also unaffected by the punctuation issue in that verse.

Thoughts?

jamesh · Jul 30, 2021

What's there to think about Roger? Unitarian Thayer says the following: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g5565/kjv/tr/0-1/

Why can't you accept the clear meaning of Jesus Christ identified and presented as the creator at John 1:1-3, or at Colossians 1:16 as well as other verses I could quote.

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh

Roger Thornhill · Jul 30, 2021

jamesh said:
What's there to think about Roger? Unitarian Thayer says the following: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g5565/kjv/tr/0-1/

Why can't you accept the clear meaning of Jesus Christ identified and presented as the creator at John 1:1-3, or at Colossians 1:16 as well as other verses I could quote.

IN GOD THE SON,
jamesh

I don't claim mine is the only view, and if you want me to believe that the Son is the creator it will take more than citing Strongs. As a matter of fact, Louw-Nida says he is not the creator at their entry for χωρὶς

χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν 'not one thing came into existence without him' Jn 1.3. It would be wrong to restructure Jn 1.3 to read 'he made everything in all creation,' for in the Scriptures God is spoken of as the Creator, but the creation was done 'through the Word.'

So we could also render this as:

All things were made [by God] through him and apart from (i.e. besides) him nothing was made [by God]."

I don't claim this is the only view. I do claim it is grammatical, co-textual and contextual.

So if you claim that John 1:1-4 teaches that the Son is the eternal God and Creator and that this is the only possible interpretation then you bear the burden of proof.

civic · Jul 30, 2021

Roger Thornhill said:
I don't claim mine is the only view, and if you want me to believe that the Son is the creator it will take more than citing Strongs. As a matter of fact, Louw-Nida says he is not the creator at their entry for χωρὶς

So we could also render this as:

All things were made [by God] through him and apart from (i.e. besides) him nothing was made [by God]."

I don't claim this is the only view. I do claim it is grammatical, co-textual and contextual.

So if you claim that John 1:1-4 teaches that the Son is the eternal God and Creator and that this is the only possible interpretation then you bear the burden of proof.

It doesn't matter what any outside source says as that is the appeal to authority fallacy. John 1. Col 1 and Heb 1 attribute creation to the Son. A simple reading of the text without any lexicon reveals that obvious truth. And you do not need to know Greek to understand the truth in those passages which is another fallacious argument.

hope this helps !!!

Roger Thornhill · Jul 30, 2021

civic said:
It doesn't matter what any outside source says as that is the appeal to authority fallacy. John 1. Col 1 and Heb 1 attribute creation to the Son. A simple reading of the text without any lexicon reveals that obvious truth. And you do not need to know Greek to understand the truth in those passages which is another fallacious argument.

hope this helps !!!

Unless you are reading the Greek for yourself you are indeed appealing to an outside source.

civic · Jul 30, 2021

Roger Thornhill said:
Unless you are reading the Greek for yourself you are indeed appealing to an outside source.

I was studying the Greek in those passages back in 1985 with my Pastor who was my next-door neighbor in our apartment and he was a Greek professor from FTS in So-Cal. He is fluent in 7 languages.

next..........................................................................................

Roger Thornhill · Jul 30, 2021

civic said:
I was studying the Greek in those passages back in 1985 with my Pastor who was my next-door neighbor in our apartment and he was a Greek professor from FTS in So-Cal. He is fluent in 7 languages.

next..........................................................................................

I am glad you were exposed to Greek. It's a fine endeavor.

But you seem to miss understand my posts. Didn't I say that this view is just one possible view? I am not trying to force anyone to believe this.

But it seems you and @jamesh both want to force your view on me by insisting it's not possible. That you lived next door to your Pastor is not a convincing argument.

So, what grammatical or contextual reason makes my rendering impossible?

All things were made [by God] through him and apart from (i.e. besides) him nothing was made [by God]."

civic · Jul 30, 2021

Roger Thornhill said:
I am glad you were exposed to Greek. It's a fine endeavor.

But you seem to miss understand my posts. Didn't I say that this view is just one possible view? I am not trying to force anyone to believe this.

But it seems you and @jamesh both want to force your view on me by insisting it's not possible. That you lived next door to your Pastor is not a convincing argument.

So, what grammatical or contextual reason makes my rendering impossible?

All things were made [by God] through him and apart from (i.e. besides) him nothing was made [by God]."

So are you referring to the WORD as the HIM (αὐτοῦ) in brackets ? yes or no

And where did you learn to read Greek ? What seminary ?

Roger Thornhill · Jul 30, 2021

civic said:
So are you referring to the WORD as the HIM (αὐτοῦ) in brackets ? yes or no

The antecedent of the pronoun αὐτοῦ in John 1:3 is the Word, yes. It's not God, the only other person in the prologue at this point.

civic · Jul 30, 2021

Roger Thornhill said:
The antecedent of the pronoun αὐτοῦ in John 1:3 is the Word, yes. It's not God, the only other person in the prologue at this point.

He is God as per John 1:1c.

Roger Thornhill · Jul 30, 2021

civic said:
He is God as per John 1:1c.

That is an English rendering. So you rely on an external source for that.

In the Greek, θεος is predicated to him. Even Trinitarian scholars are not agreed as to what that means or how to render it.

And it certainly does not prove that the Word is the eternal Creator and does not affect my rendering:

All things were made [by God] through him and apart from (i.e. besides) him nothing was made [by God].

civic · Jul 30, 2021

Roger Thornhill said:
That is an English rendering. So you rely on an external source for that.

In the Greek, θεος is predicated to him. Even Trinitarian scholars are not agreed as to what that means or how to render it.

And it certainly does not prove that the Word is the eternal Creator and does not affect my rendering:

All things were made [by God] through him and apart from (i.e. besides) him nothing was made [by God].

Like burger king says: have it your way !

I could care less who says what. You can only appeal to authority which reveals the weakness with your arguments.

Roger Thornhill · Jul 30, 2021

civic said:
Like burger king says: have it your way !

I could care less who says what. You can only appeal to authority which reveals the weakness with your arguments.

I did not appeal to authority. I described the Greek grammar as predicating θεος (It's in a predicate nominative constructuon) to the Word and pointing out that your fellow Trinitarians don't agree on what that means and how to render it. So when you say J 1:1c says the Word is God, it is you who appeals to authority.

I don't appeal to anyone for the following which is grammatical, co-textual and contextual. It's directly from the Greek.

All things were made [by God] through him and apart from (i.e. besides) him nothing was made [by God].

Our Lord's God · Aug 1, 2021

Roger Thornhill said:
I just noticed that both the Greek χωρίς and English “apart from” can have the sense of “besides” or “except for.”

See Mt 14:21 and IEph 11:2.

So John 1:3-4 would read, "All things were made through him and apart from (i.e. besides) him nothing was made."

That's grammatical, co-textual and contextual as well. It is also unaffected by the punctuation issue in that verse.

Thoughts?

Created? Is that always how you understand this Greek word?

Roger Thornhill · Aug 1, 2021

Our Lord's God said:
Created? Is that always how you understand this Greek word?

I did not use the word create. Can you be more explicit?

Our Lord's God · Aug 3, 2021

Roger Thornhill said:
I did not use the word create. Can you be more explicit?

See the title of this thread.

Roger Thornhill · Aug 3, 2021

Our Lord's God said:
See the title of this thread.

Ahh, I said:

I just noticed that both the Greek χωρίς and English “apart from” can have the sense of “besides” or “except for.”
...

You said:
Created? Is that always how you understand this Greek word?

What Greek word? You are aware that when you say "this Greek word" it refers to the Greek word just used in the thread???

Are you asking if χωρίς means created? I would not expect that question from what has been said.

You need to be more specific. May I suggest you dispense from using pronouns in English to make points? It's very ambiguous and impossible to follow your train of thought.

Our Lord's God · Aug 3, 2021

Roger Thornhill said:
Ahh, I said:

You said:
Created? Is that always how you understand this Greek word?

What Greek word? You are aware that when you say "this Greek word" it refers to the Greek word just used in the thread???

Are you asking if χωρίς means created? I would not expect that question from what has been said.

You need to be more specific. May I suggest you dispense from using pronouns in English to make points? It's very ambiguous and impossible to follow your train of thought.

Read the title of your thread again. Here is what it says: