John 15:24 + 25 - Hating Christ without cause

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
The reason I bring up these verses is because Calvinists teach that God consigns people into a condition from which they will hate Him.
Here Jesus says that they saw His works and yet still hated Him, this speaks of a choice in the face of evidence
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Sigh


The same is true of both Calvinism and Arminianism.
Notice in his OP, he uses the words "reason", "Cause" and "Condition"; he is trying to make an Argument against Unconditional Election, or rather against Unconditional Reprobation. He said, "Calvinists teach that God consigns people into a condition from which they will hate Him"; that's a reason to Hate God, so our Hatred is not without Reason. I would say he is arguing against a Strawman instead of arguing against Calvinism, because he provides us with the Reason. Unconditional Election, or if you will, Unconditional Reprobation; is condition-less. He presents you with an argument for "Conditional Hatred"; IE an Act of God, and argues on this basis that people Hate God for no 'Reason, Condition or Cause'...
 
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Howie

Well-known member
Notice in his OP, he uses the words "reason", "Cause" and "Condition"; he is trying to make an Argument against Unconditional Election, or rather against Unconditional Reprobation. He said, "Calvinists teach that God consigns people into a condition from which they will hate Him"; that's a reason to Hate God, so our Hatred is not without Reason or Cause. I would say he is arguing against a Strawman instead of arguing against Calvinism, because he provides the Reason. Unconditional Election or if you will Unconditional Reprobation is condition-less. He presents you with an argument for "Conditional Reprobation", IE an Act of God; and argues on this basis that people Hate God for no 'Reason, Condition or Cause'...
They are tiringly, silly folk. However, I must remember, they are made in God's image, as silly as they act.
 

Bocco

Active member
The reason I bring up these verses is because Calvinists teach that God consigns people into a condition from which they will hate Him.
Here Jesus says that they saw His works and yet still hated Him, this speaks of a choice in the face of evidence
No it doesn't speak of choice.

25 But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’

They hated Him because it was prophesied that they would.

Luk 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Choosing means deciding between alternatives. It is rational. But doing something without a reason is irrational.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Notice in his OP, he uses the words "reason", "Cause" and "Condition"; he is trying to make an Argument against Unconditional Election, or rather against Unconditional Reprobation. He said, "Calvinists teach that God consigns people into a condition from which they will hate Him"; that's a reason to Hate God, so our Hatred is not without Reason. I would say he is arguing against a Strawman instead of arguing against Calvinism, because he provides us with the Reason. Unconditional Election, or if you will, Unconditional Reprobation; is condition-less. He presents you with an argument for "Conditional Hatred"; IE an Act of God, and argues on this basis that people Hate God for no 'Reason, Condition or Cause'...
You are missing a very simple statement and turning it into a complex argument that is a house of cards.
They hated me without reason, means He had done nothing to them for which they should hate Him, yet they hated Him. the first verse tells us that Christ did miracles in their presence. He gave them reasons to have faith, but He did not do anything to them which was worthy of their anger.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
No it doesn't speak of choice.

25 But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’

They hated Him because it was prophesied that they would.

Luk 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Choosing means deciding between alternatives. It is rational. But doing something without a reason is irrational.
To say that someone did anything just because it had been prophesied is a shallow theology.
It robs God of foreknowledge. It robs people of motive and responsibility.
There is a sense, especially in the life of Jesus, that He had to do everything so prophesy would be fulfilled and people could know He is the prophesiedChrist. But foreknowledgethat leads to porphesy is not solely about God making something happen. It is also about God knowing what will happen
 

Howie

Well-known member
You are right in that this condition affects everyone, regardless of theology. Some people after being shown truth, still hate God as if God has done something hateworthy to them
It's a predetermined result of the predetermined fall see Rom 3:10-18. Read scripture instead of listening to Arminians about Calvinists, eh??
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You are missing a very simple statement and turning it into a complex argument that is a house of cards.
They hated me without reason, means He had done nothing to them for which they should hate Him, yet they hated Him. the first verse tells us that Christ did miracles in their presence. He gave them reasons to have faith, but He did not do anything to them which was worthy of their anger.
So why did you start the Thread if it isn't against Calvinism?
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
It's a predetermined result of the predetermined fall see Rom 3:10-18. Read scripture instead of listening to Arminians about Calvinists, eh??
Note. I listen to Calvinists talking about what they believe and I look to the Word to see if it aligns.
There is nothing in the verses that speak of a predetermined result. Unless you believe that all foreknowledge can know is that which God predetermines.
So if God had not predetermined something, then God would not know what was going to happen.
Nobody can accept tht conclusion, so why accept the opposite that everything God foreknows is predestined?
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
So why did you start the Thread if it isn't against Calvinism?
Not sure why that question is relevant to the two verses in John 15, The issue is that they saw the truth and rejected it and they had no reason to do that. Other verses can explain their motivation, but looking at these two verses we know it was a reaction to being shown truth
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Not sure why that question is relevant to the two verses in John 15, The issue is that they saw the truth and rejected it and they had no reason to do that. Other verses canexplain their motivation, but looking at these two verses we know it was a reaction to being shown truth
Well carry on. I'll Lurk and see what comes of this...

Acknowledging that other Verses can come into play, is a good reason not to restrict the Posters when they want to use a Systematic Apology...
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Well carry on. I'll Lurk and see what comes of this...

Acknowledging that other Verses can come into play, is a good reason not to restrict the Posters when they want to use a Systematic Apology...
Shouldn't a systematic apologetic regarding a particular verse, start with that verse and then broaden out, instead of just making a doctrinal statement and thinking that it trumps something said about the verse?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Shouldn't a systematic apologetic regarding a particular verse, start with that verse and then broaden out, instead of just making a doctrinal statement and thinking that it trumps something said about the verse?
Well said...

But Pretexts don't trump any other Verses. Verses never lose their Exegetical meaning, just because a Pretext is put on a pedestal. It would be like putting one ethnicity on a pedestal, and not allowing other ethnicities any decency...

This is really what goes on around here all he time. Pay attention; people want their Verses placed on a pedestal, and all other Verses to bow down to them like Sheaves...

This is THE reason we have our differences. The more Verses you can fit onto your Pedestal, the closer to the God's honest Truth you will be...
 
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