John 12:32

JDS

Well-known member
<sigh>

Only a heretic would try to use Paul as an excuse to reject the teachings of Jesus.
The phrase "word of the Lord" is a phrase that is often used to to designate NT truth that was the teaching of Jesus Christ and was a matter of NT doctrines not necessarily established in the OT. Look here.

Acts 8:25
And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

Acts 11:16
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

It is in our text we have been discussing on another thread.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Certainly you would not read of gentiles on equal standing with Jews in the OT.

The word of the Lord is the OT designation for Jesus Christ. It is first used in the beginning of the third millennium of human history in Ge 15 and he appeared in a vision to Abraham. For the first time he is given the name in scripture as "Lord GOD." This is Adonay Jehovah . This is a critical pivot point in the progressive revelation of God and his unfolding drama of redemption. It is needful for us to know this in our understanding of the trinitarian work of God in salvation. Often times the word of the Lord comes to the prophets of Israel as a Christophany, but not always. Here is a passage where this designation is very important.

The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonay), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

The word of the LORD of the OT is the same word of the Lord in the NT and he is the Lord GOD.

Here is just a bit of extra information for you to ponder in this context.

5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

This is another subject but it will help to study this out.

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

the word of the Lord = Lord GOD = manifest so as to be seen " in a vision,"

I am not a heretic as you claim. I am a person who believes the words.

Here is my advice to you. Believe the words and search out context.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
So you didn't find the ones I gave to be "scriptural" enough?


Deut. 21:3 a heifer that...has not pulled <ἑλκύω> in a yoke.
2Sam. 22:17 he drew <ἑλκύω> me out of many waters.
1 Mac 10:82 Then brought <ἑλκύω> Simon forth his host,
3 Mac 5:49 infants drew <ἑλκύω> what seemed their last milk [from the breast].
4 Mac 11:9 the spearbearers bound him, and drew <ἑλκύω> him to the catapelt:
Ps. 10:9 he seizes the poor when he draws <ἑλκύω> him into his net.
Ps. 119:131 I open my mouth and pant <ἑλκύω pneuma>, lit. "draw air"
Eccl. 2:3 how to cheer my body with wine (lit., "draw <ἑλκύω> wine into my body"
Job 20:28 The possessions of his house will be carried away, <ἑλκύω>
Job 39:10 or will he harrow <ἑλκύω> the valleys after you? (lit. "drag your furrows")
Sir. 28:19 who hath not drawn <ἑλκύω> the yoke thereof,
Hab. 1:15 he drags <ἑλκύω> them out with his net;
Isa. 10:15 [shall] the saw magnify itself against him who wields <ἑλκύω> it?
Jer. 14:6 they pant <ἑλκύω> for air (lit. "draw air") like jackals;
Jer. 38:13 Then they drew <ἑλκύω> Jeremiah up with ropes
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew <ἑλκύω> it
John 21:6 So they cast [the net], and now they were not able to haul <ἑλκύω> it in
John 21:11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled <ἑλκύω> the net ashore
Acts 16:19 they seized Paul and Silas and dragged <ἑλκύω> them into the marketplace
Acts 21:30 They seized Paul and dragged <ἑλκύω> him out of the temple
James 2:6 the ones who drag <ἑλκύω> you into court?


So can we conclude that you have REMOVED those 11 books from the Bible? (I didn't count the Apocryphal ones for obvious reasons....)

Let us examine the lexicon for the meaning of Helko when it used not to note the dragging
or hauling of a physical object such as in John 6:44 and John 12:32 The only two such uses in the New testament

b. fig. of the pull on man’s inner life (Pla., Phaedr. 238A; Aelian, Nat. An. 4, 13; Porphyr., Marc. 16 μόνη ἡ ἀρετὴ τ. ψυχὴν ἄνω ἕλκει καὶ πρὸς τὸ συγγενές; Jer 38:3; SSol 1:4; 4 Macc 14:13; 15:11; Jos., Ant. 15, 27)draw, attract J 6:44. ἕλκ. πρός with acc. (Hierocles 25 p. 477 it is said of God ἐλκύσαι πρὸς τὴν ἀλήθειαν τοὺς ἀνθρώπους): πρὸς ἐμαυτόν 12:32.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 251.

no drag , no force

xxi).
This less violent significance, usually present in helkō, but always absent from surō, is seen in the metaphorical use of helkō, to signify drawing by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., S. of S., 1:4, and Jer. 31:3, “with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.”


W.E. Vine and F.F. Bruce, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Old Tappan NJ: Revell, 1981), 336.

to draw by inward power, lead, impel.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

8. draw to oneself, attract, of the magnet, E.Fr.567; by spells, τινὰ ποτὶ δῶμα Theoc.2.17, cf. X.Mem.3.11.18, Plot.4.4.40, etc.; πείθειν καὶ ἑ. Pl.R.458d; ἐχθροὺς ἐφʼ ἑαυτόν D.22.59; draw on, ἐπὶ ἡδονάς Pl.Phdr.238a; εἰς τυραννίδας ἕ. τὰς πολιτείας Id.R.568c:—Pass., to be drawn on as by a spell, ἴυγγι δʼ ἕλκομαι ἦτορ Pi.N.4.35; πρὸς φιλοσοφίαν Pl.R.494e.

Henry George Liddell et al., A Greek-English Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1996), 535.

The basic meaning is “to draw,” “tug,” or, in the case of persons, “compel.” It may be used for “to draw” to a place by magic, for demons being “drawn” to animal life, or for the inner influencing of the will (Plato). The Semitic world has the concept of an irresistible drawing to God (cf. 1 Sam. 10:5; 19:19ff.; Jer. 29:26; Hos. 9:7). In the OT hélkein denotes a powerful impulse, as in Cant. 1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Jn. 6:44; 12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic. [A. OEPKE,II, 503–04]













Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, and Geoffrey William Bromiley, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans, 1985), 227.

Finally as we have seen it does not always have apositive result

The same Greek word for “drawn” is used in the LXX in Neh 9:30… (esdras 19:30) and that group of Israelites, though drawn by God to the opportunity to obey Him, did not do it.

Nehemiah 9:30 (YLT)

30 `And Thou drawest over them many years, and testifiest against them by Thy Spirit, by the hand of Thy prophets, and they have not given ear, and Thou dost give them into the hand of peoples of the lands,

The Hebrew word for “drawn” used in Neh 9:30 is also used in Hos 11:4-5, which again is showing that Israel was “drawn” by God with love to Himself, but they refused Him.

Hos. 11:4 —KJV
“I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.”


Jeremiah 31:3–4
3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying,

Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:

Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Here is some interesting facts about John 12:32
Here are various uses of the phrase all men as appears in various commentaries

I have yet to find one that does not affirm universality for the phrase all men in one place or another

2:11 Paul asserted, “For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.” The New Testament concept of “the grace of God” is his beneficial activity on behalf of humans (both corporately and individually). God’s grace toward us is based solely on his love and our total inability to meet God’s standards. God’s grace is a gift we do not deserve and cannot earn. Without God’s grace, there can be no salvation since grace is foundational to salvation (Eph 2:4–9). The NIV renders the adjective sōtērios, “that brings salvation,” as modifying “the grace of God,” with which it agrees in case, number, and gender (cf. also KJV). However, sōtērios may be understood as modifying “all men” (pasin anthropois), thus rendering “that brings salvation to all men” (cf. RSV, NASB). Either translation is acceptable, though perhaps the arguments for the latter rendering are slightly more convincing. Neither rendering implies universalism (i.e., that all people are saved). Rather, the point is that salvation is universally offered to all without exception[1] New American Commentary 1 & 2 Timothy

5:18–19. In these verses Paul concludes his basic parallelism between Adam and Jesus Christ begun in verse 12 and the contrasts between them in verses 15–17. Paul reduced the contrast to the briefest possible statement. Consequently (lit., “so then”), just as the result of one trespass (paraptōmatos, “false step”; cf. vv. 15–17, 20) was condemnation (katakrima, “punishment”; cf. v. 16) for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. The “one righteous act” (lit. Gr.) was Christ’s death on the cross. One trespass (Adam’s sin) is contrasted with one righteous act (Christ’s sacrifice). The result of Adam’s sin (everyone under God’s condemnation) is contrasted with the result of Christ’s work (justification offered to all). One brought death; the other brings life. Once again the “all men” in the first half of the sentence includes the entire human race (cf. “all men” in v. 12, and “the many” in the first half of v. 15). This implies the same dimensions for the “all men” in the second half of the verse (cf. “many” in the second halves of vv. 16, 19). The provision in the one righteous act, therefore, is potential and it comes to the entire human race as the offer and opportunity which are applied only to “those who receive” (v. 17).[2] Bible Knowledge commentary Romans 5:18,19

1, 2. I exhort, first of all. This chapter contains some directions concerning public worship. Paul probably means that, first in order, prayers should be offered for all men, etc. So says Conybeare and Howson, and many others. Thus should the worship open. Supplications, prayers, intercessions. It is difficult to distinguish between these three words. “Perhaps the idea in ’supplication’ is that of want; in ’prayers’ that of solemn devotion, and in ’intercessions’ that of individual petitions to God.”—Plumptree. 2. For kings, and for all that are in authority. For all rulers over us. This duty is not dependent on the righteousness of the rulers. The Roman emperors were intensely wicked. Jews were enjoined to pray for their heathen rulers (Jer. 29:7; Ezra 6:10). That we may lead, etc. The special object of these prayers is that the earthly rulers may be so overruled that Christians shall live and worship in peace. Wars, seditions and persecutions would be injurious to the saints.

3, 4. For this. This custom of praying for rulers. Our prayers should be as comprehensive as the will of God to save. 4. Who will have all men to be saved. The Scriptures uniformly represent it as the divine will that all should come to life. But he does not will to save men irrespective of the conditions of salvation. They must, in order to be saved, come to a knowledge of the truth. In other words, must hear, receive, and obey the gospel.

5–7. For there is one God. One God of all men, not many gods. Hence the One God desires equally the salvation of all his creatures. And one mediator. For all men. The gospel scheme is universal. The man, Christ Jesus. Taking upon himself manhood in order to be the Savior of all men. 6. Who gave himself a ransom for all. Not for an elect nation, like the Jews, or for the elect individuals arbitrarily selected, but for all men. All men have been redeemed by his blood, if they will accept the ransom[4] People’s new testament

1 Timothy 4:10

To this end (εἰς τουτο [eis touto]). The godliness (εὐσεβεια [eusebeia]) of verse 8. See 2 Cor. 6:10 as Paul’s own commentary. We labour (κοπιωμεν [kopiōmen], Col. 1:29) and strive (και ἀγωνιζομεθα [kai agōnizometha], Col. 1:29). Both Pauline words. Because we have set our hope (ὁτι ἐλπικαμεν [hoti elpikamen]). Perfect active indicative of ἐλπιζω [elpizō] (Rom. 15:12). Saviour of all men (σωτηρ παντων ἀνθρωπων [sōtēr pantōn anthrōpōn]). See 1:1 for σωτηρ [sōtēr] applied to God as here. Not that all men “are saved” in the full sense, but God gives life (6:13) to all (Acts 17:28). Specially of them that believe (μαλιστα πιστων [malista pistōn]). Making a distinction in the kinds of salvation meant. “While God is potentially Saviour of all, He is actually Saviour of the πιστοι [pistoi]” (White). So Jesus is termed “Saviour of the World” (John 4:42). Cf. Gal. 6:10.[5] Word pictures in the New testament

First, prayers are to be offered for everyone (1). Secondly, God our Saviour wants all men (nrsv ‘desires everyone’) to be saved (3–4). Thirdly, Christ Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all men (6, nrsv ‘for all’). Fourthly, Paul was a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles (7), that is, to all the nations or to everyone. There can be no doubt that this repetition is deliberate. These four truths belong together in Paul’s mind. It is because God’s desire and Christ’s death concern everybody that the church’s prayers and proclamation must concern everybody too.[6]
The message of 1Timothy and Titus John stott

1 Timothy 4:10

Who is the Saviour of all men] Who has provided salvation for the whole human race, and has freely offered it to them in his word and by his Spirit.[7] Adam Clarke

unto all men—The duty of Christian conduct towards all men is the proper consequence of the universality of God’s grace to all men, so often set forth in the pastoral Epistles.[9]JFB

1 Timothy 2:3

He who is “our Saviour” is willing that all should be saved (1 Ti 2:4; Ro 5:18); therefore we should meet the will of God in behalf of others, by praying for the salvation of all men.

1 Timothy 2:4

Paul does not say, “He wishes to save all”; for then he would have saved all in matter of fact; but “will have all men to be saved,” implies the possibility of man’s accepting it (through God’s prevenient grace) or rejecting it (through man’s own perversity).

1 Timothy 2:5

The one Mediator is mediator between God and all men potentially (Ro 3:29; Eph 4:5, 6; Heb 8:6; 9:15; 12:24).

1 Timothy 2:7

The universality of his commission is an appropriate assertion here, where he is arguing to prove that prayers are to be made “for all men” (1 Ti 2:1).

1 Timothy 4:10

He is the Saviour of all men potentially (1 Ti 1:15); of believers alone effectually.

2 Timothy 2:22

We are to love all men, but it is not possible to be at peace with all men, for this needs community of purpose and opinion; they alone who call on the Lord sincerely (as contrasted with the false teachers who had only the form of godliness, 2 Ti 3:5, 8; 2 Ti 3:5, 8, Tit 1:15, 16) have this community [Theodoret]. [10] JFB

The best that can be stated the interpretation is context sensitive but pretty much all commentaries include a universal application especially at critical texts Like 1T1 2:-6, 1Ti 4:10 1John 2:2 etc
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Great.
Then I use my brain, and I believe Scripture, and I reject your false teachings.



Not my job.
YOU are the one with the bogus claim.
Therefore YOU are the one with the burden of proof.
Not me.
You are trying to fallaciously shift the burden of proof.

You do this ALL the time!
1) You make a bogus claim.
2) You are challenged to prove it from the Bible.
3) You try to rationalize a bit, with lots of self-serving ASSUMPTIONS.
4) Then you claim, "YOU have not shown anything contrary".

YOU haven't shown where the BIBLE teaches "choose" to believe, or "decide" to believe.
Therefore I REJECT your false teaching, because it is not Biblical.




Jesus did NOT say "you can CHOOSE to believe".
Jesus did NOT say, "you can DECIDE to believe".

Sorry, you are simply wrong.



Straw-man.
And shifting the burden of proof.

You are ASSUMING that believing is a "choice", and then asking WHO "chose".
Believing IS NOT a "choice".
You haven't proven that it is.



I did NOT "ask" any such thing.
Please stop MISREPRESENTING me.

If you want to claim I "asked" something, then provide a LINKED QUOTE.



Another straw-man.
NOBODY has said, "God believes for us".

YOU have not demonstrated that the BIBLE teaches that belief is a "choice" or a "decision".

God gave me ears.
So I hear.
I don't "choose" to hear.
I hear, because my ears work.
I have no control over them.
But *I* hear, God doesn't "hear" for me.

God gave me faith.
So I believe.
I don't "choose" to believe.
I believe, because my faith works.
I have no control over it.
But *I* believe, God doesn't" believe" for me.

Seriously, it's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Now, it is YOUR job to show from the BIBLE that belief is something you "decide" to do, or "choose" to do. The Bible does NOT teach any such nonsense.
Seems you do not even know your own doctrine

Calvinism teaches man willingly choses Christ after regeneration

The special grace which we refer to as efficacious is sometimes called

irresistible grace. This latter term, however, is somewhat misleading since it does suggest that a certain overwhelming power is exerted upon the person, in consequence of which he is compelled to act contrary to his desires, whereas the meaning intended, as we have stated before, is that the elect are so influenced by divine power that their coming is an act of voluntary choice. Boettner The reformed doctrine of predestination



I’m not sorry that I don’t have to tell any stories about drugs, or going to jail, or sleeping around before I got saved; I’m glad. And I’m glad for those that get saved out of that, but I was dead and you’re dead apart from God. What God does then is take the blind, dead soul that has zero spiritual light or interest, and he opens the eyes — and what you see is Christ: no longer as foolish, no longer as stupid, no longer as boring, no longer as disinterested, no longer as false. You see him and his cross as compelling, and powerful, and wise, and beautiful, and wonderful. And you cannot not receive him.

That’s what it means to see him as compelling. That’s what I mean by irresistible. At that moment, your resistance is conquered. You were resisting God all your life, until the Holy Spirit opened your eyes and granted you an irresistible sight, which you feel so free when you make that choice. Desiring God

Opponents of this doctrine might suggest that if grace is irresistible then God forces someone to come against his own will. That is not the idea of irresistible grace, according to Calvinists. It does not make someone come contrary to his will. Rather, irresistible grace makes the individual willing to come, as is seen in Berkhof’s definition: “By changing the heart it makes man perfectly willing to accept Jesus Christ unto salvation and to yield obedience to the will of God.” Irresistible grace is the supernatural work of God wherein He works in the soul of the individual, changing the entire nature by the Holy Spirit’s operation.

In the logic of Calvinism, God, through His Spirit, draws precisely those whom God unconditionally elected from eternity past and Christ died for. Thus the purpose of God is accomplished. He elected certain ones, Christ died for those very ones, and now through the Holy Spirit, God dispenses His irresistible grace to them to make them willing to come. They do not want to resist.[1]

Moody Handbook of Theology

irresistible grace: A term that refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, both of which guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. This term is subject to misunderstanding since it seems to imply that people do not make a voluntary, willing choice in responding to the gospel. (34A)[2] Gruden Systematic theology

Regeneration becomes personally effectual for an individual when he is willing to receive the life of Jesus Christ in him by a freely chosen response of faith.

The Regeneration of Man

©1998 by James A. Fowler



[1] Paul P. Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1989), 484.
[2] Wayne A. Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Leicester, England; Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press; Zondervan Pub. House, 2004), 1246.
 
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