John 12:32

Redeemed

Well-known member
Great! Another must have book for my library. Like I need another book! But, I need this another book!
Man I hear that. Have you seen the little Photo with that father and son team that builds choppers? Was on the faith life free low logos books Facebook page. They took a scene from the TV show and change the words were there arguing about that dad buying another book. 120770950_3346979692015814_5342156842847877063_o.jpg
 
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preacher4truth

Well-known member
Hey you have to keep a sense of humor doing this stuff
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Theo1689

Well-known member
No you are supposed to use it. How you perform an action without an act of your will

Great.
Then I use my brain, and I believe Scripture, and I reject your false teachings.

and you have not shown anything contrary to the bible

Not my job.
YOU are the one with the bogus claim.
Therefore YOU are the one with the burden of proof.
Not me.
You are trying to fallaciously shift the burden of proof.

You do this ALL the time!
1) You make a bogus claim.
2) You are challenged to prove it from the Bible.
3) You try to rationalize a bit, with lots of self-serving ASSUMPTIONS.
4) Then you claim, "YOU have not shown anything contrary".

YOU haven't shown where the BIBLE teaches "choose" to believe, or "decide" to believe.
Therefore I REJECT your false teaching, because it is not Biblical.


Mark 9:23–24 —KJV
“Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”

Jesus said to the man if You can believe not if I make you believe

Jesus did NOT say "you can CHOOSE to believe".
Jesus did NOT say, "you can DECIDE to believe".

Sorry, you are simply wrong.

Did someone else chose to not believe or believe for you

Straw-man.
And shifting the burden of proof.

You are ASSUMING that believing is a "choice", and then asking WHO "chose".
Believing IS NOT a "choice".
You haven't proven that it is.

Did you forget

you asked where men believed because of the miracles

I did NOT "ask" any such thing.
Please stop MISREPRESENTING me.

If you want to claim I "asked" something, then provide a LINKED QUOTE.

Ah the root of your disagreement you assume God effectually causes yo to believe

but even then it is still you who must believe and even Calvinist believe once regenerated man

willingly believes

God does not believe for anyone . The man himself must believe

Another straw-man.
NOBODY has said, "God believes for us".

YOU have not demonstrated that the BIBLE teaches that belief is a "choice" or a "decision".

God gave me ears.
So I hear.
I don't "choose" to hear.
I hear, because my ears work.
I have no control over them.
But *I* hear, God doesn't "hear" for me.

God gave me faith.
So I believe.
I don't "choose" to believe.
I believe, because my faith works.
I have no control over it.
But *I* believe, God doesn't" believe" for me.

Seriously, it's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Now, it is YOUR job to show from the BIBLE that belief is something you "decide" to do, or "choose" to do. The Bible does NOT teach any such nonsense.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
I was only following the newly created context and held the historical, grammatical and contemporary audience in mind as principles of interpretation.

I was completely Biblical about it! :D

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Now that one actually made me laugh out loud. Good thing I wasn't drinking coffee my monitor would be wearing it.

This is a compliment right?
held the historical, grammatical and contemporary audience in mind as principles of interpretation
 

JDS

Well-known member
Apparently you don't understand what the word "draw" means.
Let me help you learn, okay?:

Here is how the term "draw" is used in English:

"draw a gun"
"with-drawl"
"draw a sword"
"draw blood"
"draw blinds"
"draw interest"
"draw curtains"
"draw a breath"
"draw a cheque"
"the honey drew flies";
“the light drew moths”;
"the enemy drew fire";
"horse-drawn carriage";
"draw the short straw"
"draw on a bank account";
"draw water from a well"
"amount of power drawn";
"draw a card from a deck”
"draw a bow" (archery);
"the college drew students";
"the performance drew cheers";
"draw-er" (you drag/pull it open);
"draw" (winning ticket) for a 50/50 draw;
"the prisoner was drawn and quartered";
“draw on a cigarette" ("take a draw");


Here is how the Greek word "helkuo" is used in Scripture:

Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω> it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?
Notice that not a single quote from any of the 13 letters from the pen of the apostle Paul. Why not? Because Paul did not use that word in the context of gentiles to whom he ministered. Why is that important? It is because that Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and there is no drawing taking place or he would have used the word. I have been preaching that men should get their theology from the "words" of scriptures and not these Greek scholars that might be as dumb as a rock when it comes to the spiritual content of the scriptures and the mind of God. Often times they are. Putting ones trust in them is extremely dangerous and unwise.

Notice what the great apostle Paul said to gentiles.

Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Okay, Bro Paul, teach us about "draw."

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Okay, so I think you are saying we do not need to know about "the doctrine of draw" in the context of the gospel of God. I will not pursue the matter farther with you. Thank you.

Here is how simple it is for gentiles:

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

The drawing power of God was from the OT scriptures and miracles and signs, something gentiles did not have. This is why he said to a Jew in John 3 to consult with Numbers 21 and he will understand how a man is born again without going through his mother's womb the second time. God never told a gentile to do that.

Gentiles are invited to be partakers of the spiritual blessings of the Jews through Christ, not because they believe themselves to be chosen of God and because of that, God was not interested in the masses. Does this theology sound familiar?

Our wonderful Bible just makes so much sense when it is accepted in it's context and by it's words. I apologize for knowing by the grace of God more about this subject than many of the Greek scholars. You can too, if you believe the words and honor context and have the Spirit of God in you to teach you.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Being a Greek scholar does not insure that God has revealed anything to you.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Okay, Bro Paul, teach us about "draw."

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Okay, so I think you are saying we do not need to know about "the doctrine of draw" in the context of the gospel of God. I will not pursue the matter farther with you. Thank you.

<sigh>

Only a heretic would try to use Paul as an excuse to reject the teachings of Jesus.
 

Redeemed

Well-known member
Notice that not a single quote from any of the 13 letters from the pen of the apostle Paul. Why not? Because Paul did not use that word in the context of gentiles to whom he ministered. Why is that important? It is because that Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and there is no drawing taking place or he would have used the word. I have been preaching that men should get their theology from the "words" of scriptures and not these Greek scholars that might be as dumb as a rock when it comes to the spiritual content of the scriptures and the mind of God. Often times they are. Putting ones trust in them is extremely dangerous and unwise.

Notice what the great apostle Paul said to gentiles.

Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Okay, Bro Paul, teach us about "draw."

18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

Okay, so I think you are saying we do not need to know about "the doctrine of draw" in the context of the gospel of God. I will not pursue the matter farther with you. Thank you.

Here is how simple it is for gentiles:

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

The drawing power of God was from the OT scriptures and miracles and signs, something gentiles did not have. This is why he said to a Jew in John 3 to consult with Numbers 21 and he will understand how a man is born again without going through his mother's womb the second time. God never told a gentile to do that.

Gentiles are invited to be partakers of the spiritual blessings of the Jews through Christ, not because they believe themselves to be chosen of God and because of that, God was not interested in the masses. Does this theology sound familiar?

Our wonderful Bible just makes so much sense when it is accepted in it's context and by it's words. I apologize for knowing by the grace of God more about this subject than many of the Greek scholars. You can too, if you believe the words and honor context and have the Spirit of God in you to teach you.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Being a Greek scholar does not insure that God has revealed anything to you.
Okay enough foolishness time to get serious here. I can't wait to read Theo's reply to this post. It's a little too early for popcorn or I would go get some.
Well that didn't take long. I never even got a chance to click post.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
TomFL said:
No you are supposed to use it. How you perform an action without an act of your will
Great.
Then I use my brain, and I believe Scripture, and I reject your false teachings.

TomFL said:
and you have not shown anything contrary to the bible
Not my job.
YOU are the one with the bogus claim.
Therefore YOU are the one with the burden of proof.
Not me.
You are trying to fallaciously shift the burden of proof.

If you are going to call something bogus you an obligation to prove it bogus or your claim carries no weight

You do this ALL the time!
1) You make a bogus claim.
2) You are challenged to prove it from the Bible.
3) You try to rationalize a bit, with lots of self-serving ASSUMPTIONS.
4) Then you claim, "YOU have not shown anything contrary".

And you do this all the time

I make a statement you cal it bogus

I say prove it

You clam up

YOU haven't shown where the BIBLE teaches "choose" to believe, or "decide" to believe.
Therefore I REJECT your false teaching, because it is not Biblical.

Again you have not proven it is unbiblical

and we know you are not even going to try

but tell me how do you perform an act of your will without a decision

You do know faith is more than head knowledge and requires an act of the will




TomFL said:
Mark 9:23–24 —KJV
“Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”

Jesus said to the man if You can believe not if I make you believe
Jesus did NOT say "you can CHOOSE to believe".
Jesus did NOT say, "you can DECIDE to believe".

who was doing the believing



TomFL said:
Did someone else chose to not believe or believe for you
Straw-man.
And shifting the burden of proof.



You are ASSUMING that believing is a "choice", and then asking WHO "chose".
Believing IS NOT a "choice".
You haven't proven that it is.

so you say butb you have not proven it
TomFL said:
Did you forget

you asked where men believed because of the miracles
I did NOT "ask" any such thing.
Please stop MISREPRESENTING me.

Really ? your words

Theo1689 said:
Where is your evidence for that?

and my answer

John 2:23 —KJV
“¶ Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.”


you did ask


If you want to claim I "asked" something, then provide a LINKED QUOTE.

See above
 
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