John 6:44-45

Theo1689

Well-known member
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

When we come to Scripture, we must make certain that we are trying to determine what the AUTHOR intended to say, rather than what we WANT it to say to conform to our theology. Anti-Calvinists twist Scripture to preserve "free will" and to try to defend God from seeming like (in their eyes) some monster, and they say we're the ones who twist Scripture.

John 6:44 is an embarrassment to "Free-willers", and they would be much happier if it wasn't in Scripture. But it is, and so they have to deal with it, somehow. So they invariably try to use the next verse to nullify v.44. Now let us see why this not only does not work, but further study of the passage only gives more certainty that the Reformed view is the correct one.


John 6:44 No one can come to me ...

Jesus begins this part of his sermon with a statement of inability. "No man can come to me." This is the default position for sinful mankind. We are dead in trespasses and sins, and UNABLE to come. And left to our own devices, we never will (which is why Howie expressed how glad he was that God drew/dragged him). But this is a clear refutation of "free will". So free-willers have to turn this phrase on its head, and basically make it mean the exact OPPOSITE of what Jesus said, "ANYONE/EVERYONE can come to me, all they have to do is..." But that is NOT what Jesus said. He said, NO MAN can come. Fortunately, He provided an exception, so let's look at it.

John 6:44... unless the Father who sent me draws him.

Our "default" position is inability to come to Jesus. But God decides to show mercy and compassion, and out of the entire population of sinful humanity, God has chosen to elect a people to himself, and He will "draw" ("helkuo") them to the Son. This is the action of the FATHER, nor our own action.

And if you will note, I highlighted the word, "him", because it's a place-holder for the group of people God draws, and the passage will further inform us about this group of people. We're going to do an exercise called "follow the pronouns', which is very important for correctly understanding Scripture, or any other text. We need to know as we go from one phrase to another, and from one sentence to another, whether a passage is continuing to speak about the same person or group, or whether it's changed to another person or group.

Those of us who have been in Bible studies for many years have learned an expression, "What is the 'therefore' therefore?". "Therefore" is what we call a "linking word", and connects what follows with what just came previously. Other linking words are, "since", "because", "for", etc. And this is the way language works, whether spoken or written, that meaning flows from one clause or sentence to the next, usually with a constant subject.

John 6:44... unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

We have seen that the first occurrence of "him", is referring to someone the Father draws ("the Father ... draws him"). And by extension (IMO), it refers to all whom God draws. Then we read the promise, "And I will raise him". And we have nothing in the context to suggest that the second "him" ("raise him") is anyone different from the first "him" ("draws him"). Indeed, Dr. James White likes to point out (correctly so, IMO) that in the Greek, the two occurrences of "him" are only separated by two words:

John 6:44 ... ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν, κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ...
John 6:44 ..... draws .. him, .and-I ..will-raise . him ...

There is literally nothing inbetween the two occurrences to "him" to introduce a new object for God to be speaking of. They HAVE to be referring to the same person or group. What this means is that the same group that the Father draws, is the same group which will be raised up. There's no place for the person/group to change, no place for individuals to be added later, or to be removed.

Edit: I'm just copying-and-pasting a statement I wrote further below, because it emphasizes the point I made above:

"I don't think
he's interrupting his own sermon to give a commercial."

I don't think any reasonable person would ever want to argue that "He" and "His" are referring to two different people, since there is no contextual reason to believe so.



John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’

While there is no explicit linking word in the text, I think a reasonable person can conclude that Jesus is quoting from the prophets (Isa. 54:13), to support his immediately previous statement. (I don't think He's interrupting His own sermon to give a commercial for Isaiah.). So it is reasonable to conclude that the "they" in Jesus' citation is referring to the same group, "him", that He was referring to being "drawn" and "raised up".

It's also important that "they will all be taught" is in the passive voice. Again, God is the one doing the action. God is teaching "them", and in fact God IS teaching "ALL" of "them".

Isa. 54:13 All your children shall be taught by the LORD,

This is the verse from Isaiah that Jesus was quoting. I think it's very interesting, and very telling.
Jesus doesn't quote, "all your children", He paraphrases it with "they". And relating back to his previous statement, that would be referring to the group which was "drawn" and then would be "raised up".

I think it's also interesting that Isaiah says, "All your children shall be taught by the LORD", rather than, "all who are taught by the LORD shall become your children". Teaching is not the "cause" of being children, but being their children is the reason they ARE taught. It also says that "ALL" the children shall be taught, and so this cannot be referring universally to all humanity (since not all are taught), but must be referring to a select group. Hey, might that select group be the ones the Father chose to draw? I think so.


John 6:45 Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

Now here is where the "free-willer" tries to SMUGGLE in "free will". They want to say, "Well, there were some who CHOSE to take advantage of the opportunity to hear and learn", and because they made that choice, that's why God chose to draw them. But that is NOT what the passage says. While it is true that "heard" and "learned" are in the active voice, the reason they ended up hearing and learning is because of what Jesus said, namely that they were TAUGHT BY GOD. "Learning" is simply the result of God teaching us. No rational person says, "I am choosing to hear". No rational position says, "I am choosing to understand". Either we hear or we don't. Either we understand or we don't. It's not a matter of "choice" or "will".

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
John 6:45 Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

Let's look more closely at these two verses, and see how similar they are. I believe it is reasonable to assert that v.44 can be reworded as, "Everyone who has been drawn by God comes to me". So let's compare:

John 6:44 Everyone who has ........... been drawn by God .............. comes to me
John 6:45 Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

I think it is quite clear that these are parallel sentiments, and that the "drawing" is not a second and consequent action from the "heard and learned", but that they are referring to two aspects of the same action.

The "hearing and learning" is not the "reason" they are drawn by God.
The "hearing and learning" (under God's control/action) are the MEANS by which God draws them to His Son.
 
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—
yes men are drawn to God/Christ by revelation

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
Because I like to be thorough in my discussions, I will add this. I was going to include it in my OP, but it was getting rather long, and it wasn't directly relevant to the point I was making.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.

I changed the quote from the ESV to the KJV, because it makes my point in a better way. The KJV rendering of this verse is, "they shall be all taught of God". While this is how a first-year Greek student would likely translate the verse, it is an inferior translation. Not only is it ambiguous (a surprise to those who believe Scripture can only be interpreted in one way), but it is misleading.

How is it ambiguous?

Well, "they shall be taught of God" COULD mean, "they shall be taught ABOUT God".
Or, it could mean, "they shall be taught BY God".

To an English reader, the "about God" meaning would seem more natural. And as for the first year Greek student, "God" Is in the genitive, which is understood to be the possessive case, and usually uses the helper word, "of".

According to Dr. Dan Wallace, John 6:45 contains a construction which is referred to as the "genitive of agency" (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pg. 126):

"The genitive substantive indicates the personal agent by whom the action in view is accomplished. It is almost always related to a verbal adjective that is typically used as a substantive and has the characteristically passive ending -τος."

Wallace lists John 6:45, as well as John 18:16, Rom. 1:7, and 8:33 as "clear examples" of this construction.
 
...
The "hearing and learning" (under God's control/action) are the MEANS by which God draws them to His Son.
Yep, the law, the prophets, the scriptures, the good news.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
 
Because I like to be thorough in my discussions, I will add this. I was going to include it in my OP, but it was getting rather long, and it wasn't directly relevant to the point I was making.



I changed the quote from the ESV to the KJV, because it makes my point in a better way. The KJV rendering of this verse is, "they shall be all taught of God". While this is how a first-year Greek student would likely translate the verse, it is an inferior translation. Not only is it ambiguous (a surprise to those who believe Scripture can only be interpreted in one way), but it is misleading.

How is it ambiguous?

Well, "they shall be taught of God" COULD mean, "they shall be taught ABOUT God".
Or, it could mean, "they shall be taught BY God".

To an English reader, the "about God" meaning would seem more natural. And as for the first year Greek student, "God" Is in the genitive, which is understood to be the possessive case, and usually uses the helper word, "of".

According to Dr. Dan Wallace, John 6:45 contains a construction which is referred to as the "genitive of agency" (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, pg. 126):

"The genitive substantive indicates the personal agent by whom the action in view is accomplished. It is almost always related to a verbal adjective that is typically used as a substantive and has the characteristically passive ending -τος."

Wallace lists John 6:45, as well as John 18:16, Rom. 1:7, and 8:33 as "clear examples" of this construction.
So they will be taught by God

whose voice may be heard from many sources

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
So they will be taught by God

whose voice may be heard from many sources

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Still it is God who gives understanding. Eyes to see and ears to hear.
 
Still it is God who gives understanding. Eyes to see and ears to hear.
Everyone (almost) has eyes and ears

its how you use them.

Scripture is clear man is capable of hearing or reading the word and believing

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
Everyone (almost) has eyes and ears

its how you use them.

Scripture is clear man is capable of hearing or reading the word and believing

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
It is God who gives eyes to see and ears to hear.

It is God who gives understanding.

Proverbs 20:12
Deuteronomy 29:4

Deal with scripture.

Where is it written every man is capable hearing the word and understanding?

If this were so it's strange the Spirit is needed to understand the things of God.

The natural man CANNOT, ability, understand the things of God.

Christ Himself tells some they do not have eyes to see nor ears to hear.

Deal with it
 
It is God who gives eyes to see and ears to hear.

It is God who gives understanding.

Proverbs 20:12
Deuteronomy 29:4

Deal with scripture.

Where is it written every man is capable hearing the word and understanding?

If this were so it's strange the Spirit is needed to understand the things of God.

The natural man CANNOT, ability, understand the things of God.

Christ Himself tells some they do not have eyes to see nor ears to hear.

Deal with it
You ignore scripture proving your view false


not to also mention

the parable of the sower proves your view false

Luke 8:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



as does John 12:40 and Acts 28:27

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Acts 28:27 (ESV) — 27 For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’
 
You ignore scripture proving your view false


not to also mention

the parable of the sower proves your view false

Luke 8:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



as does John 12:40 and Acts 28:27

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Acts 28:27 (ESV) — 27 For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’
If belief is not a statute, 1 John 3:23, what is it?
 
If belief is not a statute, 1 John 3:23, what is it?

deal with scripture for a change instead of just posting endless questions

scripture refutes your claim men are given the spirit so as to have faith
 
Everyone (almost) has eyes and ears

its how you use them.

Scripture is clear man is capable of hearing or reading the word and believing

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Sadly, you abuse Scripture (and therefore stick the finger to God) by simply quoting "verses", and not saying anything about them.

You falsely accuse us of "running away" from Scripture.
You falsely accuse us of "not addressing Scripture".

Fine.

So I will "address Scripture" exactly the same way YOU have "addressed Scripture".

Here you go:


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


There.
Happy now?

I've "addressed Scripture" in EXACTLY the SAME way that you have.
So stop your complaining.
 
Sadly, you abuse Scripture (and therefore stick the finger to God) by simply quoting "verses", and not saying anything about them.

You falsely accuse us of "running away" from Scripture.
You falsely accuse us of "not addressing Scripture".

Fine.

So I will "address Scripture" exactly the same way YOU have "addressed Scripture".

Here you go:


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


There.
Happy now?

I've "addressed Scripture" in EXACTLY the SAME way that you have.
So stop your complaining.
Except they still show men capable of believing based on revelation


you did not deal with them at all
 
Prove it.
All you're doing is "claiming" things that aren't there in Scripture.
It's pretty lame.



I "dealt" with them in the EXACT same way you did.
Double standards much?
The verses did that

you simply ignore them

 
The verses did that

I see.
So you don't have to prove anything, you can simply hand-wave at Scripture, and falsely claim that they support your view when they don't?

How incredibly convenient.

Okay, you say "the verses did that".
I say, they don't.
Now what?

All you're doing is playing stupid games, Tom.
Stop it.
 
I see.
So you don't have to prove anything, you can simply hand-wave at Scripture, and falsely claim that they support your view when they don't?

How incredibly convenient.

Okay, you say "the verses did that".
I say, they don't.
Now what?

All you're doing is playing stupid games, Tom.
Stop it.
you do not see as all those verses show men capable of believing based on revelation and you do not address them

simply ignoring them

 
you do not see as all those verses show men capable of believing based on revelation and you do not address them

I see them.
They don't support your claims.

You haven't exegeted them.
If you don't know what that means, please read my OP where I have walked through John 6:44-45, little by little.

Try to do the same thing with your "proof-texts".
If you don't, then there is nothing for me to respond to.

simply ignoring them

The only thing I'm "ignoring" is your absence of exegesis.
Stop playing stupid games, okay?
 
I see them.
They don't support your claims.

You haven't exegeted them.
If you don't know what that means, please read my OP where I have walked through John 6:44-45, little by little.

Try to do the same thing with your "proof-texts".
If you don't, then there is nothing for me to respond to.



The only thing I'm "ignoring" is your absence of exegesis.
Stop playing stupid games, okay?
lol

you avoided them

Scripture is clear man is capable of hearing or reading the word and believing

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

how much exegesis do you need to see the apostle believes men might berlieve the truth based upon the baptists witness

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

how much exegesis do you need to see Christ states had they believed Moses thery would believe him

are you going to claim Moses was incapable of being believed

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis do you need to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men believe based on the apostles testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

that if preached to they could believe

sorry you are hiding and avoiding the scriptures

ignoring rather than dealing with them

PS you post references not full citations that do not even claim what you state with no exegesis but put them forth as evidence


quite a double standard you have
 
lol

you avoided them

Scripture is clear man is capable of hearing or reading the word and believing

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

how much exegesis do you need to see the apostle believes men might berlieve the truth based upon the baptists witness

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

how much exegesis do you need to see Christ states had they believed Moses thery would believe him

are you going to claim Moses was incapable of being believed

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis do you need to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men believe based on the apostles testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

that if preached to they could believe

sorry you are hiding and avoiding the scriptures

ignoring rather than dealing with them

PS you post references not full citations that do not even claim what you state with no exegesis but put them forth as evidence


quite a double standard you have

All you're doing is misinterpreting Scriptures.
I'm not interested in the garbage you spew.
 
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