John 14:6 and the salvation of infants

squirrelyguy

Well-known member
John 14:6 gets quoted a lot in regards to the exclusivity of Christ. Specifically, we Christians use this verse to dispel the notion that a person can go to heaven if they never express a deliberate belief in Christ during this lifetime. Thus, we rule out any hope of salvation for people who die without having heard the gospel.

But my question for CARM is this: is there a principled way to use John 14:6 in this manner, and yet believe that children who die in infancy can go to heaven? If so, I would be eager to hear it.

And if children who die in infancy can go to heaven despite John 14:6, then on what principled basis can we say that John 14:6 rules out any hope of salvation for those who die without having heard the gospel?
 
Infants who have never sinned obviously can't be condemned to Hell. Romans 7:9 says, "I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died." Until we willfully sin we don't need forgiveness.

Many have never heard the gospel but everyone has some knowledge of God. His existence and power are reveled through his creation. Also we have an inborn consciousness of right and wrong. These things should be enough to stimulate us to seek to find out more about God and God has promised that all who genuinely seek him will find him. But many people suppress this knowledge and therefore are justly condemned.

In judging us God takes into consideration how much we know. Those who have never heard the gospel will be better off than those who have heard it and rejected it.
 
Infants who have never sinned obviously can't be condemned to Hell. Romans 7:9 says, "I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died." Until we willfully sin we don't need forgiveness.

Many have never heard the gospel but everyone has some knowledge of God. His existence and power are reveled through his creation. Also we have an inborn consciousness of right and wrong. These things should be enough to stimulate us to seek to find out more about God and God has promised that all who genuinely seek him will find him. But many people suppress this knowledge and therefore are justly condemned.

In judging us God takes into consideration how much we know. Those who have never heard the gospel will be better off than those who have heard it and rejected it.
From the 1689 confession of faith;

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling​

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )


4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
 
Infants who have never sinned obviously can't be condemned to Hell.

Where do you find "infants who have never sinned"?

"All have sinned".

I guess "all" doesn't mean, "all" right?

Romans 7:9 says, "I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died." Until we willfully sin we don't need forgiveness.

Maybe you are misinterpreting this verse?
Scripture teaches infants come from the womb speaking lies (clearly a metaphor for sin in general), and that David was conceived in sin.

And again, "ALL have sinned", not merely "SOME have sinned".

In judging us God takes into consideration how much we know. Those who have never heard the gospel will be better off than those who have heard it and rejected it.

If that were true, then:

1) It would be better that we never preach the gospel to anyone;

2) You would have to praise abortionists, for murdering babies, and sending them to heaven before they have an opportunity to sin.
 
And if children who die in infancy can go to heaven despite John 14:6, then on what principled basis can we say that John 14:6 rules out any hope of salvation for those who die without having heard the gospel?

I see two problems...

1) It seems that you already know what you WANT to believe, and wish to twist Scripture to get there. That is the exact opposite of what you should do. The proper order is to determine what Scripture is teaching, and then believe THAT.

2) John 14:6 says nothing about "having to hear the gospel", or "expressing a deliberate belief in Christ".
 
2) John 14:6 says nothing about "having to hear the gospel", or "expressing a deliberate belief in Christ".
My point is that it is used as an exclusivist prooftext. But no matter; you can substitute any number of other exclusivist verses in its place and my question applies all the same. You could insert Mark 16:16 here ("He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned") and ask the same question; if this verse doesn't rule out the salvation of infants, on what principled basis could we say that it rules out the salvation of some adults who have never believed in Christ? Take your pick of exclusivist prooftexts and run this thought experiment.
 
My point is that it is used as an exclusivist prooftext. But no matter; you can substitute any number of other exclusivist verses in its place and my question applies all the same. You could insert Mark 16:16 here ("He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned") and ask the same question; if this verse doesn't rule out the salvation of infants, on what principled basis could we say that it rules out the salvation of some adults who have never believed in Christ? Take your pick of exclusivist prooftexts and run this thought experiment.

Well, for starters, you picked a really bad example. Because it's almost certain that Mark 16:9-20 were a later addition to that gospel. So I wouldn't base anything on that verse. Further, it's errantly used to try to "prove" the necessity of baptism, which it doesn't even teach.

I suggest we simply obey and believe God. He says we are to proclaim the gospel, and those who believe will be saved. I think telling people, "Don't worry about not believing the gospel, that's not necessary, God will save you anyway" is incredibly problematic.
 
Where do you find "infants who have never sinned"?

"All have sinned".

I guess "all" doesn't mean, "all" right?
Romans 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Titus 1:15 "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."

now this, Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."

now a child, Matthew 18:2 "And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them," Matthew 18:3 "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

:ninja:
 
Romans 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

Where does that say that not all are sinners, contrary to Rom. 3:23?

Titus 1:15 "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."

Where does that say that not all are sinners, contrary to Rom. 3:23?

now this, Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God."

Where does that say that not all are sinners, contrary to Rom. 3:23?

now a child, Matthew 18:2 "And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them," Matthew 18:3 "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

:ninja:

Where does that say that not all are sinners, contrary to Rom. 3:23?

Are you claiming we have to be sinless before we can approach Jesus?
 
Where does that say that not all are sinners, contrary to Rom. 3:23?



Where does that say that not all are sinners, contrary to Rom. 3:23?



Where does that say that not all are sinners, contrary to Rom. 3:23?



Where does that say that not all are sinners, contrary to Rom. 3:23?

Are you claiming we have to be sinless before we can approach Jesus?
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" did you not READ? Matthew 18:2 "And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them," Matthew 18:3 "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus said unto you, yes you sinner, be converted, well one don't convert unless they sinned. and the Lord Jesus made it clear, Matthew 18:3 "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

so if one is LIKE LITTLE CHILDREN ONE CAN ENTER, well what if one is a little CHILD? the principle applies. My God how hard is it to understand?

well for the Layman, who is blind.
The term “ALL” is not inclusive, unless qualified. Example, Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." here all is qualified, and do not include “EVERYONE” in Rome.. so the apostle is not speaking to EVERYONE in Rome.

For “all” have sinned, again is qualified, those who have sinned, past tense, but if there are those who have, past tense not sinned, as with the innocent, babies, and children, (Pure in Heart), not of age or do not know right from wrong yet, (who is not in the Faith to believe, or even aware of sin), then they have not sinned.

look for the qualification in ?ALL, to see if it includes EVERYONE. My God, is it that hard to understand a simple truth

please study Matthew 18:3. the TRUTH will make you FREE of that "all have sinned nonsense" where it is not qualified.

:ninja:
 
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" did you not READ? Matthew 18:2 "And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them," Matthew 18:3 "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Jesus said unto you, yes you sinner, be converted, well one don't convert unless they sinned. and the Lord Jesus made it clear, Matthew 18:3 "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

so if one is LIKE LITTLE CHILDREN ONE CAN ENTER, well what if one is a little CHILD? the principle applies. My God how hard is it to understand?

well for the Layman, who is blind.
The term “ALL” is not inclusive, unless qualified. Example, Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." here all is qualified, and do not include “EVERYONE” in Rome.. so the apostle is not speaking to EVERYONE in Rome.

For “all” have sinned, again is qualified, those who have sinned, past tense, but if there are those who have, past tense not sinned, as with the innocent, babies, and children, (Pure in Heart), not of age or do not know right from wrong yet, (who is not in the Faith to believe, or even aware of sin), then they have not sinned.

look for the qualification in ?ALL, to see if it includes EVERYONE. My God, is it that hard to understand a simple truth

please study Matthew 18:3. the TRUTH will make you FREE of that "all have sinned nonsense" where it is not qualified.

:ninja:

So you can't answer.
Thank you for your time.
 
John 14:6 gets quoted a lot in regards to the exclusivity of Christ. Specifically, we Christians use this verse to dispel the notion that a person can go to heaven if they never express a deliberate belief in Christ during this lifetime. Thus, we rule out any hope of salvation for people who die without having heard the gospel.

Jesus is not talking about "going to heaven" when they die.

He is talking about coming to the Father right now in this lifetime.

But my question for CARM is this: is there a principled way to use John 14:6 in this manner, and yet believe that children who die in infancy can go to heaven? If so, I would be eager to hear it.

And if children who die in infancy can go to heaven despite John 14:6, then on what principled basis can we say that John 14:6 rules out any hope of salvation for those who die without having heard the gospel?
 
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John 14:6 gets quoted a lot in regards to the exclusivity of Christ. Specifically, we
Christians use this verse to dispel the notion that a person can go to heaven if they
never express a deliberate belief in Christ during this lifetime. Thus, we rule out
any hope of salvation for people who die without having heard the gospel.

Folks need not hear Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in order to obtain protection
from the wrath of God. For example the eternal gospel per Rev 14:6-7 contains no
Hell, no Jesus, no star, no wise men, no shepherds, no virgin conception, no
crucifixion, and no resurrection.

Practically everything about Jesus is missing from the eternal gospel. And according
to Rom 1:18-20 quite a few people are in for trouble simply for refusing to accept
there's a supreme being and the cosmos is the result of intelligent design.
_
 
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