John 12:32

TomFL

Well-known member
Show us where the BIBLE (not you) teaches that "believing" is a "decision".
Chapter and verse, please....
Do you not know faith is a response of the mind, the emotions and the will

How can the will act without a decision

every verse calling on man to believe that is have faith is calling for a decesion

God does not believe for the man

The man must do it



God calls on man to chose

Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”

Josh. 24:15 —ESV
“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.””
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Do you not know faith is a response of the mind, the emotions and the will

So you CANNOT show where "belief is a decision" from the BIBLE.
Thank you for the ADMISSION.

How can the will act without a decision

So you are ASSUMING your view.
Thank you for the ADMISSION.

every verse calling on man to believe that is have faith is calling for a decesion

So you are ASSUMING your view.
Thank you for the ADMISSION.


God does not believe for the man

Irrelevant straw-man.
NOBODY said that "God believes for man".

But you have STILL not shown where the BIBLE teaches, "believing is a decision".


The man must do it

"Do" it, not "decide" to do it.
You are ASSUMING your view.

God calls on man to chose

Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”

It says "choose life".

It does NOT say "choose to believe".
So thank you for admitting that you CANNOT demonstrate your claim from the Bible.


Josh. 24:15 —ESV
“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.””

1) This is about "choosing" who you will SERVE, not "choosing" to BELIEVE.
That is NOT the same thing.
But maybe you don't understand that?

2) Try reading your own proof-text.
This is about people who have REJECTED the LORD ("if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD"), and is a choice about SERVING (not "believing") between one of two groups of FALSE gods.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
If you haven't read it I highly recommend Princeton v The New Divinity.

This shows where @TomFL and others got their decisional regeneration heresy.
Its called scripture

You can't be regenerated without faith in the gospel

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

The gospel without faith does not profit

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
You've described yourself perfectly, so you're the "some."

Any honest person on here is able to note that your track record is to bang out a response without even reading what was written which is ignoring facts in addition to you being disrespectful. Then to top that off you ignore plain Scripture from a God you claim to know which refutes your errant theology.

You've earned that reputation.
You and Theo have the patience of a saint. If I had to spend one day with Tom, there would probably be an arrest warrant out for me. As I'm sure I would've drawn something Lethal.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Do you not know faith is a response of the mind, the emotions and the will

How can the will act without a decision


every verse calling on man to believe that is have faith is calling for a decesion

God does not believe for the man

The man must do it



God calls on man to chose

Deut. 30:10–19 —ESV
“when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,”

Josh. 24:15 —ESV
“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.””
This is classic salvation by the work of man, something a man does !
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Do you not know faith is a response of the mind, the emotions and the will

How can the will act without a decision

You say the will is determined by "decisions".
Mine isn't.
It never has.

I say decisions are based on the "will".


Which position is Biblical?

What Bible verse says, "we decide what to believe", without you ASSUMING it?

Can you "decide" to believe that God doesn't exist?
I can't.

Can an unbeliever "decide" to believe in God?
I've known many that WANTED to believe in God, but they weren't able to "decide" what to believe.

So I find your bizarre claim to be experientially false, as well as unBiblical.
 

Beloved Daughter

Super Member
Here is some interesting facts about John 12:32

1) The textual data... There are two significant variant readings of the text:

πάντας ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν (“I will draw all [people] to myself”)
πάντα ἑλκύσω πρὸς ἐμαυτόν (“I will draw every [person or everything] to myself”)

2) It is important to note that the adjective ("pantas") is substantive, meaning that it doesn't have an explicit referent, but is implied. That is to say, the term "men" is not explicitly in the text. Too many people try to interpret the text as if it was, and as if it meant, "individuals", which simply cannot be justified by the text itself. It is an ASSUMPTION that is INTERPRETED from the the text.

3) Greek scholar Philip Comfort had this to say:

"Because of this ambiguity, scribes may have added a sigma to παντα. In either case, it seems that Jesus had people in mind when he spoke of drawing all to himself by being lifted up on the cross. Of course, this drawing could suggest a kind of universal reconciliation of all things, as in Col 1:20. But the major focus of the metaphor in context is that Jesus would attract all kinds of people (Jews and Gentiles) to himself by his death on the cross and subsequent glorification."

4) Greek Scholar A.T. Robertson had this to say:

"The magnetism of the Cross is now known of all men, however little they understand the mystery of the Cross. By “all men” (pantas) Jesus does not mean every individual man, for some, as Simeon said (Luke 2:34) are repelled by Christ, but this is the way that Greeks (verse 22) can and will come to Christ, by the way of the Cross, the only way to the Father (14:6)."

5) Albert Barnes had this to say:

"All men. I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross,"

6) John Wesley had this to say:

I will draw all menGentiles as well as Jews.

It appears that Wesley agrees with everyone else, that "all men" refers to "kinds" of men, people "groups" (ie. "Gentiles", "Jews"), rather than individuals.

7) Bible Knowledge Commentary:

"Jesus’ words, When I am lifted up from the earth, refer not to His Ascension but to His crucifixion (cf. 3:14; 8:28). He knew how He would die—by being “lifted up” on a cross. Jews, however, normally stoned those they considered worthy of death (cf. Stephen’s death, Acts 7:58-60)."
"Jesus said that at the cross He would draw all men to Himself.
He did not mean everybody will be saved for He made it clear that some will be lost (John 5:28-29). If the drawing by the Son is the same as that of the Father (6:44), it means He will draw indiscriminately. Those saved will include not only Jews, but also those from every tribe, language, people, and nation."

So again, "Kinds" of men, people "groups", not "individuals", is intended here.

8) John Calvin:

"I will draw all men to myself. The word all, which he employs, must be understood to refer to the children of God, who belong to his flock. Yet I agree with Chrysostom, who says that Christ used the universal term, all, because the Church was to be gathered equally from among Gentiles and Jews, according to that saying, 'There shall be one shepherd, and one sheepfold,' (John 10:16.)"

9) Barton W. Johnson:

"John 12:32. If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me. Lifted up, first, to the cross; second, from the grave; third, to heaven and the eternal throne. The crucified, risen and exalted Savior becomes a power to draw all men, Jews and Gentiles, all nations. Christ does not declare that he will draw every individual, but all races. The great thought is the power of his death and resurrection."

10) Adam Clarke:

"Verse 32. I-will draw all men unto me. After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles."

Again, people GROUPS ("Jews", "Gentiles"), not "individuals".

11) Murray J. Harris, "Exegetical Guide to GNT":


"Some witnesses read πάντα (𝔓66 ℵ* D it vg al), which could mean “the whole creation,” although the neut. can refer to persons alone (e.g., 6:39–40; 17:24; BDF §138 [1]). The preferred rdg. πάντας (UBS5) refers to all, Gentiles (10:16; 11:52) as well as Jews, without distinction, and every type of person rather than everyone without exception."


In the interest of transparency, I have not engaged in any kind of "cherry-picking. I used all the commentaries I have found on my copy of "Accordance" Bible software, which is (to my knowledge) not biased towards Calvinism (how could it, when it includes Wesley's Notes?).

I cited every commentary that I could find that elaborated on the meaning of "all men", and I didn't find ANY that referred to "all men" as "every single individual".

Thank you Theo. When you do these kinds of threads, I always learn something.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Apparently you don't understand what the word "draw" means.
Let me help you learn, okay?:

Here is how the term "draw" is used in English:

"draw a gun"
"with-drawl"
"draw a sword"
"draw blood"
"draw blinds"
"draw interest"
"draw curtains"
"draw a breath"
"draw a cheque"
"the honey drew flies";
“the light drew moths”;
"the enemy drew fire";
"horse-drawn carriage";
"draw the short straw"
"draw on a bank account";
"draw water from a well"
"amount of power drawn";
"draw a card from a deck”
"draw a bow" (archery);
"the college drew students";
"the performance drew cheers";
"draw-er" (you drag/pull it open);
"draw" (winning ticket) for a 50/50 draw;
"the prisoner was drawn and quartered";
“draw on a cigarette" ("take a draw");


Here is how the Greek word "helkuo" is used in Scripture:

Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω> it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?


The defect in your argument is obvious They all have to do with the dragging or drawing of physical objects
But neither Jesus or the Father are dragging anyone. That is not even good calvinism. Which notes men coming willingly in response. Nor is a physical object being drawn.

So all your examples are useless they do not help at all

BDAG gives

b. fig. of the pull on man’s inner life (Pla., Phaedr. 238A; Aelian, Nat. An. 4, 13; Porphyr., Marc. 16 μόνη ἡ ἀρετὴ τ. ψυχὴν ἄνω ἕλκει καὶ πρὸς τὸ συγγενές; Jer 38:3; SSol 1:4; 4 Macc 14:13; 15:11;

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 251.

The use of Helko here is metaphorical and the only two places it is used this way in the new testament is John 6:44 and 12:32

No where else. so you need to go elsewhere for insight

Helko i


The same Greek word for “drawn” is used in the LXX in Neh 9:30… (esdras 19:30) and that group of Israelites, though drawn by God to the opportunity to obey Him, did not do it.



Nehemiah 9:30 (YLT)

30 `And Thou drawest over them many years, and testifiest against them by Thy Spirit, by the hand of Thy prophets, and they have not given ear, and Thou dost give them into the hand of peoples of the lands,


Jeremiah 31:3–4 (KJV 1900)

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying,

Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:

Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:

Thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,

And shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Again Helko is the Greek text

Here are two examples of God's drawing of Israel

Yet we saw Israel did not obey

and we have a historical record of Israel's unfaithfulness
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
You say the will is determined by "decisions".
Mine isn't.
It never has.

I say decisions are based on the "will".


Which position is Biblical?

What Bible verse says, "we decide what to believe", without you ASSUMING it?

Can you "decide" to believe that God doesn't exist?
I can't.

Can an unbeliever "decide" to believe in God?
I've known many that WANTED to believe in God, but they weren't able to "decide" what to believe.

So I find your bizarre claim to be experientially false, as well as unBiblical.
People do all the time

Just as they decide the bible is true

Just as in the bible some decided Christ is who he said he was based on his miracles

Just as John informs

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

based on evidence men can decide to believe
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
People do all the time

Why should I believe your false claim?

Just as they decide the bible is true

Where is your evidence for that?

Just as in the bible some decided Christ is who he said he was based on his miracles

Where is your evidence for that?

Just as John informs

John 20:31 —KJV
“But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

It does not say, "these are written, that ye might DECIDE TO believe..."

based on evidence men can decide to believe

That continues to be completely UNBIBLICAL.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Why should I believe your false claim?

Quite simply it is true

Belief and unbelief are a decision

You decided to not believe my post
Where is your evidence for that?

John 2:23 —KJV
“¶ Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.”

Where is your evidence for that?



It does not say, "these are written, that ye might DECIDE TO believe..."


might believe that is a decision

they could believe
or
they could not believe


That continues to be completely UNBIBLICAL.
No that continues to be true
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Apparently you don't understand what the word "draw" means.
Let me help you learn, okay?:

Here is how the term "draw" is used in English:

"draw a gun"
"with-drawl"
"draw a sword"
"draw blood"
"draw blinds"
"draw interest"
"draw curtains"
"draw a breath"
"draw a cheque"
"the honey drew flies";
“the light drew moths”;
"the enemy drew fire";
"horse-drawn carriage";
"draw the short straw"
"draw on a bank account";
"draw water from a well"
"amount of power drawn";
"draw a card from a deck”
"draw a bow" (archery);
"the college drew students";
"the performance drew cheers";
"draw-er" (you drag/pull it open);
"draw" (winning ticket) for a 50/50 draw;
"the prisoner was drawn and quartered";
“draw on a cigarette" ("take a draw");


Here is how the Greek word "helkuo" is used in Scripture:

Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω> it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?

Where's the verse that tells us HOW God draws? How did you manage to miss that one? That one wouldn't be too convenient for you would it?

From long ago, the Lord appeared to me, "I have loved you with an eternal love, therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn you" (Jeremiah 31:3 LXX).

 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Quite simply it is true

<Chuckle>

So I'm supposed to turn off my brain and blindly believe whatever some anonymous Internet yahoo says, even though it contradicts both experience and the Bible?

I. Don't. Think. So.

Belief and unbelief are a decision

That's simply not true.
I didn't "decide" not to believe as a kid.
And I didn't "decide" to believe when I came to Christ.

John 2:23 —KJV
“¶ Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.”

Again, nothing about "deciding" there.

might believe that is a decision

Um, no, it is not.
You are simply ASSUMING that it is a "decision".

they could believe
or
they could not believe

Wrong.
No one can believe if God has not given them faith.
And no one can "not believe" if God HAS given them faith.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
<Chuckle>

So I'm supposed to turn off my brain and blindly believe whatever some anonymous Internet yahoo says, even though it contradicts both experience and the Bible?
No you are supposed to use it. How you perform an action without an act of your will

and you have not shown anything contrary to the bible

Mark 9:23–24 —KJV
“Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”

Jesus said to the man if You can believe not if I make you believe


y
I. Don't. Think. So.



That's simply not true.
I didn't "decide" not to believe as a kid.
And I didn't "decide" to believe when I came to Christ.
Did someone else chose to not believe or believe for you





Again, nothing about "deciding" there.

Did you forget

you asked where men believed because of the miracles


Um, no, it is not.
You are simply ASSUMING that it is a "decision".



Wrong.
No one can believe if God has not given them faith.
And no one can "not believe" if God HAS given them faith.

Ah the root of your disagreement you assume God effectually causes yo to believe

but even then it is still you who must believe and even Calvinist believe once regenerated man

willingly believes

God does not believe for anyone . The man himself must believe
 
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