John 3 and 10 indisputable points from the text !

civic

Well-known member
Born Again !


3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?


So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

conclusion: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

hope this helps !!!
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Born Again !


3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?


So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

conclusion: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

hope this helps !!!

The new birth is new life, the resurrection life of Jesus.

A man does not "choose" to be raised from the dead.

But he must first CHOOSE to die with Christ and trust that God will.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
did you believe before your birth from your mothers womb?

A human doesn't need to die before they are born from their mother's womb O foolish one.

It says born AGAIN remember? You need to die to your old life first.

You need to die to that old life together with Christ before you can be raised up with him to new life.
 

civic

Well-known member
A human doesn't need to die before they are born from their mother's womb O foolish one.

It says born AGAIN remember? You need to die to your old life first.

You need to die to that old life together with Christ before you can be raised up with him to new life.
evasion is your specialty.

and its OBVIOUS why you ran away from the question. John 3 tells it all in the OP why you run away from the truth.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
did you believe when you came out of the womb ?

I also noticed you ran from the 10 points which are directly from the text in John 3 on both births.

You have quite the fantasies don't you? Have you ever tried having a coherent conversation or is that just beyond you?
 

travelah

Active member
cart before the horse- life precedes faith- the dead do not have faith.
There is a problem there. How is it that you are buried in baptism with Christ (in Christ) and lacking faith? You must die before you can be raised in newness. This has always been a stumbling block for Calvinists. Nobody is in Christ lacking faith.
 

Tercon

Active member
Born Again !

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?


So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)

Yes, every person must be born from above, born again or have a spiritual birth in order to know and experience the Kingdom of God aka the reality of God.

2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
Yup, from flesh comes forth flesh.
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )

Yes, our spiritual birth must come from believing in what Christ done in and for us; he first believed and died us. And in him believing and dying and in us believing and trusting in what he done for us we go from a unbeliever (dead) and believer (life). And in so believing we receive the Holy Spirit his Spirit of truth from the incarnate truth to all truth and the reality of God.

4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)

Yup, we all know that the Spirit of truth and reality exist, because it is self-refuting to suggest otherwise. But how is it knowable to us? Is it known to us from or because of our physical senses or is it ONLY known and experienced in and by our belief and believing minds?

8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again

Nope, so how do we go from a unbeliever to a believer? Belief right. But because of whose belief, ours or Christ's? Also, is belief voluntary or involuntary?

9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work

10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.
Yup, God does something for us that makes His reality known to us, he even provides the method by which He is made known to us as well.
conclusion: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

Yup the physical birth is purely physical. And if our spiritual birth requires a belief in His reality, then something causes us to know His reality. What is the ONLY thing that cause us to know the truth and reality?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
There is a problem there. How is it that you are buried in baptism with Christ (in Christ) and lacking faith? You must die before you can be raised in newness. This has always been a stumbling block for Calvinists. Nobody is in Christ lacking faith.
Yep

Col. 2:13 —KJV
“¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”

is preceded by

Col. 2:12 —KJV
“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

that verse does not support regeneration before faith
 

travelah

Active member
Yep

Col. 2:13 —KJV
“¶ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”

is preceded by

Col. 2:12 —KJV
“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

that verse does not support regeneration before faith
We don't find any significant Reformed support for that order of salvation until after Dordt. Calvin placed faith before regeneration as did all the early reformers. It flies in the face of clear scripture.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
We don't find any significant Reformed support for that order of salvation until after Dordt. Calvin placed faith before regeneration as did all the early reformers. It flies in the face of clear scripture.
Well I agree the scripture is quite clear

 

JDS

Active member
Born Again !


3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?


So lets go through this point by point.

1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- nowhere in this passage does it say that a man chooses to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in both cases of birth God is the Active One and the one who is birthed is passive in the process.

conclusion: just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again)

There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.

hope this helps !!!
Nicodemus asked three questions of Jesus in the passage. The last question, “how can these things be” is one Jesus took 12 verses to answer. He took an illustration of some physical people from Num 21 who had been bitten by deadly fiery serpents. It was sure death. What was the solution. Was it just for Moses to infuse life. No, he was to make a brass serpent with the likeness of the deadly serpents and raise it up on the pole. Any one who was dying from the bite must look at the serpent on the pole and they would be given life miraculously. This is the picture from this story of new life and salvation. If you did not look you did not live. The looking equates to believing in the text.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Nicodemus asked three questions of Jesus in the passage. The last question, “how can these things be” is one Jesus took 12 verses to answer. He took an illustration of some physical people from Num 21 who had been bitten by deadly fiery serpents. It was sure death. What was the solution. Was it just for Moses to infuse life. No, he was to make a brass serpent with the likeness of the deadly serpents and raise it up on the pole. Any one who was dying from the bite must look at the serpent on the pole and they would be given life miraculously. This is the picture from this story of new life and salvation. If you did not look you did not live. The looking equates to believing in the text.
After chiding Nicodemus a little Christ got around to answer

John 3:10–16 —KJV
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
To whom does the Spirit give birth? To those who believe.

A little further down, we see this clarifying verse: John 3:18 he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

If it is totally in God's hands whether or not we believe, on what basis would He judge us for not believing?
 
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