John 6:44-45

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes there. That is a declaration that He made some to fit for destruction.
No

Rom. 9:22 —KJV
“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”

nothing there speaks of one born or fitted by God for destruction
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Yes there. That is a declaration that He made some to fit for destruction.
No it just states he endured them with much long suffering

Rom. 9:22 —KJV
“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”


“22. Willing (thelōn). Concessive use of the participle, “although willing,” not causal, “because willing” as is shown by “with much long-suffering” (en pollēi makrothumiāi, in much long-suffering). His power (to dunaton autou). Neuter singular of the verbal adjective rather than the substantive dunamin. Endured (ēnegken). Constative second aorist active indicative of the old defective verb pherō, to bear. Vessels of wrath (skeuē orgēs). The words occur in Jer. 50:25 (LXX Jer. 27:25), but not in the sense here (objective genitive like tekna orgēs, Eph. 2:3, the objects of God’s wrath). Fitted (katērtismena). Perfect passive participle of katartizō, old verb to equip (see Matt. 4:21; 2 Cor. 13:11), state of readiness. Paul does not say here that God did it or that they did it. That they are responsible may be seen from 1 Thess. 2:15f. Unto destruction (eis apōleian). Endless perdition (Matt. 7:13; 2 Thess. 2:3; Phil. 3:19), not annihilation.”

(A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2001), paragraph 4818.)
 

preacher4truth

Well-known member
And furthermore the determinist God Himself is predetermined, ie has no libertatarian choice as to create the world or not, or create other than how He did.

It's like God is an automaton that just follows a program. I guess we can't blame a robot for evil, so maybe God is not evil for unconditionally throwing people in hell.
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brightfame52

Well-known member
No

Rom. 9:22 —KJV
“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”

nothing there speaks of one born or fitted by God for destruction
Yes. God created them to fit them for destruction. No doubt about it.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
No it just states he endured them with much long suffering

Rom. 9:22 —KJV
“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”


“22. Willing (thelōn). Concessive use of the participle, “although willing,” not causal, “because willing” as is shown by “with much long-suffering” (en pollēi makrothumiāi, in much long-suffering). His power (to dunaton autou). Neuter singular of the verbal adjective rather than the substantive dunamin. Endured (ēnegken). Constative second aorist active indicative of the old defective verb pherō, to bear. Vessels of wrath (skeuē orgēs). The words occur in Jer. 50:25 (LXX Jer. 27:25), but not in the sense here (objective genitive like tekna orgēs, Eph. 2:3, the objects of God’s wrath). Fitted (katērtismena). Perfect passive participle of katartizō, old verb to equip (see Matt. 4:21; 2 Cor. 13:11), state of readiness. Paul does not say here that God did it or that they did it. That they are responsible may be seen from 1 Thess. 2:15f. Unto destruction (eis apōleian). Endless perdition (Matt. 7:13; 2 Thess. 2:3; Phil. 3:19), not annihilation.”

(A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2001), paragraph 4818.)
He is fitting them for destruction. He made them for that purpose.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
He is fitting them for destruction. He made them for that purpose.
The text does not say that

You are reading your theology into the text

Rom. 9:22 —KJV
“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”

“22. Willing (thelōn). Concessive use of the participle, “although willing,” not causal, “because willing” as is shown by “with much long-suffering” (en pollēi makrothumiāi, in much long-suffering). His power (to dunaton autou). Neuter singular of the verbal adjective rather than the substantive dunamin. Endured (ēnegken). Constative second aorist active indicative of the old defective verb pherō, to bear. Vessels of wrath (skeuē orgēs). The words occur in Jer. 50:25 (LXX Jer. 27:25), but not in the sense here (objective genitive like tekna orgēs, Eph. 2:3, the objects of God’s wrath). Fitted (katērtismena). Perfect passive participle of katartizō, old verb to equip (see Matt. 4:21; 2 Cor. 13:11), state of readiness. Paul does not say here that God did it or that they did it. That they are responsible may be seen from 1 Thess. 2:15f. Unto destruction (eis apōleian). Endless perdition (Matt. 7:13; 2 Thess. 2:3; Phil. 3:19), not annihilation.”

(A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2001), paragraph 4818.)
 

Kampioen

Active member
Yes there. That is a declaration that He made some to fit for destruction.
"Rom. 9:22 —KJV
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”

However, those fit for destruction still had libertarian lack of faith.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? **Because** they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
The text does not say that

You are reading your theology into the text

Rom. 9:22 —KJV
“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”

“22. Willing (thelōn). Concessive use of the participle, “although willing,” not causal, “because willing” as is shown by “with much long-suffering” (en pollēi makrothumiāi, in much long-suffering). His power (to dunaton autou). Neuter singular of the verbal adjective rather than the substantive dunamin. Endured (ēnegken). Constative second aorist active indicative of the old defective verb pherō, to bear. Vessels of wrath (skeuē orgēs). The words occur in Jer. 50:25 (LXX Jer. 27:25), but not in the sense here (objective genitive like tekna orgēs, Eph. 2:3, the objects of God’s wrath). Fitted (katērtismena). Perfect passive participle of katartizō, old verb to equip (see Matt. 4:21; 2 Cor. 13:11), state of readiness. Paul does not say here that God did it or that they did it. That they are responsible may be seen from 1 Thess. 2:15f. Unto destruction (eis apōleian). Endless perdition (Matt. 7:13; 2 Thess. 2:3; Phil. 3:19), not annihilation.”

(A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2001), paragraph 4818.)
Yes it does say that.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
"Rom. 9:22 —KJV
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”

However, those fit for destruction still had libertarian lack of faith.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? **Because** they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
God created them for destruction. They never had a chance to be saved.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
They can't believe this because they really haven't read their Scriptures. Instead they are google-logians who do engine searches on anti-calvinist talking points. Then they cut and paste their answers in here. Flower's website is worse on the brain than CNN.
Why don't you try to prove

Rom. 9:22 —KJV
“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”

indicates that God created them to be vessels of wrath from birth

Then we will see who read their scriptures
 
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