John 17:3 does not disprove Jesus is God

Fred

Active member
John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (NASB)

1. The same Greek word for "only" is applied in reference to Jesus being the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian in Jude 4 - and yet the Father is also the despotēs of every Christian (Acts 4:24).

2. The same Greek word for "only" appears in Revelation 15:4 in that only God is holy, but the same Greek word for "holy" is applied unto people (Titus 1:8). The reason that only God is holy is found in the very next clause in Revelation 15:4 in that it affirms that all nations will come and worship before Him. Thus, God alone is absolutely holy in that He alone is the proper recipient of worship. Since the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of worship demonstrates that He is absolutely holy (= God).

3. Whenever the "true God" is used in the Bible it is always used in contradistinction with idols (2 Chronicles 15:3; Jeremiah 10:10, 11; John 17:3; Thessalonians 1:9 and 1 John 5:20, 21). So the Lord Jesus is not ruling out that He is God, but He is contrasting that the Father is the only true God in comparison with all idols.
a. BDAG (3rd Edition): of God in contrast to other deities, who are not real J 17:3 (alēthinos, page 43)
b. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: the one, true God, in contrast with the polytheism of the Gentiles (ginōskō, page 117).
One member of the Trinity can affirm the other member of the Trinity is God.

4. Knowing the only true God (John 17:3) = Knowing the Lord (Hebrews 8:11; cf. Jeremiah 31:34).
One knows the Lord in the worship of Him (Jeremiah 24:7; cf. 4:1-4). Since knowing the Lord Jesus entails worshiping Him as being YHWH (which the Father approves of) demonstrates He is the true God.
https://forums.carm.org/threads/pau...lxx-unto-the-lord-jesus-in-romans-10-13.7415/
 
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Fred

Active member
1. The same Greek word for "only" is applied in reference to Jesus being the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian in Jude 4 - and yet the Father is also the despotēs of every Christian (Acts 4:24).

For any Unitarian my question is this:

Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?

If a Unitarian affirms the Father is then that would contradict Jude 4.
If a Unitarian affirms the Lord Jesus is then that would contradict Acts 4:24.
If a Unitarian affirms both the Father and the Lord Jesus are then say goodbye to Unitarianism.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
For any Unitarian my question is this:

Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?

If a Unitarian affirms the Father is then that would contradict Jude 4.
If a Unitarian affirms the Lord Jesus is then that would contradict Acts 4:24.
If a Unitarian affirms both the Father and the Lord Jesus are then say goodbye to Unitarianism.
I'm not a Unitarian, but when one claims that there is only one God, and then starts talking as if there are more than one, it becomes confusing to some. So I don't blame them for taking their position.

Your point with regards to contrasting God with idols is interesting in that idols are worshipped as gods, yet when Paul says that Christ is the image of the invisible god, he doesn't use the word "Idol" therefore Christ cannot be worshipped as a god. Instead, he uses the Greek word "eikon" (i.e. "Icon") which means that Christ represents God because that's what icons are. They are representations or representatives. They are like dignitaries or ambassadors from another country and are equivalent to the king, President, etc. in their authority abroad. Their words are the words of the king, President etc. They represent the person.

Jesus Christ represents the person, but God cannot be distilled down to a person. This isn't to say that God cannot be immanently present in a person, or even within all of humanity and this is precisely what happens after Christ returns and along with the elect, returns to the father when all are one.

Paul's insight in 1 Cor.8:6 is the most enlightening to me in that he distinguishes between God, the father who is the origin of all creation, and Christ the son who proceeds from the father and is the means of everything created.

He clearly distinguishes God from Christ, so if we're going to conflate the two, we can conflate all aspects of God as well. We don't do that which spotlights that we're still not being honest with ourselves. We're not any closer to understanding who Christ is than anyone else.

When we look at an image whether it be a painting or our reflection in a mirror, neither the image nor the mirror are who we are. Likewise, the persona that we construct and is identified with a physical body is no more who we are than any of the numerous component parts. Add them all together and we still don't have a complete picture.

When a person dies, we say that they have passed on, yet their body remains, and to a certain extent all of those ideas we associated with them still remain to some degree in our own minds. They are nothing more than ideas, and that is all they ever were.

In the same way, whatever ideas we may come up with for God, Christ, etc. are always going to be just ideas, hence the biblical prohibition against idolatry, or image-making. Our imaginations will never come close to knowing who God is.

The biblical authors simply point out that if you want to see the face of God, you need to look at his image, and that can never be seen unless or until one receives God's spirit.

At that point, it's difficult not to see God everywhere in everyone one comes in contact with, and this is exactly what Jesus taught, e.g. "whatever you do to others, you do to me", and "apart from me, you can do nothing".

So when we deny our persona, or ourself, Christ is revealed, and we begin to see others as God sees them through Christ.

Christ is the Symbol, Metaphor, Icon, mediator, medium, copula, image, means, representative of the transcendent God, but by definition, none of these things are God.


In a nutshell, even though Christ isn't God, for all practical intents and purposes, he might as well be. You can't look at God without looking at his image. There is nowhere else to look. Moreover, one cannot see God unless it is by the power of his spirit dwelling within.

This reveals a trinitarian reality which should never be conflated or confused with a trinitarian god.
 
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Yahchristian

Well-known member
John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (NASB)

The title of your thread is “John 17:3 does not disprove Jesus is God”.

I DO BELIEVE THAT !!!

There are three basic views promoted on this forum...

A) Jesus is not God incarnate
B) Jesus is the incarnation of one of three who are God
C) Jesus is the incarnation of God

I believe John 17:3 proves C, Jesus is the incarnation of God.

What in that verse leads you to believe B rather than C?
 

Fred

Active member
I'm not a Unitarian, but when one claims that there is only one God, and then starts talking as if there are more than one

I pretty much stopped at this point. There was no need for me to read any further when from the get-go your misunderstanding is evident.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
The title of your thread is “John 17:3 does not disprove Jesus is God”.

I DO BELIEVE THAT !!!

There are three basic views promoted on this forum...

A) Jesus is not God incarnate
B) Jesus is the incarnation of one of three who are God
C) Jesus is the incarnation of God
I would like to add yet one more, i.e. God is spiritually incarnate within Christ.
I don't know why my previous comment is emboldened. I didn't do that intentionally.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I pretty much stopped at this point. There was no need for me to read any further when from the get-go your misunderstanding is evident.
Since you see no need to articulate what precisely this assumed misunderstanding is, I will do the same and place you on "ignore".
 

Fred

Active member
I would like to add yet one more, i.e. God is spiritually incarnate within Christ.

I don't know why my previous comment is emboldened. I didn't do that intentionally.
God is spiritually incarnate in all believers (2 Corintians 6:16), but Christians are not to worship one another. Jesus is the proper recipient of worship. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Your belief fails big time.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
1. The same Greek word for "only" is applied in reference to Jesus being the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian in Jude 4 - and yet the Father is also the despotēs of every Christian (Acts 4:24).

Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...

1) Which of these statements is True?
A) Jesus IS the Father
B) Jesus is NOT the Father

2) Which of these statements is True?
C) The Master (despotēs) in Jude 4 IS the Master (despotēs) in Acts 4:24.
D) The Master (despotēs) in Jude 4 is NOT the Master (despotēs) in Acts 4:24.

I say A and C are true since there is only one Master (capital M).
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
I would like to add yet one more, i.e. God is spiritually incarnate within Christ.

I don't know why my previous comment is emboldened. I didn't do that intentionally.

Incarnate is defined as...

(especially of a deity or spirit) embodied in flesh; in human form.
"God incarnate"

In your view...

What is the difference between “God incarnate” and “God spiritually incarnate”?
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
incarnation: see definition 4.

Definition 4 is...

“the doctrine that the second person of the Trinity assumed human form in the person of Jesus Christ and is completely both God and man.”

That is the view of option B...

A) Jesus is not God incarnate
B) Jesus is the incarnation of one of three who are God
C) Jesus is the incarnation of God

But the verse you quoted simply says this...

“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

So what in that verse proves B rather than C?

I believe that verse shows Jesus is “God sent to earth” (incarnate).
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Incarnate is defined as...

(especially of a deity or spirit) embodied in flesh; in human form.
"God incarnate"
Good point.
In your view...

What is the difference between “God incarnate” and “God spiritually incarnate”?
The difference is in how people view the two. People tend to conflate them while I'm explicitly pointing out that there is a distinction between the contents and the container. These trinitarian doctrines become unnecessarily confusing when the two are conflated together.

So if we have a cup of coffee, we would never conflate the cup with the coffee, yet when it comes to the incarnation this is exactly what most people do. They just assume that Jesus is the spirit that dwells within his physical persona when the reality is that "jesus" is the name given to the physical persona.
 

Fred

Active member
Just to clarify your Trinitarian view...

1) Which of these statements is True?
A) Jesus IS the Father
B) Jesus is NOT the Father

2) Which of these statements is True?
C) The Master (despotēs) in Jude 4 IS the Master (despotēs) in Acts 4:24.
D) The Master (despotēs) in Jude 4 is NOT the Master (despotēs) in Acts 4:24.

I say A and C are true since there is only one Master (capital M).
You never answered the question in post 2.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
You never answered the question in post 2.

Your questions in post 2 were specifically asked of Unitarians.

I am not a Unitarian so I cannot answer for Unitarians.


Now can you answer my question for Trinitarians...

1) Which of these statements is True?
A) Jesus IS the Father
B) Jesus is NOT the Father

2) Which of these statements is True?
C) The Master (despotēs) in Jude 4 IS the Master (despotēs) in Acts 4:24.
D) The Master (despotēs) in Jude 4 is NOT the Master (despotēs) in Acts 4:24.

I say A and C are true since there is only one Master (capital M).
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?

Since you specifically asked Unitarians, I did not answer because people often assume if you answer a question aimed at a particular group that you must be part of that group.

But my answer to your question is YHWH.

1 Chronicles 16:31... Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, [YHWH] reigneth.

What is YOUR answer to YOUR question...

Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?

Notice the word “only” in YOUR question.
 

JNelson

Active member
For any Unitarian my question is this:

Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?

If a Unitarian affirms the Father is then that would contradict Jude 4.
If a Unitarian affirms the Lord Jesus is then that would contradict Acts 4:24.
If a Unitarian affirms both the Father and the Lord Jesus are then say goodbye to Unitarianism.
This argument is one I would expect a Oneness believer to make because it works against you.

Who is the only Master (despotēs) of every Christian?

If a trinitarian affirms the Father is then that would contradict Jude 4.

If a trinitarian affirms the Lord Jesus is then that would contradict Acts 4:24.

If a trinitarian affirms both the Father and the Lord Jesus are then say goodbye to trinitarianism.
 
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