John 6:44-45

Theo1689

Well-known member
John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


1) This passage is a long-contested one, as non-Calvinists don't like the plain meaning of v.44, and try to "twist" v.45 to try to make it mean something different.


"No one can come" speaks of total INABILITY on man's part. They "cannot" come. UNABLE. Who? NOBODY can come, so EVERYONE has this "inability".


2) Is all lost? No, because GOD does something, "unless the Father ... draws him". Those who are unable, and cannot come to Christ, they are unable, but God is not. God not only CAN draw people to Christ, but DOES draw a group of people to Him. This is GOD'S DOING.


3) And what happens to those who are drawn? The same "him" who is "drawn" ("the Father ... draw HIM") is the same "him" who is "raised up on the last day", and this a reference to being raised to eternal life, not just resurrection.



4) "And they shall be taught by God". This is a quote of Isa. 54:13. Unfortunately, the KJV renders this as, "they shall be taught OF God", opening up the misinterpretation of "They shall be taught 'about' God". Dr. Dan Wallace refers to the structure of, "taught by God" as a "genitive of agency", referring to WHO is doing the action, and points out that this structure is usually found in "loved by God", "taught by God", or "chosen/elected by God". Being taught BY God is the MEANS by which God draws the elect, it is not the "reason" God draws them. Otherwise, John 6:44 would be wrong, and would have to INSTEAD read, "EVERYONE can come to me, all they have to do is choose to learn about God". But that is NOT what the text says, it describes INABILITY to man, and ABILITY to God.


5) "Everyone who has heard and learned FROM the Father comes to me". Again, this is not in "instruction" set, "what list of actions do I have to do to get God to draw me?" This is HOW God draws the elect to the Son. The hearing and learning come FROM the Father. HE teaches us. HE opens our ears to His truth.


We are unable to come to Christ.
I would also say we are UNWILLING to come to Christ, but that isn't found in this particular verse.
God DRAWS His people to His Saviour, by cause them to hear and learn.

1 Thess. 4:9 even has an interesting hapax legomenon, "theodidaktoi", "God-taught".
 

TomFL

Well-known member
John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


1) This passage is a long-contested one, as non-Calvinists don't like the plain meaning of v.44, and try to "twist" v.45 to try to make it mean something different.

"No one can come" speaks of total INABILITY on man's part. They "cannot" come. UNABLE. Who? NOBODY can come, so EVERYONE has this "inability".


2) Is all lost? No, because GOD does something, "unless the Father ... draws him". Those who are unable, and cannot come to Christ, they are unable, but God is not. God not only CAN draw people to Christ, but DOES draw a group of people to Him. This is GOD'S DOING.


3) And what happens to those who are drawn? The same "him" who is "drawn" ("the Father ... draw HIM") is the same "him" who is "raised up on the last day", and this a reference to being raised to eternal life, not just resurrection.



4) "And they shall be taught by God". This is a quote of Isa. 54:13. Unfortunately, the KJV renders this as, "they shall be taught OF God", opening up the misinterpretation of "They shall be taught 'about' God". Dr. Dan Wallace refers to the structure of, "taught by God" as a "genitive of agency", referring to WHO is doing the action, and points out that this structure is usually found in "loved by God", "taught by God", or "chosen/elected by God". Being taught BY God is the MEANS by which God draws the elect, it is not the "reason" God draws them. Otherwise, John 6:44 would be wrong, and would have to INSTEAD read, "EVERYONE can come to me, all they have to do is choose to learn about God". But that is NOT what the text says, it describes INABILITY to man, and ABILITY to God.


5) "Everyone who has heard and learned FROM the Father comes to me". Again, this is not in "instruction" set, "what list of actions do I have to do to get God to draw me?" This is HOW God draws the elect to the Son. The hearing and learning come FROM the Father. HE teaches us. HE opens our ears to His truth.


We are unable to come to Christ.
I would also say we are UNWILLING to come to Christ, but that isn't found in this particular verse.
God DRAWS His people to His Saviour, by cause them to hear and learn.

1 Thess. 4:9 even has an interesting hapax legomenon, "theodidaktoi", "God-taught".
You seem to have left this out

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

We live after the cross
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
You seem to have left this out

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

I guess you are so unfamiliar with the Scriptures that you don't understand that John 12 isn't found in John 6.

I also guess you are so unfamiliar with the Scriptures that you don't understand is about JESUS drawing, while John 6:44 is about the FATHER drawing, so they aren't referring to the same thing.

I also guess you are so unfamiliar with the Scriptures that you don't understand that the Father is not the Son. Unless you deny the Trinity?
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
You seem to have left this out

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

We live after the cross
He said that for the sake of the Greeks who came to see Him. It doesn't mean every single person ever will be drawn.

Employ context.

Also another mistake you're making, by not employing context yet again or taking in the entire meaning, is the fact that all who are drawn are also saved and will also be raised. That is the exact meaning of the text in John 6:44ff. All drawn are saved (implied) since they will also be raised.

Therefore your error in John 12:32 is clearly seen because in the end you'd be preaching Universalism.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I guess you are so unfamiliar with the Scriptures that you don't understand that John 12 isn't found in John 6.

I also guess you are so unfamiliar with the Scriptures that you don't understand is about JESUS drawing, while John 6:44 is about the FATHER drawing, so they aren't referring to the same thing.

I also guess you are so unfamiliar with the Scriptures that you don't understand that the Father is not the Son. Unless you deny the Trinity?
Was that suppose to be a logical argument

Do you imagine we are in the period before the cross ?

Of course Jesus is drawing today so why are you concerning yourself with the Fathers drawing as it was before the cross

We live in the period after the cross
 

TomFL

Well-known member
He said that for the sake of the Greeks who came to see Him. It doesn't mean every single person ever will be drawn.

Employ context.

Also another mistake you're making, by not employing context yet again or taking in the entire meaning, is the fact that all who are drawn are also saved and will also be raised. That is the exact meaning of the text in John 6:44ff. All drawn are saved (implied) since they will also be raised.

Therefore your error in John 12:32 is clearly seen because in the end you'd be preaching Universalism.

That is not even the point

He quoted a scripture which was relevant to the time Christ was on the earth and before the cross

We don't live in that era
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
@TomFL there is no way you are here to learn or seriously read what anyone writes. You don't have nor do you take appropriate time to seriously read responses and answer before considering what was said. All you do is dismiss what was stated immediately.

What I said is exactly the point but you always drum up some lame excuse to totally dismiss it.

Frankly you're very disrespectful.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
1) I'm not interested in have a "discussion" with you.

2) My thread is about about John 6:44-45, not about John 12.

3) If you want to discuss John 12, start your own thread. Don't try to hijack mine.


Sorry but you do not get to tell me what I can post

If you are not interested in a discussion then don't discuss
 

TomFL

Well-known member
@TomFL there is no way you are here to learn or seriously read what anyone writes. You don't have nor do you take appropriate time to seriously read responses and answer before considering what was said. All you do is dismiss what was stated immediately.

What I said is exactly the point but you always drum up some lame excuse to totally dismiss it.

Frankly you're very disrespectful.

Frankly you don't know what you are talking about

there is nothing disrespectful about

That is not even the point

He quoted a scripture which was relevant to the time Christ was on the earth and before the cross

We don't live in that era

there is something disrespectful in bearing false witness and name calling something which you have indulged in

So You testify against yourself
 
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