John 15 Losing eternal life

Josheb

Well-known member
some interesting ideas here about what the pssage is not about. But I may have missed it if you focused on that section and said what you thought it meant, I may try to reread. or you can distill your post down to just your comments on that passage, thanks
I did state what the passage means. Do please re-read what I posted. The distilled versions is 1) this passage must be read in the context of scripture as a whole to be understood and a tree or vine produces its own kind of produce, especially since the entire teaching is predicated upon an analogy. The passage cannot and should not be read to say Jesus produces bad branches.
 

Josheb

Well-known member
@Alexander the adequate,

My bad. I have poor syntax in post #827. It should read,


I did state what the passage means. Do please re-read what I posted. The distilled version is 1) this passage must be read in the context of scripture as a whole to be understood, especially since the entire teaching is predicated upon an analogy and 2) a tree or vine produces its own kind of produce. The passage cannot and should not be read to say Jesus produces bad branches (or that branches produce themselves).



@4Him, would you please delete post #827? thx
 
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christ_undivided

Well-known member
how funny you are, you closed your mind to any answer in the way you asked your question by calling my use of proverbs "arbitrary"
That does not give the impression you are looking for an actual conversation

Of note your first claim was that I gave no scripture reference for "guard your heart" when realizing you were wrong you changed to a different tactic. Are you arguing just to be contrary?

Why the "funny" part?
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
@Alexander the adequate,

My bad. I have poor syntax in post #827. It should read,


I did state what the passage means. Do please re-read what I posted. The distilled version is 1) this passage must be read in the context of scripture as a whole to be understood, especially since the entire teaching is predicated upon an analogy and 2) a tree or vine produces its own kind of produce. The passage cannot and should not be read to say Jesus produces bad branches (or that branches produce themselves).



@4Him, would you please delete post #827? thx
I still don't see where you explained what thrown out and burned would mean to those branches in Christ.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
how funny you are, you closed your mind to any answer

Please stop misrepresenting me.

That does not give the impression you are looking for an actual conversation

If I ask a question, it's because I want to hear the answer.

Of note your first claim was that I gave no scripture reference for "guard your heart"

I never made any such claim.
You made a wrong assumption about what I was asking.
You seem to be LOOKING for reasons not to answer my questions.

when realizing you were wrong you changed to a different tactic.

I wasn't "wrong".

Are you arguing just to be contrary?

No, but you seem to be.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
In a nutshell it all boils down to the innate attributes of Gods nature / character as Father, Son and Holy Spirit . Theology ( the study of God ) must be formed by Who God is at its very core . Once we understand who God is eternally ( prior to creation ) God is immutable and does not change we can learn many things that we have been mislead and misunderstood about God. Gods innate attributes are different from His attributes that are related to His creation .

I will give you one to ponder .

Was God love within His being prior to creation ? Yes

Was God wrath( anger, retribution , vengeance) within the Father , Son and Holy Spirit? That answers is a resounding no

So from there we can see the difference in Gods innate ( primary ) attributes vs His secondary one . This is my premise for the Psalm 22 Jesus being forsaken by God misnomer thread . There is much much more I could talk about for hours on end with this topic . It’s the main reason I reject Calvinism - it’s not who God is . Only an unloving God would predestined most of mankind to hell for eternal punishment while saving a few elect . There is no love, benevolence, kindness in the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination and tulip .

Hope this helps !!!
I think everyone agrees that in eternity God had no wrath, that would be because there was no sin. The trinity is perfect and sinless and there is nothing to cause wrath. But men are sinful, and God hates sin. Consider Exodus 33:3 as God is sending the Israelites out of Egypt and into the promise land, He says, "I will not go up in your midst for you are an obstinant people and I might destroy you." Verse 5 reiterates the idea. "You are an obstinant people, should I go up in your midst for one moment, I would destroy you."
This destruction is not the fruit of love for their sin, but hatred
 
G

guest1

Guest
I think everyone agrees that in eternity God had no wrath, that would be because there was no sin. The trinity is perfect and sinless and there is nothing to cause wrath. But men are sinful, and God hates sin. Consider Exodus 33:3 as God is sending the Israelites out of Egypt and into the promise land, He says, "I will not go up in your midst for you are an obstinant people and I might destroy you." Verse 5 reiterates the idea. "You are an obstinant people, should I go up in your midst for one moment, I would destroy you."
This destruction is not the fruit of love for their sin, but hatred
You seem closed minded to a different view which is understandable, I was that way too for decades .
 

Carbon

Well-known member
You seem closed minded to a different view which is understandable, I was that way too for decades .
You never really had the view down actually. Proof is in the pudding. How you feel about prayer, and other essentials Is very telling.

If you desire to discuss actual biblical Calvinism, myself and others are willing to help. Perhaps we can explain certain areas you don’t understand. Just let us know.

Here to help
 
G

guest1

Guest
Biblical and Calvinism used in the same sentence is an oxymoron. That’s equivocating, conflating .

next
 

Josheb

Well-known member
I still don't see where you explained what thrown out and burned would mean to those branches in Christ.
This post isn't as long as it looks if the scriptures are removed ;).

The short version is: They aren't in Christ. In a more detailed understanding, a person can't be in Christ and not bear fruit in keeping with the purpose of his/her salvation. We are His workmanship. We, those who are actually in Christ, are created in Christ Jesus for good works, and those good works are ones God prepared before we were branches.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

As to the "thrown out and burned" part, think of Matthew 7's folks who claimed to know Jesus but didn't. Jesus tells them to depart and depart because they are not known by him. Knowing God is not enough to be saved. We must know and be known by God and known by God salvifically (God knows everyone, but He does not know them all as His adopted sons and daughters).

Galatians 4:4-9
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore, you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. However, at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?


If a person does not know God Christologically and is not known by God and His Son salvifically then s/he isn't a branch of the vine. He gets cut off. Many will claim to be branches, and they'll even claim to have performed miracles, cast out demons and prophesied. They will be known by their fruit.

Matthew 7:16-21
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

This is all rooted in the precept of fruit-bearing and producing a crop according to one's kind.

Genesis 1:11-12, 27-28
Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.... God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Plants bear fruit according to their kind as God designed that plant to do. Jesus is using a vine as an analogy of himself. He is the vine. In context, he is the vine of God. Remember also he is the last Adam, a man without sin, and completely obedient to God's commands, precepts, and Law. His mandate is to be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth and rule over it. He is the King of all kings, and the Lord of all lords. Subduing and ruling is what he does. He does not bear bad branches or bad fruit. He came the first time as a lamb to the slaughter to defeat sin, death, and the works of the adversary. He won. That is the fruit he bore. He did not ask anyone's opinion, human or angelic. He came first as a lamb to the slaughter and when he returns it will be with a sword of destruction. Same guy. Not two different Jesuses.

He used many analogies and figures of speech to communicate this reality. We are the wheat among the weeds. Wheat and weeds make look alike at first but when they come to maturity the distinctions are easily made. The weeds get harvested for destruction, the wheat, having produced grain according to its kind, is harvested for eternal life.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

For the one who sows to his own flesh might from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit might from the Spirit reap eternal life is NOT what it states. For the one who sows to his own flesh might from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit might from the Spirit reap eternal life and it depends entirely on the choices you make is also not what it says.

Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.

They thought they knew God, had been chosen by Him, called out by Him, and had special privilege but they were known by their words and deeds, their "produce."

The John 15 text is filled with conditional clauses. For example, Jesus says the branches are pruned and they are pruned specifically in order to bear more fruit. It is only the fruit-bearing branches that get pruned! Those that do not produce get cut off. Notice also the branch cannot bear fruit of itself :unsure:. That means the branch can only bear fruit dependent upon Jesus; apart from him the branch can do nothing, and the nothing-producing branches get cut off. The branches trying to produce on their own get cut off. The branch has to "abide" in him. The KJV translates this term variously as "dwelling with," "being present with," and it transliterally means staying or remaining with.

By definition, the unregenerate is not abiding in Christ. It is not, does not, will not and cannot.

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself....

Even if the branch did bear fruit of itself, it would be the fruit of the self, and not that of Christ. In the unregenerate it would be fruit of the flesh because the unregenerate has no Spirit by which fruit of the Spirit might be produced.



One other note deserves mention. In the analogy of the threshing floor (Mt. 13) Jesus speaks about the wheat being harvest and then having its "chaff" separated. Chaff is not a separate plant. Chaff is a part of the wheat. If we put all these analogies together then we necessarily understand two sets of winnowing, or pruning, occurs. The first has to do with the separation of the bad plants or branches from the good ones, and the second has to do with the separation of the bad parts of the good plants from the good parts of the good plants.

Luke 6:43-45
For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

That applies to Jesus, too. He is the vine, the tree of life. He bears fruit according to his kind.

Genesis 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Revelation 22:1-5
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bondservants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.


Whole scripture.
 
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Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
This post isn't as long as it looks if the scriptures are removed ;).

The short version is: They aren't in Christ. In a more detailed understanding, a person can't be in Christ and not bear fruit in keeping with the purpose of his/her salvation. We are His workmanship. We, those who are actually in Christ, are created in Christ Jesus for good works, and those good works are ones God prepared before we were branches.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

As to the "thrown out and burned" part, think of Matthew 7's folks who claimed to know Jesus but didn't. Jesus tells them to depart and depart because they are not known by him. Knowing God is not enough to be saved. We must know and be known by God and known by God salvifically (God knows everyone, but He does not know them all as His adopted sons and daughters).

Galatians 4:4-9
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore, you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. However, at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?


If a person does not know God Christologically and is not known by God and His Son salvifically then s/he isn't a branch of the vine. He gets cut off. Many will claim to be branches, and they'll even claim to have performed miracles, cast out demons and prophesied. They will be known by their fruit.

Matthew 7:16-21
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

This is all rooted in the precept of fruit-bearing and producing a crop according to one's kind.

Genesis 1:11-12, 27-28
Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.... God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Plants bear fruit according to their kind as God designed that plant to do. Jesus is using a vine as an analogy of himself. He is the vine. In context, he is the vine of God. Remember also he is the last Adam, a man without sin, and completely obedient to God's commands, precepts, and Law. His mandate is to be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth and rule over it. He is the King of all kings, and the Lord of all lords. Subduing and ruling is what he does. He does not bear bad branches or bad fruit. He came the first time as a lamb to the slaughter to defeat sin, death, and the works of the adversary. He won. That is the fruit he bore. He did not ask anyone's opinion, human or angelic. He came first as a lamb to the slaughter and when he returns it will be with a sword of destruction. Same guy. Not two different Jesuses.

He used many analogies and figures of speech to communicate this reality. We are the wheat among the weeds. Wheat and weeds make look alike at first but when they come to maturity the distinctions are easily made. The weeds get harvested for destruction, the wheat, having produced grain according to its kind, is harvested for eternal life.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

For the one who sows to his own flesh might from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit might from the Spirit reap eternal life is NOT what it states. For the one who sows to his own flesh might from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit might from the Spirit reap eternal life and it depends entirely on the choices you make is also not what it says.

Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.

They thought they knew God, had been chosen by Him, called out by Him, and had special privilege but they were known by their words and deeds, their "produce."

The John 15 text is filled with conditional clauses. For example, Jesus says the branches are pruned and they are pruned specifically in order to bear more fruit. It is only the fruit-bearing branches that get pruned! Those that do not produce get cut off. Notice also the branch cannot bear fruit of itself :unsure:. That means the branch can only bear fruit dependent upon Jesus; apart from him the branch can do nothing, and the nothing-producing branches get cut off. The branches trying to produce on their own get cut off. The branch has to "abide" in him. The KJV translates this term variously as "dwelling with," "being present with," and it transliterally means staying or remaining with.

By definition, the unregenerate is not abiding in Christ. It is not, does not, will not and cannot.

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself....

Even if the branch did bear fruit of itself, it would be the fruit of the self, and not that of Christ. In the unregenerate it would be fruit of the flesh because the unregenerate has no Spirit by which fruit of the Spirit might be produced.



One other note deserves mention. In the analogy of the threshing floor (Mt. 13) Jesus speaks about the wheat being harvest and then having its "chaff" separated. Chaff is not a separate plant. Chaff is a part of the wheat. If we put all these analogies together then we necessarily understand two sets of winnowing, or pruning, occurs. The first has to do with the separation of the bad plants or branches from the good ones, and the second has to do with the separation of the bad parts of the good plants from the good parts of the good plants.

Luke 6:43-45
For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

That applies to Jesus, too. He is the vine, the tree of life. He bears fruit according to his kind.

Genesis 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Revelation 22:1-5
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bondservants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.


Whole scripture.
He says in verse 2 "every branch in ME." Then verse 6 says if they do not remain.
You seem to be denying that Jesus says they are in Him, but they are and what happens if they do not remain.
That was what i wanted to discuss here, what dynamic is Jesus teaching?
Your discussion did not touch on those ideas, it appeared that you just went about looking at scripture that supported something you were interested in talking about.
 
G

guest1

Guest
He says in verse 2 "every branch in ME." Then verse 6 says if they do not remain.
You seem to be denying that Jesus says they are in Him, but they are and what happens if they do not remain.
That was what i wanted to discuss here, what dynamic is Jesus teaching?
Your discussion did not touch on those ideas, it appeared that you just went about looking at scripture that supported something you were interested in talking about.
Yes in Me has the same meaning as in Him, In Christ in Ephesians 1.

Good point . This is where doctrine must not supersede the plain meaning of the text . In Me, In Him , In Christ are all synonyms and interchangeable terms .

hope this helps !!!
 
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