John 12:32

Theo1689

Well-known member
Here is some interesting facts about John 12:32

1) The textual data... There are two significant variant readings of the text:

πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν (“I will draw all [people] to myself”)
πάντα ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν (“I will draw every [person or everything] to myself”)

2) It is important to note that the adjective ("pantas") is substantive, meaning that it doesn't have an explicit referent, but is implied. That is to say, the term "men" is not explicitly in the text. Too many people try to interpret the text as if it was, and as if it meant, "individuals", which simply cannot be justified by the text itself. It is an ASSUMPTION that is INTERPRETED from the the text.

3) Greek scholar Philip Comfort had this to say:

"Because of this ambiguity, scribes may have added a sigma to παντα. In either case, it seems that Jesus had people in mind when he spoke of drawing all to himself by being lifted up on the cross. Of course, this drawing could suggest a kind of universal reconciliation of all things, as in Col 1:20. But the major focus of the metaphor in context is that Jesus would attract all kinds of people (Jews and Gentiles) to himself by his death on the cross and subsequent glorification."

4) Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson had this to say:

"The magnetism of the Cross is now known of all men, however little they understand the mystery of the Cross. By “all men” (pantas) Jesus does not mean every individual man, for some, as Simeon said (Luke 2:34) are repelled by Christ, but this is the way that Greeks (verse 22) can and will come to Christ, by the way of the Cross, the only way to the Father (14:6)."

5) Albert Barnes had this to say:

"All men. I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross,"

6) John Wesley had this to say:

I will draw all menGentiles as well as Jews.

It appears that Wesley agrees with everyone else, that "all men" refers to "kinds" of men, people "groups" (ie. "Gentiles", "Jews"), rather than individuals.

7) Bible Knowledge Commentary:

"Jesus’ words, When I am lifted up from the earth, refer not to His Ascension but to His crucifixion (cf. 3:14; 8:28). He knew how He would die—by being “lifted up” on a cross. Jews, however, normally stoned those they considered worthy of death (cf. Stephen’s death, Acts 7:58-60)."
"Jesus said that at the cross He would draw all men to Himself.
He did not mean everybody will be saved for He made it clear that some will be lost (John 5:28-29). If the drawing by the Son is the same as that of the Father (6:44), it means He will draw indiscriminately. Those saved will include not only Jews, but also those from every tribe, language, people, and nation."

So again, "Kinds" of men, people "groups", not "individuals", is intended here.

8) John Calvin:

"I will draw all men to myself. The word all, which he employs, must be understood to refer to the children of God, who belong to his flock. Yet I agree with Chrysostom, who says that Christ used the universal term, all, because the Church was to be gathered equally from among Gentiles and Jews, according to that saying, 'There shall be one shepherd, and one sheepfold,' (John 10:16.)"

9) Barton W. Johnson:

"John 12:32. If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me. Lifted up, first, to the cross; second, from the grave; third, to heaven and the eternal throne. The crucified, risen and exalted Savior becomes a power to draw all men, Jews and Gentiles, all nations. Christ does not declare that he will draw every individual, but all races. The great thought is the power of his death and resurrection."

10) Adam Clarke:

"Verse 32. I-will draw all men unto me. After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles."

Again, people GROUPS ("Jews", "Gentiles"), not "individuals".

11) Murray J. Harris, "Exegetical Guide to GNT":


"Some witnesses read πάντα (𝔓66 ℵ* D it vg al), which could mean “the whole creation,” although the neut. can refer to persons alone (e.g., 6:39–40; 17:24; BDF §138 [1]). The preferred rdg. πάντας (UBS5) refers to all, Gentiles (10:16; 11:52) as well as Jews, without distinction, and every type of person rather than everyone without exception."


In the interest of transparency, I have not engaged in any kind of "cherry-picking. I used all the commentaries I have found on my copy of "Accordance" Bible software, which is (to my knowledge) not biased towards Calvinism (how could it, when it includes Wesley's Notes?).

I cited every commentary that I could find that elaborated on the meaning of "all men", and I didn't find ANY that referred to "all men" as "every single individual".
 

PeanutGallery

Well-known member
Scripturally consistent.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Philip Comfort: "Jesus would attract all kinds of people (Jews and Gentiles) to himself"
A.T. Robertson had this to say: "Jesus does not mean every individual man,"
Albert Barnes: "All men. I will incline all kinds of men;"
John Wesley: "I will draw [Gentiles as well as Jews.]
Bible Knowledge Commentary: "He did not mean everybody"
John Calvin: "The word all, ... must be understood to refer to the children of God"
Barton W. Johnson: "Christ does not declare that he will draw every individual, but all races."
Adam Clarke:"I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles."
Murray J. Harris, "every type of person rather than everyone without exception."


I can't say that I'm surprised that I couldn't find any commentary that believed that "all" meant "every single individual", because most commentators are sufficiently aware of their theological bias, and try to divorce it from what the context actually teaches.

I think it's a good lesson to learn, for people to try to be more self-aware of whether they are assuming their theology into the text, or whether they are addressing what the text ACTUALLY means.

I find it interesting that a certain overbearing poster has quoted Robertson, Barnes, and Clarke, in support of his interpretations, and in this case, all three (and a bunch more) disagree with him on this particular interpretation. I think this simply shows that such people don't care about scholarship, but only in cherry-picking people who agree with their own personal beliefs.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Here is some interesting facts about John 12:32

1) The textual data... There are two significant variant readings of the text:

πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν (“I will draw all [people] to myself”)
πάντα ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν (“I will draw every [person or everything] to myself”)

2) It is important to note that the adjective ("pantas") is substantive, meaning that it doesn't have an explicit referent, but is implied. That is to say, the term "men" is not explicitly in the text. Too many people try to interpret the text as if it was, and as if it meant, "individuals", which simply cannot be justified by the text itself. It is an ASSUMPTION that is INTERPRETED from the the text.

3) Greek scholar Philip Comfort had this to say:

"Because of this ambiguity, scribes may have added a sigma to παντα. In either case, it seems that Jesus had people in mind when he spoke of drawing all to himself by being lifted up on the cross. Of course, this drawing could suggest a kind of universal reconciliation of all things, as in Col 1:20. But the major focus of the metaphor in context is that Jesus would attract all kinds of people (Jews and Gentiles) to himself by his death on the cross and subsequent glorification."

4) Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson had this to say:

"The magnetism of the Cross is now known of all men, however little they understand the mystery of the Cross. By “all men” (pantas) Jesus does not mean every individual man, for some, as Simeon said (Luke 2:34) are repelled by Christ, but this is the way that Greeks (verse 22) can and will come to Christ, by the way of the Cross, the only way to the Father (14:6)."

5) Albert Barnes had this to say:

"All men. I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross,"

6) John Wesley had this to say:

I will draw all menGentiles as well as Jews.

It appears that Wesley agrees with everyone else, that "all men" refers to "kinds" of men, people "groups" (ie. "Gentiles", "Jews"), rather than individuals.

7) Bible Knowledge Commentary:

"Jesus’ words, When I am lifted up from the earth, refer not to His Ascension but to His crucifixion (cf. 3:14; 8:28). He knew how He would die—by being “lifted up” on a cross. Jews, however, normally stoned those they considered worthy of death (cf. Stephen’s death, Acts 7:58-60)."
"Jesus said that at the cross He would draw all men to Himself.
He did not mean everybody will be saved for He made it clear that some will be lost (John 5:28-29). If the drawing by the Son is the same as that of the Father (6:44), it means He will draw indiscriminately. Those saved will include not only Jews, but also those from every tribe, language, people, and nation."

So again, "Kinds" of men, people "groups", not "individuals", is intended here.

8) John Calvin:

"I will draw all men to myself. The word all, which he employs, must be understood to refer to the children of God, who belong to his flock. Yet I agree with Chrysostom, who says that Christ used the universal term, all, because the Church was to be gathered equally from among Gentiles and Jews, according to that saying, 'There shall be one shepherd, and one sheepfold,' (John 10:16.)"

9) Barton W. Johnson:

"John 12:32. If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me. Lifted up, first, to the cross; second, from the grave; third, to heaven and the eternal throne. The crucified, risen and exalted Savior becomes a power to draw all men, Jews and Gentiles, all nations. Christ does not declare that he will draw every individual, but all races. The great thought is the power of his death and resurrection."

10) Adam Clarke:

"Verse 32. I-will draw all men unto me. After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles."

Again, people GROUPS ("Jews", "Gentiles"), not "individuals".

11) Murray J. Harris, "Exegetical Guide to GNT":


"Some witnesses read πάντα (𝔓66 ℵ* D it vg al), which could mean “the whole creation,” although the neut. can refer to persons alone (e.g., 6:39–40; 17:24; BDF §138 [1]). The preferred rdg. πάντας (UBS5) refers to all, Gentiles (10:16; 11:52) as well as Jews, without distinction, and every type of person rather than everyone without exception."


In the interest of transparency, I have not engaged in any kind of "cherry-picking. I used all the commentaries I have found on my copy of "Accordance" Bible software, which is (to my knowledge) not biased towards Calvinism (how could it, when it includes Wesley's Notes?).

I cited every commentary that I could find that elaborated on the meaning of "all men", and I didn't find ANY that referred to "all men" as "every single individual".
And did you find one that claims draw means to irresistibly unconditionally cause they to come to Christ and be saved

“Verse 32. I-will draw all men unto me. After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles. It was one of the peculiar characteristics of the Messiah, that unto him should the gathering of the people be, Genesis xlix. 10. And probably our Lord refers to the prophecy, Isaiah xi. 10, which peculiarly belonged to the Gentiles: “There shall be a root of Jesse which shall stand for an ENSIGN of the people, to it shall the GENTILES seek, and his rest shall be glorious.” There is an allusion here to the ensigns or colours of commanders of regiments, elevated on high places, on long poles, that the people might see where the pavilion of their general was, and so flock to his standard.”

(Adam Clarke, Adam Clarke’s Commentary on the Whole Bible, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2004), paragraph 41115.)

“32. Be lifted up. See John 3:14; 8:28.
Will draw. John 6:44. The same word is used in both places.
All men. I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross, so that all men may come. I will provide a way which shall present a strong motive or inducement—the strongest that can be presented—to all men to come to me.”

(Albert Barnes, Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2006), paragraph 8212.)

I am curious however why did you chose commentaries rather than Lexicons such as BAGD

b. w. a noun in the pl., without the art. πάντες ἄνθρωποι all men, everyone (Lysias 12, 60; Andoc. 3, 25; X., Cyr. 7, 5, 52, Mem. 4, 4, 19; Demosth. 8, 5; 18, 72) Ac 22:15; Ro 5:12a, 18a, b; 12:17, 18; 1 Cor 7:7; 15:19; 2 Cor 3:2; Phil 4:5; 1 Th 2:15; 1 Ti 2:4; 4:10; Tit 2:11. πάντες ἄγγελοι

which addresses the phrase all men at

1 Tim. 2:4 —KJV
“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

1 Tim. 4:10 —KJV
“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”

Titus 2:11 —KJV
“¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

Notice
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Scripturally consistent.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
1Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Did you read and pay attention to the OP ?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And did you find one that claims draw means to irresistibly unconditionally cause they to come to Christ and be saved

Apparently you don't understand what the word "draw" means.
Let me help you learn, okay?:

Here is how the term "draw" is used in English:

"draw a gun"
"with-drawl"
"draw a sword"
"draw blood"
"draw blinds"
"draw interest"
"draw curtains"
"draw a breath"
"draw a cheque"
"the honey drew flies";
“the light drew moths”;
"the enemy drew fire";
"horse-drawn carriage";
"draw the short straw"
"draw on a bank account";
"draw water from a well"
"amount of power drawn";
"draw a card from a deck”
"draw a bow" (archery);
"the college drew students";
"the performance drew cheers";
"draw-er" (you drag/pull it open);
"draw" (winning ticket) for a 50/50 draw;
"the prisoner was drawn and quartered";
“draw on a cigarette" ("take a draw");


Here is how the Greek word "helkuo" is used in Scripture:

Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω> it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?



Now, when a cowboy "draws" a pistol, what "condition" does the pistol have to do?
When a poker player "draws" a card, what "condition" does the card have to do?
When a woman "draws" water from a well, what "condition" does the water have to do?
When a man "draws" a net of fish, what "condition" does the fish have to do?
When a horse "draws" a carriage, what "condition" does the carriage have to do?

Are you beginning to understand, yet?


As to "Irresistibly", let's look at the term again.

A cowboy goes for his gun, but it gets stuck in the holster.
Can you genuinely claim he "drew" it? Of course not!

A fencer goes for his sword, but it gets stuck in his sheath.
Can you genuinely claim he "drew" it? Of course not!

Horses pull a carriage, but the brakes are on, and so it doesn't move.
Can you genuinely claim they "drew" it? Of course not!

A band plays at a venue, but nobody comes.
Can you genuinely claim they "drew" a crowd? Of course not!

"Drawing" IMPLIES "coming".


“Verse 32. I-will draw all men unto me. After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles.

You know that supports my view, and not yours, right?

But you refuse to explain yourself, so I guess this will go nowhere... ;)

“32. Be lifted up. See John 3:14; 8:28.
Will draw. John 6:44. The same word is used in both places.
All men. I will incline all kinds of men;

You know that supports my view, and not yours, right?

But you refuse to explain yourself, so I guess this will go nowhere... ;)



I am curious however why did you chose commentaries rather than Lexicons such as BAGD

Because unlike you, I know how to properly interpret Scripture and other texts.
The meaning of passages depends on the RELATION of words to one another, and their CONTEXT. And "lexicons" can't give you that.




1 Tim. 2:4 —KJV
“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

Same as John 12:32, "all KINDS of men", such as (refer back to v.1), "such as KINGS (a "type" of men), and "all in authority" (a "type" of men).

1 Tim. 4:10 —KJV
“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”

The saviour of believers among "all KINDS of men".

Titus 2:11 —KJV
“¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,”

Notice

This means that the GRACE has appeared to all (kinds of) men, not that the "salvation" appeared to them.

And it APPEARED to all men, not that it was "given" to all men.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Apparently you don't understand what the word "draw" means.
Let me help

"

Apparently you don't understand what the word "draw" means.
Let me help you learn, okay?:


And allow me to provide you with some scriptural examples

The same Greek word for “drawn” is used in the LXX in Neh 9:30… (esdras 19:30) and that group of Israelites, though drawn by God to the opportunity to obey Him, did not do it.

Nehemiah 9:30 (YLT)

30 `And Thou drawest over them many years, and testifiest against them by Thy Spirit, by the hand of Thy prophets, and they have not given ear, and Thou dost give them into the hand of peoples of the lands,

The Hebrew word for “drawn” used in Neh 9:30 is also used in Hos 11:4-5, which again is showing that Israel was “drawn” by God with love to Himself, but they refused Him.

Hos. 11:4 —KJV
“I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.”


Jeremiah 31:3–4
3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying,

Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:

Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
And allow me to provide you with some scriptural examples

So you didn't find the ones I gave to be "scriptural" enough?


Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω> it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?


So can we conclude that you have REMOVED those 11 books from the Bible? (I didn't count the Apocryphal ones for obvious reasons....)
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So you didn't find the ones I gave to be "scriptural" enough?


Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω> it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?


So can we conclude that you have REMOVED those 11 books from the Bible? (I didn't count the Apocryphal ones for obvious reasons....)
So you are going to ignore those examples and mix in inanimate objects and obvious drawing against ones will

and if you are going to appeal to the apocrypha

Helko is also used at 4Macc 14:13; 15:11(8) influence
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So you are going to ignore those examples and mix in inanimate objects and obvious drawing against ones will

1) Fish are "inanimate objects"?

2) "Drawing against ones [sic] will"? You seem to be ASSUMING some imaginary "default" of "drawing in ACCORDANCE with one's will". That's RIDICULOUS.

3) When do swords, guns, carriages, blinds, etc. have "wills"?

and if you are going to appeal to the apocrypha

Why not?
If you want to know how words are used, you check as MANY sources as possible.


You want to IGNORE the vast majority of usages, and highlight one or two.
That's called "cherry-picking", and it's fallacious.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Here is some interesting facts about John 12:32

1) The textual data... There are two significant variant readings of the text:

πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν (“I will draw all [people] to myself”)
πάντα ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν (“I will draw every [person or everything] to myself”)

2) It is important to note that the adjective ("pantas") is substantive, meaning that it doesn't have an explicit referent, but is implied. That is to say, the term "men" is not explicitly in the text. Too many people try to interpret the text as if it was, and as if it meant, "individuals", which simply cannot be justified by the text itself. It is an ASSUMPTION that is INTERPRETED from the the text.

3) Greek scholar Philip Comfort had this to say:

"Because of this ambiguity, scribes may have added a sigma to παντα. In either case, it seems that Jesus had people in mind when he spoke of drawing all to himself by being lifted up on the cross. Of course, this drawing could suggest a kind of universal reconciliation of all things, as in Col 1:20. But the major focus of the metaphor in context is that Jesus would attract all kinds of people (Jews and Gentiles) to himself by his death on the cross and subsequent glorification."

4) Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson had this to say:

"The magnetism of the Cross is now known of all men, however little they understand the mystery of the Cross. By “all men” (pantas) Jesus does not mean every individual man, for some, as Simeon said (Luke 2:34) are repelled by Christ, but this is the way that Greeks (verse 22) can and will come to Christ, by the way of the Cross, the only way to the Father (14:6)."

5) Albert Barnes had this to say:

"All men. I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross,"

6) John Wesley had this to say:

I will draw all menGentiles as well as Jews.

It appears that Wesley agrees with everyone else, that "all men" refers to "kinds" of men, people "groups" (ie. "Gentiles", "Jews"), rather than individuals.

7) Bible Knowledge Commentary:

"Jesus’ words, When I am lifted up from the earth, refer not to His Ascension but to His crucifixion (cf. 3:14; 8:28). He knew how He would die—by being “lifted up” on a cross. Jews, however, normally stoned those they considered worthy of death (cf. Stephen’s death, Acts 7:58-60)."
"Jesus said that at the cross He would draw all men to Himself.
He did not mean everybody will be saved for He made it clear that some will be lost (John 5:28-29). If the drawing by the Son is the same as that of the Father (6:44), it means He will draw indiscriminately. Those saved will include not only Jews, but also those from every tribe, language, people, and nation."

So again, "Kinds" of men, people "groups", not "individuals", is intended here.

8) John Calvin:

"I will draw all men to myself. The word all, which he employs, must be understood to refer to the children of God, who belong to his flock. Yet I agree with Chrysostom, who says that Christ used the universal term, all, because the Church was to be gathered equally from among Gentiles and Jews, according to that saying, 'There shall be one shepherd, and one sheepfold,' (John 10:16.)"

9) Barton W. Johnson:

"John 12:32. If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me. Lifted up, first, to the cross; second, from the grave; third, to heaven and the eternal throne. The crucified, risen and exalted Savior becomes a power to draw all men, Jews and Gentiles, all nations. Christ does not declare that he will draw every individual, but all races. The great thought is the power of his death and resurrection."

10) Adam Clarke:

"Verse 32. I-will draw all men unto me. After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles."

Again, people GROUPS ("Jews", "Gentiles"), not "individuals".

11) Murray J. Harris, "Exegetical Guide to GNT":


"Some witnesses read πάντα (𝔓66 ℵ* D it vg al), which could mean “the whole creation,” although the neut. can refer to persons alone (e.g., 6:39–40; 17:24; BDF §138 [1]). The preferred rdg. πάντας (UBS5) refers to all, Gentiles (10:16; 11:52) as well as Jews, without distinction, and every type of person rather than everyone without exception."


In the interest of transparency, I have not engaged in any kind of "cherry-picking. I used all the commentaries I have found on my copy of "Accordance" Bible software, which is (to my knowledge) not biased towards Calvinism (how could it, when it includes Wesley's Notes?).

I cited every commentary that I could find that elaborated on the meaning of "all men", and I didn't find ANY that referred to "all men" as "every single individual".

And I suppose this verse really means "all [kinds of] flesh"?

For you granted him authority over all kinds of flesh that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him ? ? ?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
1) Fish are "inanimate objects"?

2) "Drawing against ones [sic] will"? You seem to be ASSUMING some imaginary "default" of "drawing in ACCORDANCE with one's will". That's RIDICULOUS.

3) When do swords, guns, carriages, blinds, etc. have "wills"?



Why not?
If you want to know how words are used, you check as MANY sources as possible.


You want to IGNORE the vast majority of usages, and highlight one or two.
That's called "cherry-picking", and it's fallacious.


Get serious

Did anyone say fish are inanimate objects

Did anyone say swords, guns, carriages, blinds, etc. have "wills"

Why must you twist ?

and I gave you 5 examples of the use of helko


not one included coming

btw among those you quoted were words like attract, illuminate, incline

and john 6:44 still has been replaced by John 12:32
 
Last edited:

preacher4truth

Well-known member
Here is some interesting facts about John 12:32

1) The textual data... There are two significant variant readings of the text:

πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν (“I will draw all [people] to myself”)
πάντα ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν (“I will draw every [person or everything] to myself”)

2) It is important to note that the adjective ("pantas") is substantive, meaning that it doesn't have an explicit referent, but is implied. That is to say, the term "men" is not explicitly in the text. Too many people try to interpret the text as if it was, and as if it meant, "individuals", which simply cannot be justified by the text itself. It is an ASSUMPTION that is INTERPRETED from the the text.

3) Greek scholar Philip Comfort had this to say:

"Because of this ambiguity, scribes may have added a sigma to παντα. In either case, it seems that Jesus had people in mind when he spoke of drawing all to himself by being lifted up on the cross. Of course, this drawing could suggest a kind of universal reconciliation of all things, as in Col 1:20. But the major focus of the metaphor in context is that Jesus would attract all kinds of people (Jews and Gentiles) to himself by his death on the cross and subsequent glorification."

4) Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson had this to say:

"The magnetism of the Cross is now known of all men, however little they understand the mystery of the Cross. By “all men” (pantas) Jesus does not mean every individual man, for some, as Simeon said (Luke 2:34) are repelled by Christ, but this is the way that Greeks (verse 22) can and will come to Christ, by the way of the Cross, the only way to the Father (14:6)."

5) Albert Barnes had this to say:

"All men. I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross,"

6) John Wesley had this to say:

I will draw all menGentiles as well as Jews.

It appears that Wesley agrees with everyone else, that "all men" refers to "kinds" of men, people "groups" (ie. "Gentiles", "Jews"), rather than individuals.

7) Bible Knowledge Commentary:

"Jesus’ words, When I am lifted up from the earth, refer not to His Ascension but to His crucifixion (cf. 3:14; 8:28). He knew how He would die—by being “lifted up” on a cross. Jews, however, normally stoned those they considered worthy of death (cf. Stephen’s death, Acts 7:58-60)."
"Jesus said that at the cross He would draw all men to Himself.
He did not mean everybody will be saved for He made it clear that some will be lost (John 5:28-29). If the drawing by the Son is the same as that of the Father (6:44), it means He will draw indiscriminately. Those saved will include not only Jews, but also those from every tribe, language, people, and nation."

So again, "Kinds" of men, people "groups", not "individuals", is intended here.

8) John Calvin:

"I will draw all men to myself. The word all, which he employs, must be understood to refer to the children of God, who belong to his flock. Yet I agree with Chrysostom, who says that Christ used the universal term, all, because the Church was to be gathered equally from among Gentiles and Jews, according to that saying, 'There shall be one shepherd, and one sheepfold,' (John 10:16.)"

9) Barton W. Johnson:

"John 12:32. If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me. Lifted up, first, to the cross; second, from the grave; third, to heaven and the eternal throne. The crucified, risen and exalted Savior becomes a power to draw all men, Jews and Gentiles, all nations. Christ does not declare that he will draw every individual, but all races. The great thought is the power of his death and resurrection."

10) Adam Clarke:

"Verse 32. I-will draw all men unto me. After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles."

Again, people GROUPS ("Jews", "Gentiles"), not "individuals".

11) Murray J. Harris, "Exegetical Guide to GNT":


"Some witnesses read πάντα (𝔓66 ℵ* D it vg al), which could mean “the whole creation,” although the neut. can refer to persons alone (e.g., 6:39–40; 17:24; BDF §138 [1]). The preferred rdg. πάντας (UBS5) refers to all, Gentiles (10:16; 11:52) as well as Jews, without distinction, and every type of person rather than everyone without exception."


In the interest of transparency, I have not engaged in any kind of "cherry-picking. I used all the commentaries I have found on my copy of "Accordance" Bible software, which is (to my knowledge) not biased towards Calvinism (how could it, when it includes Wesley's Notes?).

I cited every commentary that I could find that elaborated on the meaning of "all men", and I didn't find ANY that referred to "all men" as "every single individual"
Bingo on all this.

I can appreciate the willingness to present differing views. Unfortunately, as you noted some are going to cherry-pick, afraid of the facts and scared to let their tradition go.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Bingo on all this.

I can appreciate the willingness to present differing views. Unfortunately, as you noted some are going to cherry-pick, afraid of the facts and scared to let their tradition go.
And some will ignore any fact which varies from their view
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
And some will ignore any fact which varies from their view
You've described yourself perfectly, so you're the "some."

Any honest person on here is able to note that your track record is to bang out a response without even reading what was written which is ignoring facts in addition to you being disrespectful. Then to top that off you ignore plain Scripture from a God you claim to know which refutes your errant theology.

You've earned that reputation.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
You've described yourself perfectly, so you're the "some."

Any honest person on here is able to note that your track record is to bang out a response without even reading what was written which is ignoring facts in addition to you being disrespectful. Then to top that off you ignore plain Scripture from a God you claim to know which refutes your errant theology.

You've earned that reputation.

Funny i have posted a lot of verses you nor anyone have been able to refute

and a number of ops where the main point has not even been addressed
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The above has never happened. Taking scripture out of context isn't you refuting anyone.

God says we aren't saved by our will, but @TomFL says God isn't telling the truth, and that we are saved by our will: John 1:13.
You failed to prove anything was out of context

and you are distorting what is believed

Everyone believes God must save

and faith has no saving power in itself

You confound two decisions as one'

The decision of God to save

The decision of man to believe
 
Top