John 8:58 - Jesus VS. Trinitarians

[Our Lord's God]

Jesus
"Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing.... before Abraham was I am."
John 8:53-58

When the Jews asked Jesus just WHO he claimed to be, he said that if he glorified himself it means NOTHING.

Trinitarians
Before Abraham was I am." John 8:53-58

But Trinitarians say Jesus glorified himself as God Almighty telling us WHO he was and it means EVERYTHING.

So Trinitarians reject what Jesus said and claim that he went right ahead and did what he said he does not do.

So WHO do you believe? Jesus? Or Trinitarians?

 

[OldShepherd]

Jesus
"Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing.... before Abraham was I am."
John 8:53-58
When the Jews asked Jesus just WHO he claimed to be, he said that if he glorified himself it means NOTHING.
Trinitarians
Before Abraham was I am." John 8:53-58
But Trinitarians say Jesus glorified himself as God Almighty telling us WHO he was and it means EVERYTHING.
So Trinitarians reject what Jesus said and claim that he went right ahead and did what he said he does not do.
So WHO do you believe? Jesus? Or Trinitarians?

Move along folks. Nothing to see here just the usual cherry picked anti-Trinitarian rhetoric.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Jesus
"Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing.... before Abraham was I am."
John 8:53-58

When the Jews asked Jesus just WHO he claimed to be, he said that if he glorified himself it means NOTHING.

Trinitarians
Before Abraham was I am." John 8:53-58

But Trinitarians say Jesus glorified himself as God Almighty telling us WHO he was and it means EVERYTHING.

So Trinitarians reject what Jesus said and claim that he went right ahead and did what he said he does not do.

So WHO do you believe? Jesus? Or Trinitarians?

I believe that when Jesus said, "before Abraham was I am" in the first person present tense, he was still speaking of the vision of him that was with God in the beginning and that God gave to Abraham of the day of his coming.

Even though the Jews twisted his words to accuse him falsely and said, "you are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham"?

For they moved off on a rabbit trail with his words but Jesus never moved from what he stated, "Your Father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it and was glad".

For when he answered them after they twisted his words, "Truly I say unto you, before Abraham was I am" he was still speaking of this in regards to God's vision of his coming before the foundation of the world and that he gave also to Abraham.

What that meant, was that he was before Abraham was in God's vision and plan and that Abraham only existed in God's vision and plan for his purpose in sending Jesus through his descendants and not the other way around.

In this he also answered their question "are you greater than our father Abraham and the prophets who have died"?

Romans 8:29 reveals this also, for all of the saints including Abraham were predestined to be conformed to his image and that he might be the firstborn among them as brethren and just like Paul said and therefore Jesus his human Son was first and his firstborn in God's vision, plan, purpose and foreknowledge.

Therefore his being with those Jews in the first person present tense in his day (before Abraham was I am), was planned from God's vision before the foundation of the world and well before Abraham was predestined to be born in his day and that is what Jesus meant.


1 Peter 1:20, "Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was in these last days manifest for you".

 

[GeneZ]

Jesus
"Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing.... before Abraham was I am."
John 8:53-58

When the Jews asked Jesus just WHO he claimed to be, he said that if he glorified himself it means NOTHING.

Trinitarians
Before Abraham was I am." John 8:53-58

But Trinitarians say Jesus glorified himself as God Almighty telling us WHO he was and it means EVERYTHING.

So Trinitarians reject what Jesus said and claim that he went right ahead and did what he said he does not do.

So WHO do you believe? Jesus? Or Trinitarians?

You are not making any sense. In John 8:53-58 Jesus is saying that he has existed eternally.

Yet? You use that to say He is not God?

 

[Yahweh will increase]

You are not making any sense. In John 8:53-58 Jesus is saying that he has existed eternally.

Yet? You use that to say He is not God?

Yes but only as in God's vision or Logos, for Jesus never moved away from what he said, "your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it" and he was speaking about the vision of the coming of Jesus the human Messiah and Son.

This Divine vision or Divine Logos centered on Jesus and his coming was with "pros" God before the foundation of the would and through it, he also predestined all others who would become his sons through him to also be conformed to the image of including Abraham and as per Romans 8:29.

"For those whom he foreknew, them he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" and that included Abraham also.

1 Peter 1:20 "Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world but in these last days manifested for you".

Therefore if Abraham was also predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus as God's human Son and image and which Romans 8:29 very clearly reveals was the case, then the Human Son of God and Messiah Jesus Christ was the firstborn in God's vision and plan and predestination and that is what Jesus was speaking of when he said, "before Abraham was I am"

The fact is therefore, that Abraham was only in God's vision and plan following behind Jesus Christ who God had pre determined to have the preeminence as the firstborn over all creation and over all others who would be born again as his sons through him and then also be conformed to his image.

 

[OldShepherd]

I believe that when Jesus said, "before Abraham was I am" in the first person present tense, he was still speaking of the vision of him that was with God in the beginning and that God gave to Abraham of the day of his coming.

"[Jesus]was still speaking of the vision of him that was with God in the beginning" is assumption.

Even though the Jews twisted his words to accuse him falsely and said, "you are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham"?
For they moved off on a rabbit trail with his words but Jesus never moved from what he stated, "Your Father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it and was glad".
For when he answered them after they twisted his words, "Truly I say unto you, before Abraham was I am" he was still speaking of this in regards to God's vision of his coming before the foundation of the world and that he gave also to Abraham.
What that meant, was that he was before Abraham was in God's vision and plan and that Abraham only existed in God's vision and plan for his purpose in sending Jesus through his descendants and not the other way around.

"What that meant, was that he was before Abraham was in God's vision and plan and that Abraham only existed in God's vision and plan for his purpose in sending Jesus through his descendants and not the other way around." More Assumption.

In this he also answered their question "are you greater than our father Abraham and the prophets who have died"?
Romans 8:29 reveals this also, for all of the saints including Abraham were predestined to be conformed to his image and that he might be the firstborn among them as brethren and just like Paul said and therefore Jesus his human Son was first and his firstborn in God's vision, plan, purpose and foreknowledge.

Everything in red is assumption.

Therefore his being with those Jews in the first person present tense in his day (before Abraham was I am), was planned from God's vision before the foundation of the world and well before Abraham was predestined to be born in his day and that is what Jesus meant.
1 Peter 1:20, "Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was in these last days manifest for you".

Everything is red is assumption.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

"[Jesus]was still speaking of the vision of him that was with God in the beginning" is assumption.

"What that meant, was that he was before Abraham was in God's vision and plan and that Abraham only existed in God's vision and plan for his purpose in sending Jesus through his descendants and not the other way around." More Assumption.

Everything in red is assumption.

Everything is red is assumption.

Nope, but rather it is the difference between learning God's word by the flesh like you do and learning by the Spirit like we are instructed to do.

You are the one who is assuming that Jesus in John 8:58 was calling himself God and you are also foolishly basing this to some degree upon how the apostate reprobate Jews who heard him took it to mean.

Furthermore, I quoted scriptures that reveal that Jesus the human Son of God was the firstborn in God's vision and also through whom all others who would come into existence and then also become sons through the new birth and be conformed to his image and of which Abraham was included.

Are you going to argue that this is not what Paul is saying in Romans 8:29 OS?

For it is clear that he is speaking of Jesus as a human being, being all other sons will be conformed to his image in order that he might be the firstborn among many other human brethren.

Therefore, if all others were predestined to be conformed to his image, then that means that Jesus the human being was also before any of them in God's vision and plan as the firstborn and there is no way out of this either and then you also have 1 Peter 1:20 below.


1 Peter 1:20 "Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was in these last days manifested for you"


There is no way around the fact that when Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it and was glad" that he had to be speaking of a vision that Abraham received from God of him being there among them in the first person present tense and which vision was with "pros" God before the foundation of the world.

The Bible is a Spiritual book and not a secular text book that you can figure out with your carnal intellect and human reasoning like you are trying to do with it OS and as long as you continue to do it your way, the truth will be hidden from you and just like Jesus said in the passage below.

Matthew 11:25-26​

​

25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.




Notice first that word "hidden" for it is the word "kruptos" from where we get our word "cryptic" and it means something that is concealed until God reveals it.

Then, also notice that Jesus said that God reveals his truth and he reveals it to little children and which means the same thing as what Paul said in 1 Corinthians chapter 1-3, that God reveals them to the weak and foolish of this world in order to confound the wisdom (path of learning) of the wise of this world and which God calls foolishness. .

 

[GeneZ]

Yes but only as in God's vision or Logos, for Jesus never moved away from what he said, "your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it" and he was speaking about the vision of the coming of Jesus the human Messiah and Son.

What's that got to do with anything? The Son of God was not always "Incarnate." Abraham knew the Lord God (who later became Incarnate). Abraham was looking forward to the day that the Lord God of Israel would make Himself become as a man for all men to see. Jesus was speaking (in the Greek tense) that indicates timelessness "Always existing I Am."

You guys always want to drag this out with endless denials.

You are NOT going to get it.

Those who do, must accept that fact and leave you be.

If you are going to ever see it, God would have to grant you repentance (a change in thinking).

Its between you and Him. Not us. Why He shows some of us and not others is between you and my Lord.

He who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me;
and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.” John 14:21

Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.


grace and truth.....

 

[Yahweh will increase]

What's that got to do with anything? The Son of God was not always "Incarnate." Abraham knew the Lord God (who later became Incarnate). Abraham was looking forward to the day that the Lord God of Israel would make Himself become as a man for all men to see. Jesus was speaking (in the Greek tense) that indicates timelessness "Always existing I Am."

You guys always want to drag this out with endless denials.

You are NOT going to get it.

Those who do, must accept that fact and leave you be.

If you are going to ever see it, God would have to grant you repentance (a change in thinking).

Its between you and Him. Not us. Why He shows some of us and not others is between you and my Lord.

He who has my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me;
and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.” John 14:21

Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling.


grace and truth.....

First off, you idea that repentance and faith revolves around believing that Jesus is God and that God is a trinity is complete rubbish and totally false.

For no one comes to repentance and faith by having God reveal to them that Jesus is God and that he is a trinity, but rather that God sent his son to redeem sinners and save them.

Therefore salvation starts with our acknowledging our sins before God and that our sins put Jesus on that cross and that God sent Jesus so that if we would only believe in him through Jesus we would be saved.

That is the true gospel message and there is nothing in the gospel message that requires anyone to believe Jesus is God and that God is a trinity.



When Jesus said "before Abraham was I am" he was speaking of the vision that God had in his plan and foreknowledge before the foundation of the world of his sending Jesus' to the Jews.

The same vision that God also allowed Abraham to see of the coming of the day of Jesus and as Jesus revealed to them in verse 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it and was glad" and this was what Jesus was referring to in verse 58 when he said, "before Abraham was I am" and not that he was God or pre existed his birth as a man.

He was speaking to them in the Spirit and not by the terms of the flesh but because they didn't have the Holy Spirit and neither were led by the Holy Spirit they took it to mean what the flesh would understand it to mean instead and God wanted it this way also.

Look at Jesus' words in the passage below, for what he was saying in this, was that the Spirit has to make the truth alive to us because the flesh cannot and therefore the words he was speaking to them in that chapter were Spirit (Spiritual words) and Life.

John 6:63​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

For God wanted them to be confused by it also, for it was in his will that because they had shut themselves off from His truth completely, therefore he determined to allow them their delusions of believing that Jesus was calling himself God so that they would have their reason to have him crucified according to God's plan and purpose.

Acts 2:22-23​

​

New International Version​

​

​

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Acts 2:36​

​

New International Version​

​

​

36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

 

[GeneZ]

First off, you idea that repentance and faith revolves around believing that Jesus is God and that God is a trinity is complete rubbish and totally false.

I had no idea Jesus was God when I got saved.

I was brought up Jewish and had no idea other than Jesus was a beautiful man who loved God above all else, and wanted everyone to be able to love God the way way He did. So, He died on the Cross so we could be made able to love God like He does.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I had no idea Jesus was God when I got saved.

I was brought up Jewish and had no idea other than Jesus was a beautiful man who loved God above all else, and wanted everyone to be able to love God the way way He did. So, He died on the Cross so we could be made able to love God like He does.

That is good for it is only through what God reveals to the heart of men after they come to repentance that can cause faith in them and that is what Paul meant when he said in Romans 10:17, "now faith comes by hearing and hearing by the "rhema"="word" of God".

For the rhema of God isn't what we hear from men or from our own minds nor is it only what we read from the Bible but it is what God reveals from the Bible into our heart and he cannot reveal what he never truly stated in his word and that is why he cannot reveal that he is a trinity or that Jesus is Almighty God.

Therefore any faith that one acquires in believing those doctrines was never revealed by God but by the flesh and either their own or that of others who taught them those doctrines.

I was saved and born again in 1971 and I already had those doctrines drilled into my mind before I got saved but on the night I was saved God didn't give me those doctrines to save me by but rather that he had sent Jesus to die for me that I might be saved not by my own works but back his through Jesus Christ.

However, because I was already brainwashed in my thinking to believe God was a trinity and Jesus was God in the flesh being Catholic before salvation, I believed those doctrines in my mind until God renewed my mind and brought me out of those false doctrine but it was a battle because I didn't want to turn them loose.

 

[GeneZ]

Jesus
"Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing.... before Abraham was I am."
John 8:53-58

Again... Jesus had to make himself into the prototype Christian. To be the author and fisher of our faith. After all, we are men. He had to live and face temptations from Evil as we would to test the system of faith we are to walk in. He had to make himself be as a man.

So.. As a man? How could he ever glorify himself?

But, He also made it known, that the Soul of Jehovah (the soul who was being as Jesus the man) was eternally existing with God!

 

[GeneZ]

However, because I was already brainwashed in my thinking to believe God was a trinity and Jesus was God in the flesh being Catholic before salvation, I believed those doctrines in my mind until God renewed my mind and brought me out of those false doctrine but it was a battle because I didn't want to turn them loose.

Sounds like you are being reactionary to your old church, and in reaction rejected teachings that previously confounded you.

Yet? Do you reject that Jesus was born of a virgin? Why not, then?

 

[johnny guitar]

Ind

I believe that when Jesus said, "before Abraham was I am" in the first person present tense, he was still speaking of the vision of him that was with God in the beginning and that God gave to Abraham of the day of his coming.

Even though the Jews twisted his words to accuse him falsely and said, "you are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham"?

For they moved off on a rabbit trail with his words but Jesus never moved from what he stated, "Your Father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it and was glad".

For when he answered them after they twisted his words, "Truly I say unto you, before Abraham was I am" he was still speaking of this in regards to God's vision of his coming before the foundation of the world and that he gave also to Abraham.

What that meant, was that he was before Abraham was in God's vision and plan and that Abraham only existed in God's vision and plan for his purpose in sending Jesus through his descendants and not the other way around.

In this he also answered their question "are you greater than our father Abraham and the prophets who have died"?

Romans 8:29 reveals this also, for all of the saints including Abraham were predestined to be conformed to his image and that he might be the firstborn among them as brethren and just like Paul said and therefore Jesus his human Son was first and his firstborn in God's vision, plan, purpose and foreknowledge.

Therefore his being with those Jews in the first person present tense in his day (before Abraham was I am), was planned from God's vision before the foundation of the world and well before Abraham was predestined to be born in his day and that is what Jesus meant.


1 Peter 1:20, "Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was in these last days manifest for you".

Is

Yes but only as in God's vision or Logos, for Jesus never moved away from what he said, "your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it" and he was speaking about the vision of the coming of Jesus the human Messiah and Son.

This Divine vision or Divine Logos centered on Jesus and his coming was with "pros" God before the foundation of the would and through it, he also predestined all others who would become his sons through him to also be conformed to the image of including Abraham and as per Romans 8:29.

"For those whom he foreknew, them he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" and that included Abraham also.

1 Peter 1:20 "Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world but in these last days manifested for you".

Therefore if Abraham was also predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus as God's human Son and image and which Romans 8:29 very clearly reveals was the case, then the Human Son of God and Messiah Jesus Christ was the firstborn in God's vision and plan and predestination and that is what Jesus was speaking of when he said, "before Abraham was I am"

The fact is therefore, that Abraham was only in God's vision and plan following behind Jesus Christ who God had pre determined to have the preeminence as the firstborn over all creation and over all others who would be born again as his sons through him and then also be conformed to his image.

Is that why the Jews tried to kill Him on the spot????

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Ind

Is

Is that why the Jews tried to kill Him on the spot????

Jesus told you the reason why they wanted to kill him in the following and it was based upon a lie from the Devil about word of God and having nothing to do with truth of God's word or what Jesus himself said or did either.

John 8:44-45

King James Version

​

44 You are of your father the devil, and the lusts (wrong desires) of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Sounds like you are being reactionary to your old church, and in reaction rejected teachings that previously confounded you.

Yet? Do you reject that Jesus was born of a virgin? Why not, then?

I have no problem with Jesus being born of a virgin and very firmly believe that he was also, for it was a sign (see Isaiah 7:14), that through Jesus and what he would do on the cross, God would be with us who believe through him.

Also, although Jesus had to be related to Adam through Eve, it was necessary for God to replace the male seed of Adam with a new male seed sent from heaven into the womb of Mary.

For all who were born from Adam will follow Adam and commit sin and Jesus couldn't be the Messiah if he followed the typos of Adam and like all that are born from him will.

This is also why Paul called Jesus the second man and the last Adam, for he was sent to replace the first Adam and also to put an end to his typos towards sin through his death on the cross.

 

[johnny guitar]

You di

Jesus told you the reason why they wanted to kill him in the following and it was based upon a lie from the Devil about word of God and having nothing to do with truth of God's word or what Jesus himself said or did either.

John 8:44-45​

​

King James Version​

​

​

44 You are of your father the devil, and the lusts (wrong desires) of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

You did NOT answer the question as to WHY they wanted to kill Him on the spot when He said what He said in 8:58.

Nope, but rather it is the difference between learning God's word by the flesh like you do and learning by the Spirit like we are instructed to do.

You are the one who is assuming that Jesus in John 8:58 was calling himself God and you are also foolishly basing this to some degree upon how the apostate reprobate Jews who heard him took it to mean.

Furthermore, I quoted scriptures that reveal that Jesus the human Son of God was the firstborn in God's vision and also through whom all others who would come into existence and then also become sons through the new birth and be conformed to his image and of which Abraham was included.

Are you going to argue that this is not what Paul is saying in Romans 8:29 OS?

For it is clear that he is speaking of Jesus as a human being, being all other sons will be conformed to his image in order that he might be the firstborn among many other human brethren.

Therefore, if all others were predestined to be conformed to his image, then that means that Jesus the human being was also before any of them in God's vision and plan as the firstborn and there is no way out of this either and then you also have 1 Peter 1:20 below.


1 Peter 1:20 "Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world but was in these last days manifested for you"


There is no way around the fact that when Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it and was glad" that he had to be speaking of a vision that Abraham received from God of him being there among them in the first person present tense and which vision was with "pros" God before the foundation of the world.

The Bible is a Spiritual book and not a secular text book that you can figure out with your carnal intellect and human reasoning like you are trying to do with it OS and as long as you continue to do it your way, the truth will be hidden from you and just like Jesus said in the passage below.

Matthew 11:25-26​

​

25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.




Notice first that word "hidden" for it is the word "kruptos" from where we get our word "cryptic" and it means something that is concealed until God reveals it.

Then, also notice that Jesus said that God reveals his truth and he reveals it to little children and which means the same thing as what Paul said in 1 Corinthians chapter 1-3, that God reveals them to the weak and foolish of this world in order to confound the wisdom (path of learning) of the wise of this world and which God calls foolishness. .

The Son of God becoming a MAN was foreordained from the foundation of The world, NOT His existence.

 

[johnny guitar]

I have no problem with Jesus being born of a virgin and very firmly believe that he was also, for it was a sign (see Isaiah 7:14), that through Jesus and what he would do on the cross, God would be with us who believe through him.

Also, although Jesus had to be related to Adam through Eve, it was necessary for God to replace the male seed of Adam with a new male seed sent from heaven into the womb of Mary.

For all who were born from Adam will follow Adam and commit sin and Jesus couldn't be the Messiah if he followed the typos of Adam and like all that are born from him will.

This is also why Paul called Jesus the second man and the last Adam, for he was sent to replace the first Adam and also to put an end to his typos towards sin through his death on the cross.

And Jesus Christ IS God WITH us.

 

[johnny guitar]

Yes but only as in God's vision or Logos, for Jesus never moved away from what he said, "your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it" and he was speaking about the vision of the coming of Jesus the human Messiah and Son.

This Divine vision or Divine Logos centered on Jesus and his coming was with "pros" God before the foundation of the would and through it, he also predestined all others who would become his sons through him to also be conformed to the image of including Abraham and as per Romans 8:29.

"For those whom he foreknew, them he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" and that included Abraham also.

1 Peter 1:20 "Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world but in these last days manifested for you".

Therefore if Abraham was also predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus as God's human Son and image and which Romans 8:29 very clearly reveals was the case, then the Human Son of God and Messiah Jesus Christ was the firstborn in God's vision and plan and predestination and that is what Jesus was speaking of when he said, "before Abraham was I am"

The fact is therefore, that Abraham was only in God's vision and plan following behind Jesus Christ who God had pre determined to have the preeminence as the firstborn over all creation and over all others who would be born again as his sons through him and then also be conformed to his image.

God ALONE is the Firstborn(HEAD, RULER)of ALL creation.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

God ALONE is the Firstborn(HEAD, RULER)of ALL creation.

You best go and find someone who is on your level of Bible knowledge to debate with.

For I am not interesting in arguing with the nonsensical things that you come up with to debate about.


By the way John, go try and find even one passage of scripture where God is ever called the firstborn, for that is what I mean by your ridiculous arguments.