John 8:58 - Jesus VS. Trinitarians

GeneZ

Well-known member
You best go and find someone who is on your level of Bible knowledge to debate with.

For I am not interesting in arguing with the nonsensical things that you come up with to debate about.


By the way John, go try and find even one passage of scripture where God is ever called the firstborn, for that is what I mean by your ridiculous arguments.

Firstborn in that culture meant the head of the household second to the Father. The eldest son in a Jewish family had special standing before all.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
You best go and find someone who is on your level of Bible knowledge to debate with.

For I am not interesting in arguing with the nonsensical things that you come up with to debate about.


By the way John, go try and find even one passage of scripture where God is ever called the firstborn, for that is what I mean by your ridiculous arguments.
Col. 1:15-16. Yep, The Firstborn is The Creator of ALL things.
 

Anthony

Member
Jesus
"Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing.... before Abraham was I am."
John 8:53-58

When the Jews asked Jesus just WHO he claimed to be, he said that if he glorified himself it means NOTHING.

Trinitarians
Before Abraham was I am." John 8:53-58

But Trinitarians say Jesus glorified himself as God Almighty telling us WHO he was and it means EVERYTHING.

So Trinitarians reject what Jesus said and claim that he went right ahead and did what he said he does not do.

So WHO do you believe? Jesus? Or Trinitarians?
You are totally misinformed by a biased teaching you have received. You need not be a Trinitarian or Oneness to believe exactly what He meant ' Before Abraham, I AM'.

He is the same YHWH who spoke and appeared in visible form in the OT.

David FORESAW YHWH (in prophetic sense):

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

YHWH presented Himself in duality of powers in the OT - speaking as The Father of Israel and as well as on behalf of The Father being sent by Him. This has really sent confusion in Christendom not properly understanding that God is neither a singular Person nor multiple Persons.

YHWH is transcendent as well as immanent in duality of powers.

John 5:27 says Jews/Israel had never seen Father's shape nor heard His voice.

The One Who spoke and was seen by OT Prophets is the same YHWH came in flesh as The Son. The same YHWH spoke to Israel in duality of powers because it was impossible for transcendent YHWH to be seen, heard or approached by any creature.

Another important doctrine that's being missed in Christendom is that the firstborn son of God/YHWH is Israel corporately - Exod 4:22-23.

The problem with Israel as an whole is that they were fleshly lacking the ability to be called spiritual. The Torah is spiritual thought enforced by fleshly ordinances which Israel as an whole could not meet YHWH's standards. That's why YHWH Himself came in flesh as The Son, the only Spiritual Seed of The Father - transcendent God whom no one has seen nor can see. Therefore, there is no contradictions in scriptures to say that The Father became The Son.

The Father and The Son are purely covenant relationship between YHWH and Israel. Israel is transitioned from flesh to spirit by The Only Spiritual Son of God from old covenant to the new covenant sealed by His blood. The Son came as The true Israel of God to mediate for Israel after the flesh - Exod 4:22-23; Hos 11:1; Mat 2:15; Rom 8:29. Connect the dots....

That's why John is warning those Jews who deny Jesus Christ having come in flesh. The deniers are called anti-Christs because under physical elements of Torah they could not please God. That's why Spiritual Seed had to come in their own likeness of sinful flesh and fulfill obedience for them and present Himself as atonement to God and thereby transition them through His resurrection from flesh to spirit. Otherwise, they would continue to be under condemnation.

Gal 4:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Col. 1:15-16. Yep, The Firstborn is The Creator of ALL things.


What good is only showing Col 1:15-16? What does that mean to someone with spiritual apathy?

Those are just letters and numbers to those with no energy to pursue.

Here! Like this.

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible
and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things
have been created through him and for him."
Colossians 1:15-16

grace and truth.....
 

johnny guitar

Active member
What good is only showing Col 1:15-16? What does that mean to someone with spiritual apathy?

Those are just letters and numbers to those with no energy to pursue.

Here! Like this.

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible
and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things
have been created through him and for him."
Colossians 1:15-16

grace and truth.....
BY Him were all things created.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
BY Him were all things created.
Sorry... When the verse is not presented to a scoffer the other may think you are just interpreting something your own way, thus leaving him with excuse. I gave the passage for good reason. Not that he would believe. That's his choice. But to leave him to be without excuse when he stands before the Lord.

Glorifying Christ does not mean that our witness will get someone saved. They may reject even with a perfect witness. Glorifying Christ leaves the other to be "without excuse." Jesus was the Supreme witness and many refused to believe being left without excuse. He glorified the Father.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
Sorry... When the verse is not presented to a scoffer the other may think you are just interpreting something your own way, thus leaving him with excuse. I gave the passage for good reason. Not that he would believe. That's his choice. But to leave him to be without excuse when he stands before the Lord.

Glorifying Christ does not mean that our witness will get someone saved. They may reject even with a perfect witness. Glorifying Christ leaves the other to be "without excuse." Jesus was the Supreme witness and many refused to believe being left without excuse. He glorified the Father.
My Bible says BY Him.
Case closed.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
My Bible says BY Him.
Case closed.
Curious... Are you King James Only?

It also says all things were created IN Him.


The Greek says "through." Not, "by."




Young's Literal Translation

Who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens,
and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether
thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities;
all things through him, and for him, have been created,"



Jesus placed His custom made order to his exact specifications... Everything was created as he sovereignly desired everything to be created. For he has a Soul as his second nature in union with Deity. Therefore, all things were created in a manner as to enable all souls to be able to relate to all things created! We are souls. His second nature is Soul. That is why all things created had to be through Him. So all souls would find the creation very natural to our perceptions.

All the Trinity produced the final product of Creation. Look at Genesis 1:1! That is because all of the Trinity had a hand in creation. You do realize? It says Elohim created the heavens and earth. Elohim is a plurality.

All that has been created was as Jesus designed it and determined it to be. All things created went through Him, as in all commands for an army are made through the General. He was in charge of all things created. The Trinity was His army at His command for creating. All the Trinity partook of in creation was done solely through the Son. Not the Father. Not the Holy Spirit. Just like the Lord had Adam name all the animals?
The Father set forth His Son, to think of, and design, all things to be created. Created by the Godhead. Not one thing got created that was not in and from the Mind of Christ at the creation of all things.
 

Anthony

Member
Firstborn in that culture meant the head of the household second to the Father. The eldest son in a Jewish family had special standing before all.
Yes, true. But spiritually firstborns are the ultimate who are conformed to Christ - firstborn of all creation.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Yes, true. But spiritually firstborns are the ultimate who are conformed to Christ - firstborn of all creation.
Can you develop that? That only sounds like a notion you choose to accept.

Chapter and verse, please.
 

Anthony

Member
Can you develop that? That only sounds like a notion you choose to accept.

Chapter and verse, please.
Yes definitely! Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - they weren't literal firstborn sons but firstborns spiritually in Christ:

Israel corporately is the firstborn son of YHWH: Exod 4:22-23.

Messiah came to represent and Mediate for Israel as the firstborn Son - His 11:1; Mat 2:15; Rom 8:29.

The literal pointed to the spiritual. The Levite Priests stood in place of literal firstborns in Israel.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
Yes definitely! Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - they weren't literal firstborn sons but firstborns spiritually in Christ:

Israel corporately is the firstborn son of YHWH: Exod 4:22-23.

Messiah came to represent and Mediate for Israel as the firstborn Son - His 11:1; Mat 2:15; Rom 8:29.

The literal pointed to the spiritual. The Levite Priests stood in place of literal firstborns in Israel.
Interesting. Glad I asked for you to develop that.

Out from the loins of Israel was to come the Messiah, His Firstborn Son. Until he was born all those in the line leading to Christ's birth were viewed by God as being His Son in them. But, only He, Jesus, is the actual Son.

For Pharaoh to not release Israel, was to God to be not releasing His Son, who was in them awaiting to be revealed in the fullness of time.

Not dogmatic about that. Just something I am working out at the moment.. Thanks.

grace and peace
 

johnny guitar

Active member
Curious... Are you King James Only?

It also says all things were created IN Him.


The Greek says "through." Not, "by."




Young's Literal Translation

Who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens,
and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether
thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities;
all things through him, and for him, have been created,"



Jesus placed His custom made order to his exact specifications... Everything was created as he sovereignly desired everything to be created. For he has a Soul as his second nature in union with Deity. Therefore, all things were created in a manner as to enable all souls to be able to relate to all things created! We are souls. His second nature is Soul. That is why all things created had to be through Him. So all souls would find the creation very natural to our perceptions.

All the Trinity produced the final product of Creation. Look at Genesis 1:1! That is because all of the Trinity had a hand in creation. You do realize? It says Elohim created the heavens and earth. Elohim is a plurality.

All that has been created was as Jesus designed it and determined it to be. All things created went through Him, as in all commands for an army are made through the General. He was in charge of all things created. The Trinity was His army at His command for creating. All the Trinity partook of in creation was done solely through the Son. Not the Father. Not the Holy Spirit. Just like the Lord had Adam name all the animals?
The Father set forth His Son, to think of, and design, all things to be created. Created by the Godhead. Not one thing got created that was not in and from the Mind of Christ at the creation of all things.
I use the KJV, but am NOT an advocate of the ONLY crowd.
ALL things were created by Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Too much speculation in your post.
That is good for it is only through what God reveals to the heart of men after they come to repentance that can cause faith in them and that is what Paul meant when he said in Romans 10:17, "now faith comes by hearing and hearing by the "rhema"="word" of God".

For the rhema of God isn't what we hear from men or from our own minds nor is it only what we read from the Bible but it is what God reveals from the Bible into our heart and he cannot reveal what he never truly stated in his word and that is why he cannot reveal that he is a trinity or that Jesus is Almighty God.

Therefore any faith that one acquires in believing those doctrines was never revealed by God but by the flesh and either their own or that of others who taught them those doctrines.

I was saved and born again in 1971 and I already had those doctrines drilled into my mind before I got saved but on the night I was saved God didn't give me those doctrines to save me by but rather that he had sent Jesus to die for me that I might be saved not by my own works but back his through Jesus Christ.

However, because I was already brainwashed in my thinking to believe God was a trinity and Jesus was God in the flesh being Catholic before salvation, I believed those doctrines in my mind until God renewed my mind and brought me out of those false doctrine but it was a battle because I didn't want to turn them loose.
Anyone who denies the deity of Christ has NEVER been saved or born again.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
I use the KJV, but am NOT an advocate of the ONLY crowd.
ALL things were created by Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Too much speculation in your post.


Only the KJV translated it "by Him." All the others I have read show "through Him." My pastor taught it straight from the Greek. If interested you can order his teachings on Colossians free of charge. Just ask if you wish. Beautiful depth when it is taught from the Greek. And, he does begin by reading from the KJV.

When does insight become another man's speculation? When the person shown the insight yet lacks the needed knowledge to be able to put it all together. I could explain everything I said if you do not close your mind.

To receive an insight is what comes from having suffered while gaining enough knowledge of sound doctrine for the Holy Spirit to put a gift under His Christmas tree for you. For receiving an insight is a lovely gift from the Lord.


"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound
more and more
in knowledge and depth of insight."

Philippians 1:9​


Anyone who denies the deity of Christ has NEVER been saved or born again.

That is true for anyone who keeps denying after being shown the pertinent Scripture. Maybe needing to be shown several times.

I had no idea of the Deity of Christ when I believed. It took me ten years to find out.

If someone had just up and told me that Jesus is God? Not sure if I would have thought he had all his marbles. It has got to be shown via the Scriptures as proof.

When my sister first told me that Jesus is God? I thought maybe she was believing a fantasy.

All I needed happened when she showed me John 1:1 + John 1:14.

I read it. Then I was instantly sold. Until I was shown? I had no idea it could be so. Yet, I got powerfully saved ten years before.

Before all that? If you had simply asked me if I thought Jesus is God? I would have said "no." And, you would have thought I was not saved.


grace and peace.....
 

johnny guitar

Active member
Only the KJV translated it "by Him." All the others I have read show "through Him." My pastor taught it straight from the Greek. If interested you can order his teachings on Colossians free of charge. Just ask if you wish. Beautiful depth when it is taught from the Greek. And, he does begin by reading from the KJV.

When does insight become another man's speculation? When the person shown the insight yet lacks the needed knowledge to be able to put it all together. I could explain everything I said if you do not close your mind.

To receive an insight is what comes from having suffered while gaining enough knowledge of sound doctrine for the Holy Spirit to put a gift under His Christmas tree for you. For receiving an insight is a lovely gift from the Lord.


"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound
more and more
in knowledge and depth of insight."

Philippians 1:9​




That is true for anyone who keeps denying after being shown the pertinent Scripture. Maybe needing to be shown several times.

I had no idea of the Deity of Christ when I believed. It took me ten years to find out.

If someone had just up and told me that Jesus is God? Not sure if I would have thought he had all his marbles. It has got to be shown via the Scriptures as proof.

When my sister first told me that Jesus is God? I thought maybe she was believing a fantasy.

All I needed happened when she showed me John 1:1 + John 1:14.

I read it. Then I was instantly sold. Until I was shown? I had no idea it could be so. Yet, I got powerfully saved ten years before.

Before all that? If you had simply asked me if I thought Jesus is God? I would have said "no." And, you would have thought I was not saved.


grace and peace.....
A agree that anyone may come to understand the deity of Christ AFTER receiving Him as Lord and Savior, BUT after salvation NO true believer would ever deny His deity. I think there is a huge difference between ACCEPTING the Deity of Christ and DENYING it. And I do NOT make distinctions between BY and THROUGH.
 

johnny guitar

Active member
You best go and find someone who is on your level of Bible knowledge to debate with.

For I am not interesting in arguing with the nonsensical things that you come up with to debate about.


By the way John, go try and find even one passage of scripture where God is ever called the firstborn, for that is what I mean by your ridiculous arguments.
God ALONE is the HEAD, RULER of all creation.
 

GeneZ

Well-known member
By the way John, go try and find even one passage of scripture where God is ever called the firstborn, for that is what I mean by your ridiculous arguments.


Go try and find even one passage of Scripture where God is ever called a "man."

Then you might be onto something.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
You are totally misinformed by a biased teaching you have received. You need not be a Trinitarian or Oneness to believe exactly what He meant ' Before Abraham, I AM'.

He is the same YHWH who spoke and appeared in visible form in the OT.

David FORESAW YHWH (in prophetic sense):

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

YHWH presented Himself in duality of powers in the OT - speaking as The Father of Israel and as well as on behalf of The Father being sent by Him. This has really sent confusion in Christendom not properly understanding that God is neither a singular Person nor multiple Persons.

YHWH is transcendent as well as immanent in duality of powers.

John 5:27 says Jews/Israel had never seen Father's shape nor heard His voice.

The One Who spoke and was seen by OT Prophets is the same YHWH came in flesh as The Son. The same YHWH spoke to Israel in duality of powers because it was impossible for transcendent YHWH to be seen, heard or approached by any creature.

Another important doctrine that's being missed in Christendom is that the firstborn son of God/YHWH is Israel corporately - Exod 4:22-23.

The problem with Israel as an whole is that they were fleshly lacking the ability to be called spiritual. The Torah is spiritual thought enforced by fleshly ordinances which Israel as an whole could not meet YHWH's standards. That's why YHWH Himself came in flesh as The Son, the only Spiritual Seed of The Father - transcendent God whom no one has seen nor can see. Therefore, there is no contradictions in scriptures to say that The Father became The Son.

The Father and The Son are purely covenant relationship between YHWH and Israel. Israel is transitioned from flesh to spirit by The Only Spiritual Son of God from old covenant to the new covenant sealed by His blood. The Son came as The true Israel of God to mediate for Israel after the flesh - Exod 4:22-23; Hos 11:1; Mat 2:15; Rom 8:29. Connect the dots....

That's why John is warning those Jews who deny Jesus Christ having come in flesh. The deniers are called anti-Christs because under physical elements of Torah they could not please God. That's why Spiritual Seed had to come in their own likeness of sinful flesh and fulfill obedience for them and present Himself as atonement to God and thereby transition them through His resurrection from flesh to spirit. Otherwise, they would continue to be under condemnation.

Gal 4:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

So then you don't believe Jesus when he said he does not glorify himself since it means nothing.
 
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