John 15 Losing eternal life

G

guest1

Guest
I think everyone agrees that in eternity God had no wrath, that would be because there was no sin. The trinity is perfect and sinless and there is nothing to cause wrath. But men are sinful, and God hates sin. Consider Exodus 33:3 as God is sending the Israelites out of Egypt and into the promise land, He says, "I will not go up in your midst for you are an obstinant people and I might destroy you." Verse 5 reiterates the idea. "You are an obstinant people, should I go up in your midst for one moment, I would destroy you."
This destruction is not the fruit of love for their sin, but hatred
You seem closed minded to a different view which is understandable, I was that way too for decades .
 

Carbon

Well-known member
You seem closed minded to a different view which is understandable, I was that way too for decades .
You never really had the view down actually. Proof is in the pudding. How you feel about prayer, and other essentials Is very telling.

If you desire to discuss actual biblical Calvinism, myself and others are willing to help. Perhaps we can explain certain areas you don’t understand. Just let us know.

Here to help
 
G

guest1

Guest
Biblical and Calvinism used in the same sentence is an oxymoron. That’s equivocating, conflating .

next
 

Josheb

Well-known member
I still don't see where you explained what thrown out and burned would mean to those branches in Christ.
This post isn't as long as it looks if the scriptures are removed ;).

The short version is: They aren't in Christ. In a more detailed understanding, a person can't be in Christ and not bear fruit in keeping with the purpose of his/her salvation. We are His workmanship. We, those who are actually in Christ, are created in Christ Jesus for good works, and those good works are ones God prepared before we were branches.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

As to the "thrown out and burned" part, think of Matthew 7's folks who claimed to know Jesus but didn't. Jesus tells them to depart and depart because they are not known by him. Knowing God is not enough to be saved. We must know and be known by God and known by God salvifically (God knows everyone, but He does not know them all as His adopted sons and daughters).

Galatians 4:4-9
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore, you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. However, at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?


If a person does not know God Christologically and is not known by God and His Son salvifically then s/he isn't a branch of the vine. He gets cut off. Many will claim to be branches, and they'll even claim to have performed miracles, cast out demons and prophesied. They will be known by their fruit.

Matthew 7:16-21
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

This is all rooted in the precept of fruit-bearing and producing a crop according to one's kind.

Genesis 1:11-12, 27-28
Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.... God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Plants bear fruit according to their kind as God designed that plant to do. Jesus is using a vine as an analogy of himself. He is the vine. In context, he is the vine of God. Remember also he is the last Adam, a man without sin, and completely obedient to God's commands, precepts, and Law. His mandate is to be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth and rule over it. He is the King of all kings, and the Lord of all lords. Subduing and ruling is what he does. He does not bear bad branches or bad fruit. He came the first time as a lamb to the slaughter to defeat sin, death, and the works of the adversary. He won. That is the fruit he bore. He did not ask anyone's opinion, human or angelic. He came first as a lamb to the slaughter and when he returns it will be with a sword of destruction. Same guy. Not two different Jesuses.

He used many analogies and figures of speech to communicate this reality. We are the wheat among the weeds. Wheat and weeds make look alike at first but when they come to maturity the distinctions are easily made. The weeds get harvested for destruction, the wheat, having produced grain according to its kind, is harvested for eternal life.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

For the one who sows to his own flesh might from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit might from the Spirit reap eternal life is NOT what it states. For the one who sows to his own flesh might from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit might from the Spirit reap eternal life and it depends entirely on the choices you make is also not what it says.

Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.

They thought they knew God, had been chosen by Him, called out by Him, and had special privilege but they were known by their words and deeds, their "produce."

The John 15 text is filled with conditional clauses. For example, Jesus says the branches are pruned and they are pruned specifically in order to bear more fruit. It is only the fruit-bearing branches that get pruned! Those that do not produce get cut off. Notice also the branch cannot bear fruit of itself :unsure:. That means the branch can only bear fruit dependent upon Jesus; apart from him the branch can do nothing, and the nothing-producing branches get cut off. The branches trying to produce on their own get cut off. The branch has to "abide" in him. The KJV translates this term variously as "dwelling with," "being present with," and it transliterally means staying or remaining with.

By definition, the unregenerate is not abiding in Christ. It is not, does not, will not and cannot.

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself....

Even if the branch did bear fruit of itself, it would be the fruit of the self, and not that of Christ. In the unregenerate it would be fruit of the flesh because the unregenerate has no Spirit by which fruit of the Spirit might be produced.



One other note deserves mention. In the analogy of the threshing floor (Mt. 13) Jesus speaks about the wheat being harvest and then having its "chaff" separated. Chaff is not a separate plant. Chaff is a part of the wheat. If we put all these analogies together then we necessarily understand two sets of winnowing, or pruning, occurs. The first has to do with the separation of the bad plants or branches from the good ones, and the second has to do with the separation of the bad parts of the good plants from the good parts of the good plants.

Luke 6:43-45
For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

That applies to Jesus, too. He is the vine, the tree of life. He bears fruit according to his kind.

Genesis 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Revelation 22:1-5
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bondservants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.


Whole scripture.
 
Last edited:

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
This post isn't as long as it looks if the scriptures are removed ;).

The short version is: They aren't in Christ. In a more detailed understanding, a person can't be in Christ and not bear fruit in keeping with the purpose of his/her salvation. We are His workmanship. We, those who are actually in Christ, are created in Christ Jesus for good works, and those good works are ones God prepared before we were branches.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

As to the "thrown out and burned" part, think of Matthew 7's folks who claimed to know Jesus but didn't. Jesus tells them to depart and depart because they are not known by him. Knowing God is not enough to be saved. We must know and be known by God and known by God salvifically (God knows everyone, but He does not know them all as His adopted sons and daughters).

Galatians 4:4-9
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Therefore, you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. However, at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?


If a person does not know God Christologically and is not known by God and His Son salvifically then s/he isn't a branch of the vine. He gets cut off. Many will claim to be branches, and they'll even claim to have performed miracles, cast out demons and prophesied. They will be known by their fruit.

Matthew 7:16-21
"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."

This is all rooted in the precept of fruit-bearing and producing a crop according to one's kind.

Genesis 1:11-12, 27-28
Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.... God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Plants bear fruit according to their kind as God designed that plant to do. Jesus is using a vine as an analogy of himself. He is the vine. In context, he is the vine of God. Remember also he is the last Adam, a man without sin, and completely obedient to God's commands, precepts, and Law. His mandate is to be fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth and rule over it. He is the King of all kings, and the Lord of all lords. Subduing and ruling is what he does. He does not bear bad branches or bad fruit. He came the first time as a lamb to the slaughter to defeat sin, death, and the works of the adversary. He won. That is the fruit he bore. He did not ask anyone's opinion, human or angelic. He came first as a lamb to the slaughter and when he returns it will be with a sword of destruction. Same guy. Not two different Jesuses.

He used many analogies and figures of speech to communicate this reality. We are the wheat among the weeds. Wheat and weeds make look alike at first but when they come to maturity the distinctions are easily made. The weeds get harvested for destruction, the wheat, having produced grain according to its kind, is harvested for eternal life.

Galatians 6:7-8
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

For the one who sows to his own flesh might from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit might from the Spirit reap eternal life is NOT what it states. For the one who sows to his own flesh might from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit might from the Spirit reap eternal life and it depends entirely on the choices you make is also not what it says.

Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.

John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.

They thought they knew God, had been chosen by Him, called out by Him, and had special privilege but they were known by their words and deeds, their "produce."

The John 15 text is filled with conditional clauses. For example, Jesus says the branches are pruned and they are pruned specifically in order to bear more fruit. It is only the fruit-bearing branches that get pruned! Those that do not produce get cut off. Notice also the branch cannot bear fruit of itself :unsure:. That means the branch can only bear fruit dependent upon Jesus; apart from him the branch can do nothing, and the nothing-producing branches get cut off. The branches trying to produce on their own get cut off. The branch has to "abide" in him. The KJV translates this term variously as "dwelling with," "being present with," and it transliterally means staying or remaining with.

By definition, the unregenerate is not abiding in Christ. It is not, does not, will not and cannot.

John 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself....

Even if the branch did bear fruit of itself, it would be the fruit of the self, and not that of Christ. In the unregenerate it would be fruit of the flesh because the unregenerate has no Spirit by which fruit of the Spirit might be produced.



One other note deserves mention. In the analogy of the threshing floor (Mt. 13) Jesus speaks about the wheat being harvest and then having its "chaff" separated. Chaff is not a separate plant. Chaff is a part of the wheat. If we put all these analogies together then we necessarily understand two sets of winnowing, or pruning, occurs. The first has to do with the separation of the bad plants or branches from the good ones, and the second has to do with the separation of the bad parts of the good plants from the good parts of the good plants.

Luke 6:43-45
For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

That applies to Jesus, too. He is the vine, the tree of life. He bears fruit according to his kind.

Genesis 2:9
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Revelation 22:1-5
Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bondservants will serve Him; they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.


Whole scripture.
He says in verse 2 "every branch in ME." Then verse 6 says if they do not remain.
You seem to be denying that Jesus says they are in Him, but they are and what happens if they do not remain.
That was what i wanted to discuss here, what dynamic is Jesus teaching?
Your discussion did not touch on those ideas, it appeared that you just went about looking at scripture that supported something you were interested in talking about.
 
G

guest1

Guest
He says in verse 2 "every branch in ME." Then verse 6 says if they do not remain.
You seem to be denying that Jesus says they are in Him, but they are and what happens if they do not remain.
That was what i wanted to discuss here, what dynamic is Jesus teaching?
Your discussion did not touch on those ideas, it appeared that you just went about looking at scripture that supported something you were interested in talking about.
Yes in Me has the same meaning as in Him, In Christ in Ephesians 1.

Good point . This is where doctrine must not supersede the plain meaning of the text . In Me, In Him , In Christ are all synonyms and interchangeable terms .

hope this helps !!!
 

Josheb

Well-known member
He says in verse 2 "every branch in ME." Then verse 6 says if they do not remain.
You seem to be denying that Jesus says they are in Him, but they are and what happens if they do not remain.
That was what i wanted to discuss here, what dynamic is Jesus teaching?
Your discussion did not touch on those ideas, it appeared that you just went about looking at scripture that supported something you were interested in talking about.
lol! No, that is a conditional clause. Just because the word "if" is not stated does not mean it does not apply. The word "if" is stated three times in this passage, thereby making the conditional nature of the entire passage visible. Furthermore, as I have tried to emphasize, the passage must be read in light of whole scripture because any premise Jesus is producing fruitlessness of any kind is antithetical to his being the Son of God, the anointed one of God. Simply put, that would be a bad Christology.
You seem to be denying....
....it appeared that you just went about looking.....
I have noticed the comfort with which several posters in this op make assumptions about each other and do so negatively, derisively, dismissively. At least one poster has noted the ad hominem nature of that content.

I am going to ask you not to do that with me. Find some other wording to communicate any short comings thought to occur. If you are going to make assumptions about me, my motives, or the content of the posts then try to do so in an edifying manner. I am open to correction, but I don't read anyone finding any flaw with anything I have posted. If a flaw is found, then please state it plainly without impugning me personally in any way. Or better yet, ask instead of tell. I can clarify or articulate for myself anything that I haven't made clear.

It was just suggested verse 2 is a given, not a condition.

Okay. I can discuss that. Just do it without the ad hominems or straw men, please.

The reason verse 2 cannot be a given is because the logically necessary conclusion to that verse as a given is that Jesus produced bad branches. Jesus does not produce bad branches. A good plant does not produce bad fruit; it produces fruit of its kind and Jesus is the tree of life. I did in fact address this earlier. I did not overlook it or deny it. I addressed it in a direct and straightforward manner with directly scripturally self-relating scripture sampled from the whole of scripture.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
He says in verse 2 "every branch in ME." Then verse 6 says if they do not remain.
You seem to be denying that Jesus says they are in Him, but they are and what happens if they do not remain.

Maybe we aren't denying Jesus' teaching, but only your interpretation therein.
There seems to be an incredible lack of charity in this forum, sadly.

"2. Branch (klēma). Old word from klaō, to break, common in LXX for offshoots of the vine, in N.T. only here (verses 2-6), elsewhere in N.T. klados (Mark 4:32, etc.), also from klaō, both words meaning tender and easily broken parts. In me (en emoi). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mē pheron karpon) the vine-dresser “takes away” (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. Cleanseth (kathairei). Present active indicative of old verb kathairō (clean) as in verse 3, only use in N.T., common in the inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing, though katharizō is more frequent (Heb. 10:2). That it may bear more fruit (hina karpon pleiona pherēi). Purpose clause with hina and present active subjunctive of pherō, “that it may keep on bearing more fruit” (more and more). A good test for modern Christians and church members."
-- A.T. Robertson, "Word Pictures".

Those "in me" who do not bear fruit are not in Him "spiritually".

" 15:2. He (i.e., the Gardener, the Father) desires fruit, which is mentioned eight times in this chapter (vv. 2 [thrice], 4 [twice], 5, 8, 16). A progression is seen: fruit (v. 2), more fruitful (v. 2), and “much fruit” (vv. 5, 8). The fruit which God desired from Israel was loving obedience, righteousness, and justice (Isa. 5:1-7). Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He cuts off. The phrase “in Me” does not mean the same thing as Paul’s words “in Christ.” Here it is part of the metaphor of the Vine and seems to mean, “every person who professes to be My disciple (a ‘branch’) is not necessarily a true follower.” A branch that bears no fruit is obviously dead. Therefore, like Judas, it is cut off. (See comments on John 15:6.) Every year in Palestine gardeners prune their vines. They cut off the dead wood which has no life in it and trim the living branches so that their yield will be greater."
-- Bible Knowledge Commentary (Edwin A. Blum)

You don't have to agree, but it would be nice if you would realize we have valid reason for disagreeing with you, and we're not "denying Jesus' teaching".
 

Carbon

Well-known member
Yes in Me has the same meaning as in Him, In Christ in Ephesians 1.

Good point . This is where doctrine must not supersede the plain meaning of the text . In Me, In Him , In Christ are all synonyms and interchangeable terms .

hope this helps !!!
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Maybe we aren't denying Jesus' teaching, but only your interpretation therein.
There seems to be an incredible lack of charity in this forum, sadly.

"2. Branch (klēma). Old word from klaō, to break, common in LXX for offshoots of the vine, in N.T. only here (verses 2-6), elsewhere in N.T. klados (Mark 4:32, etc.), also from klaō, both words meaning tender and easily broken parts. In me (en emoi). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mē pheron karpon) the vine-dresser “takes away” (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. Cleanseth (kathairei). Present active indicative of old verb kathairō (clean) as in verse 3, only use in N.T., common in the inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing, though katharizō is more frequent (Heb. 10:2). That it may bear more fruit (hina karpon pleiona pherēi). Purpose clause with hina and present active subjunctive of pherō, “that it may keep on bearing more fruit” (more and more). A good test for modern Christians and church members."
-- A.T. Robertson, "Word Pictures".

Those "in me" who do not bear fruit are not in Him "spiritually".

" 15:2. He (i.e., the Gardener, the Father) desires fruit, which is mentioned eight times in this chapter (vv. 2 [thrice], 4 [twice], 5, 8, 16). A progression is seen: fruit (v. 2), more fruitful (v. 2), and “much fruit” (vv. 5, 8). The fruit which God desired from Israel was loving obedience, righteousness, and justice (Isa. 5:1-7). Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He cuts off. The phrase “in Me” does not mean the same thing as Paul’s words “in Christ.” Here it is part of the metaphor of the Vine and seems to mean, “every person who professes to be My disciple (a ‘branch’) is not necessarily a true follower.” A branch that bears no fruit is obviously dead. Therefore, like Judas, it is cut off. (See comments on John 15:6.) Every year in Palestine gardeners prune their vines. They cut off the dead wood which has no life in it and trim the living branches so that their yield will be greater."
-- Bible Knowledge Commentary (Edwin A. Blum)

You don't have to agree, but it would be nice if you would realize we have valid reason for disagreeing with you, and we're not "denying Jesus' teaching".
you say that a person can be in Him, though not in Him spiritually.
In your own words, what would it mean to be in Him, as opposed to being spiritually in Him.
Can we talk about your ideas and the scriptures they come from?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
you say that a person can be in Him, though not in Him spiritually.
In your own words, what would it mean to be in Him, as opposed to being spiritually in Him.
Can we talk about your ideas and the scriptures they come from?

Scripture interprets Scripture.
And your interpretation of the parable contradicts the rest of Scripture, IMO.
And Greek scholars concur that my interpretation is valid.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Scripture interprets Scripture.
And your interpretation of the parable contradicts the rest of Scripture, IMO.
And Greek scholars concur that my interpretation is valid.
That's right, I keep forgetting, you had told me that you are the one who does not want to discuss ideas about scripture.
I will try to remember, sorry
 

christ_undivided

Well-known member
Maybe we aren't denying Jesus' teaching, but only your interpretation therein.
There seems to be an incredible lack of charity in this forum, sadly.

"2. Branch (klēma). Old word from klaō, to break, common in LXX for offshoots of the vine, in N.T. only here (verses 2-6), elsewhere in N.T. klados (Mark 4:32, etc.), also from klaō, both words meaning tender and easily broken parts. In me (en emoi). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, mē pheron karpon) the vine-dresser “takes away” (airei) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. Cleanseth (kathairei). Present active indicative of old verb kathairō (clean) as in verse 3, only use in N.T., common in the inscriptions for ceremonial cleansing, though katharizō is more frequent (Heb. 10:2). That it may bear more fruit (hina karpon pleiona pherēi). Purpose clause with hina and present active subjunctive of pherō, “that it may keep on bearing more fruit” (more and more). A good test for modern Christians and church members."
-- A.T. Robertson, "Word Pictures".

Those "in me" who do not bear fruit are not in Him "spiritually".

" 15:2. He (i.e., the Gardener, the Father) desires fruit, which is mentioned eight times in this chapter (vv. 2 [thrice], 4 [twice], 5, 8, 16). A progression is seen: fruit (v. 2), more fruitful (v. 2), and “much fruit” (vv. 5, 8). The fruit which God desired from Israel was loving obedience, righteousness, and justice (Isa. 5:1-7). Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He cuts off. The phrase “in Me” does not mean the same thing as Paul’s words “in Christ.” Here it is part of the metaphor of the Vine and seems to mean, “every person who professes to be My disciple (a ‘branch’) is not necessarily a true follower.” A branch that bears no fruit is obviously dead. Therefore, like Judas, it is cut off. (See comments on John 15:6.) Every year in Palestine gardeners prune their vines. They cut off the dead wood which has no life in it and trim the living branches so that their yield will be greater."
-- Bible Knowledge Commentary (Edwin A. Blum)

You don't have to agree, but it would be nice if you would realize we have valid reason for disagreeing with you, and we're not "denying Jesus' teaching".

This would be consistent with

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being;
 

christ_undivided

Well-known member
That's right, I keep forgetting, you had told me that you are the one who does not want to discuss ideas about scripture.
I will try to remember, sorry

Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

1Co 10:28 for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

I don't understand your rejection. There is no life whatsoever if were not for God. Physical or Spiritual. God owns it all. You may not believe these Scriptures teach that fact but you can't deny it is a plausible explanation.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

1Co 10:28 for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

I don't understand your rejection. There is no life whatsoever if were not for God. Physical or Spiritual. God owns it all. You may not believe these Scriptures teach that fact but you can't deny it is a plausible explanation.
I am not following you drift. THose talk about God's sovereignty over the earth and its inhabitants. What did you think I disagreed with?
 
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