John the Baptist and Jesus

5wize

Well-known member
I will put forth that this post is a quest for information from Christians on their thinking on this matter, not some gotcha post. I'm sure there are doctrinal answers to this that I would like to become aware of.

It puzzled me as to why it is claimed that only through Christ could one be reconciled to God and the coming kingdom when John the Baptist was baptizing for the remission of sins for this atonement already. When John baptized, something supernatural had to happen to forgive the person's sin (judicial atonement) and then have them remain a full participant in the coming kingdom (participatory atonement). It being a supernatural event, "faith" was already a component. It seems that there was no functional add to that supernatural process of atonement by the death of Jesus. Jews already promoted gentile conversion. The only thing in my mind that would be a differentiator to exalt Jesus at that time would be an expectation of all the earthy things that a Jewish messiah was to represent (a physical Jewish king, a conquering warrior of Maccabean mold, etc.). That not having happened just means that the mode of salvation changed is all. Jesus does not seem to introduce the only way to God. Are we we witnessing this *problem* for Christianity brewing by the time the gospel of John was written as to de-emphasize John the Baptist’s importance as it competed with the new form of salvation. Thoughts?
 
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docphin5

Well-known member
I will put forth that this post is a quest for information from Christians on their thinking on this matter, not some gotcha post. I'm sure there are doctrinal answers to this that I would like to become aware of.

It puzzled me as to why it is claimed that only through Christ could one be reconciled to God and the coming kingdom when John the Baptist was baptizing for the remission of sins for this atonement already.
Good observation: People were finding forgiveness through the message of "John the Baptist" before the appearance of "jesus". It begs the question, what is different about the death of Jesus?

I used to think that people before Jesus' death were forgiven looking forward to the Roman cross and people after Jesus' death were forgiven looking backward to the Roman cross. It presumes God seeing all time at once and attributing atonement for everyone at the single moment of Jesus' death.

I used to think like that. It was one way of rationalizing inconsistencies in scripture. It will be interesting to hear what other explanations people have come up with. Again, I used to think like that.

Now, I have realized that mythical stories are a break from history. One cannot be the other. Either it is history or it is mythical stories and the Gospels are clearly mythical from the very beginning, to include the virgin birth, all the way to the point he flies through the air like superman in his resurrected flesh.
When John baptized, something supernatural had to happen to forgive the person's sin (judicial atonement) and then have them remain a full participant in the coming kingdom (participatory atonement). It being a supernatural event, "faith" was already a component. It seems that there was no functional add to that supernatural process of atonement by the death of Jesus. Jews already promoted gentile conversion.

The only thing in my mind that would be a differentiator to exalt Jesus at that time would be an expectation of all the earthy things that a Jewish messiah was to represent (a physical Jewish king, a conquering warrior of Maccabean mold, etc.).
Definitely some Jews were erroneously expecting a national Messiah to deliver nation Israel from the Romans. An argument could be made that Peter, James, and John were expecting just that given what is written in the Gospel stories.
That not having happened just means that the mode of salvation changed is all.
It is a theory but not one I have ever read anywhere, maybe because there is very little to no evidence for it.
Jesus does not seem to introduce the only way to God. Are we we witnessing this *problem* for Christianity brewing by the time the gospel of John was written as to de-emphasize John the Baptist’s importance as it competed with the new form of salvation. Thoughts?
Definitely, there was a problem at the point of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple (70 CE) because at that point it had to dawn on everyone that no national Messiah was coming. Jewish Christians expecting a national Messiah had to feel the wind sucked out of them.

But not for Paul and the Gentile Christians. He had been telling everyone for twenty years that Judaism was a heathen religion: Jewish Temple as a center of worship, animal sacrifices, Temple rituals, prescribed feasts, food purity rituals, circumcision,--all which could be found in the Egyptian religion and other religions. Egyptians practiced circumcision, they did not eat pork, they had a temple in Thebes, they had religious rituals, they even had a God of gods, namely, Amun-Ra, the hidden one who manifested all the gods.

The point is that Paul had perceived early on that the Messiah (Holy Spirit named Jesus) indwells humans as the inner Adam which is essentially a moral consciousness being formed from the beginning of creation. The outer Adam is the mortal flesh that is dying due to a sin that happened at the beginning. The outer Adam is the crucified Christ and the inner Adam is the moral consciousness. Flesh is suffering and dying due to sin whereas the soul is being saved due to the activity of a moral consciousness being formed by the Holy Spirit (see Genesis).

Here is where actual history takes place.

The Gospels were written AFTER the Temple was destroyed to canonize Paul as the coming Messiah or IOW, to canonize the inner Jesus of Paul BECAUSE he was the only Jewish rabbi whose teachings remained standing after 70 C.E. Everyone else expecting a national Messiah lost all credibility. Paul's message was seen as victorious because Paul's inner Messiah went on to be a "light to the Gentiles" as prophesied by Isaiah. Paul's crucified Christ was mortal flesh (see my OP, Adam crucified on a tree).

The Gospels also canonized the Teacher of Righteousness (100 B.C.) as the "John the Baptist" thereby connecting Paul as the successor to the TOR. For the Essenes believed in a Hebdomad (7) of Messiahs or prophets upon earth, --not one earthly Messiah. The TOR was arguably considered the fifth Messiah. Presuming Paul was the sixth Messiah then there is "one to come", a seventh.

Anyway, after the temple was destroyed and Jewish Christians began understanding Paul's message they perceived that he was the Messiah who succeeded the TOR. They wrote the Gospels which glorified Paul and his inner Jesus in a mythical way turning him into a symbol. Everything about Paul's life was written allegorically in order to personify the inner Jesus, the one whom Paul wrote about in his epistles. Therefore, the dying Christ of the first century is Paul's mortal flesh. For example, after all his ministry to the Gentile lands (corresponding to Jesus ministering in Galilee for three years) Paul returned to Jerusalem as their Christ (Jesus enters Jerusalem) to make his case, but Paul was rejected by the Jews (Jesus was rejected by the Jews) and sent to Rome to die under Nero (Jesus was condemned to die by Pilate) around 64 C.E.

In answer to your question about atonement. Atonement has always been and forever will be the rise of a moral consciousness and moral life in an intelligent soul formed by the Holy Spirit and the dying christ has always been and always will be mortal flesh (matter) as long the living have flesh, hence, the need for a "new heaven and earth".
 
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Algernon

Active member
I will put forth that this post is a quest for information from Christians on their thinking on this matter, not some gotcha post. I'm sure there are doctrinal answers to this that I would like to become aware of.

It puzzled me as to why it is claimed that only through Christ could one be reconciled to God and the coming kingdom when John the Baptist was baptizing for the remission of sins for this atonement already. When John baptized, something supernatural had to happen to forgive the person's sin (judicial atonement) and then have them remain a full participant in the coming kingdom (participatory atonement). It being a supernatural event, "faith" was already a component. It seems that there was no functional add to that supernatural process of atonement by the death of Jesus. Jews already promoted gentile conversion. The only thing in my mind that would be a differentiator to exalt Jesus at that time would be an expectation of all the earthy things that a Jewish messiah was to represent (a physical Jewish king, a conquering warrior of Maccabean mold, etc.). That not having happened just means that the mode of salvation changed is all. Jesus does not seem to introduce the only way to God. Are we we witnessing this *problem* for Christianity brewing by the time the gospel of John was written as to de-emphasize John the Baptist’s importance as it competed with the new form of salvation. Thoughts?
Well before John the Baptist there was this:

Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

While Jesus preached His gospel, He echoed the above and taught salvation through righteousness. As did John the Baptist before Him.

Matthew 21
32“For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

The vast majority of Christians today believe neither John nor Jesus in the way of righteousness.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Well before John the Baptist there was this:

Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

While Jesus preached His gospel, He echoed the above and taught salvation through righteousness. As did John the Baptist before Him.

Matthew 21
32“For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

The vast majority of Christians today believe neither John nor Jesus in the way of righteousness.
Yes. According to what you outline above, it seems that all the pre-requisites of salvation were always available. What then was the purpose of Calvary in your estimation given that Jews allowed gentiles to participate in this form of righteousness redemption without the sacrifice of Jesus?
 
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Algernon

Active member
Yes. According to what you outline above, it seems that all the pre-requisites of salvation were always available. What then was the purpose of Calvary in your estimation given that Jews allowed gentiles to participate in this form of righteousness redemption without the sacrifice of Jesus?
Over the years I've often been asked the question, "If an individual can make themselves righteous, then why did Jesus have to die on the cross?". The answer is that He didn't. It's the wrong question. The question they should ask themselves is, "Why have I so readily bought into the concept of substitutionary atonement?". Ultimately it's a way to avoid responsibility. Plus it makes them feel good to believe that "Jesus died on the cross for MY sins" and to believe, for all intents and purposes, that they will receive forgiveness for their transgressions against others. All they need do is confess their sins. And if God forgives them, who are they to not forgive themselves? What's more, for those who buy into the concept of the "total depravity of man", ultimately it's not their fault. It's Adam's and Eve's fault. Contrast this with salvation through righteous where they need to take responsibility.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I will put forth that this post is a quest for information from Christians on their thinking on this matter, not some gotcha post. I'm sure there are doctrinal answers to this that I would like to become aware of.

It puzzled me as to why it is claimed that only through Christ could one be reconciled to God and the coming kingdom when John the Baptist was baptizing for the remission of sins for this atonement already. When John baptized, something supernatural had to happen to forgive the person's sin (judicial atonement) and then have them remain a full participant in the coming kingdom (participatory atonement). It being a supernatural event, "faith" was already a component. It seems that there was no functional add to that supernatural process of atonement by the death of Jesus. Jews already promoted gentile conversion. The only thing in my mind that would be a differentiator to exalt Jesus at that time would be an expectation of all the earthy things that a Jewish messiah was to represent (a physical Jewish king, a conquering warrior of Maccabean mold, etc.). That not having happened just means that the mode of salvation changed is all. Jesus does not seem to introduce the only way to God. Are we we witnessing this *problem* for Christianity brewing by the time the gospel of John was written as to de-emphasize John the Baptist’s importance as it competed with the new form of salvation. Thoughts?
In Malachi, YHVH says that he will send the prophet Elijah before the great and notable day of YHVH.

Mal 4:4-6 WEB 4 “Remember the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded to him in Horeb for all Israel, even statutes and ordinances. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Yahweh comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

As noted by his followers who were talking to Jesus,

Mat 17:10-13 WEB 10 His disciples asked him, saying, “Then why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus answered them, “Elijah indeed comes first, and will restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Elijah has come already, and they didn’t recognize him, but did to him whatever they wanted to. Even so the Son of Man will also suffer by them.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptizer.

In Jewish homes today, for the passover/pesach dinner, they leave an empty seat for Elijah.

John's baptism was a recognition of the need for repentance. As YHVH, through Malachi says....

To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children.

John himself noted to his followers, when pointing out Jesus to them: behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John is saying that Jesus is YHVH's Passover Lamb.

Jesus' death paid the price for all sin, except for the sin of unbelief.

As noted by Algernon...

Ezekiel 18's message is a message of repentance towards YHVH.

That repentance doesn't cleanse sin. It still depends entirely on the final sacrifice for sin.... Jesus.

I've heard it described in the past as follows...

In the old testament/ before the resurrection of Jesus, those who believed YHVH looked forward to his providing himself as the lamb. And we who believe in Jesus, after the resurrection, look backwards to his resurrection.
 

Algernon

Active member
As noted by Algernon...

Ezekiel 18's message is a message of repentance towards YHVH.
In Ezekiel 18 God clearly states that "repentance" requires the unrighteous to cease to sin. In short, to make themselves righteous.

Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

In the gospel preached by Jesus, Jesus echoes, illustrates and refers to concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18.

For example:
1) In Ezekiel 18 God says, " I will judge each of you according to your own ways".
In Matthew 16 Jesus says, "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. "

2) In Ezekiel 18, God says, " Repent and live"
In Luke 13, Jesus says, "unless you repent, you too will all perish"

3) In Ezekiel 18 God says:
"Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?..Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?".
In Luke 15:11-31 Jesus illustrates this in The Parable of the Lost Son.
In Luke 15:3-7 Jesus illustrates this in part in The Parable of the Lost Sheep
In Luke 15:8-10 Jesus illustrates this in part in The Parable of the Lost Coin
In Matthew 20:1-15 Jesus illustrates this in part in The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

4) In Ezekiel 18 God says that those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live" and. those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".
In John 8 Jesus says:
"34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
31...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. "
35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

>>>Clearly concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18 are integral to the gospel preached by Jesus.

That repentance doesn't cleanse sin. It still depends entirely on the final sacrifice for sin.... Jesus.

Actually making oneself righteous, that is ceasing to sin, does cleanse sin according to God.

Isaiah 1
16“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
17Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless;
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
18...“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.


This is echoed by the gospel preached by Jesus. The unrighteous who abide in the gospel preached by Jesus will be made free from committing sin. They will be made righteous. They will be made clean.
John 8
"34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
31...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.
John 15
7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you.
8“By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments, and abide in His love.
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

.>>> Unfortunately many choose not to believe the gospel preached by Jesus. Many choose not to abide in Jesus' word. Many choose to not believe Jesus. Instead they choose to believe in the "gospel" put forth by Paul and followers of Paul.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Over the years I've often been asked the question, "If an individual can make themselves righteous, then why did Jesus have to die on the cross?". The answer is that He didn't. It's the wrong question. The question they should ask themselves is, "Why have I so readily bought into the concept of substitutionary atonement?". Ultimately it's a way to avoid responsibility. Plus it makes them feel good to believe that "Jesus died on the cross for MY sins" and to believe, for all intents and purposes, that they will receive forgiveness for their transgressions against others. All they need do is confess their sins. And if God forgives them, who are they to not forgive themselves? What's more, for those who buy into the concept of the "total depravity of man", ultimately it's not their fault. It's Adam's and Eve's fault. Contrast this with salvation through righteous where they need to take responsibility.
I think many Christians bought into substitutionary atonement because that is what is sold by the church - Paul's epistle view. Every apologetic is pre-crafted to start with Jesus and end with Jesus. Many don't peek behind that curtain, no time, no curiosity, not their expertise, no interest.

In what way do you mean Jesus didn't die on the cross? Physically, spiritually, metaphorically or still not the right question?
 

5wize

Well-known member
In Malachi, YHVH says that he will send the prophet Elijah before the great and notable day of YHVH.

Mal 4:4-6 WEB 4 “Remember the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded to him in Horeb for all Israel, even statutes and ordinances. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Yahweh comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

As noted by his followers who were talking to Jesus,

Mat 17:10-13 WEB 10 His disciples asked him, saying, “Then why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus answered them, “Elijah indeed comes first, and will restore all things; 12 but I tell you that Elijah has come already, and they didn’t recognize him, but did to him whatever they wanted to. Even so the Son of Man will also suffer by them.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the Baptizer.

In Jewish homes today, for the passover/pesach dinner, they leave an empty seat for Elijah.

John's baptism was a recognition of the need for repentance. As YHVH, through Malachi says....

To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children.

John himself noted to his followers, when pointing out Jesus to them: behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John is saying that Jesus is YHVH's Passover Lamb.

Jesus' death paid the price for all sin, except for the sin of unbelief.

As noted by Algernon...

Ezekiel 18's message is a message of repentance towards YHVH.

That repentance doesn't cleanse sin. It still depends entirely on the final sacrifice for sin.... Jesus.

I've heard it described in the past as follows...

In the old testament/ before the resurrection of Jesus, those who believed YHVH looked forward to his providing himself as the lamb. And we who believe in Jesus, after the resurrection, look backwards to his resurrection.
O.K. So you state the difference here is that the repentance of JtB's ritual does not cleanse sin.

But that's not backed scripturally. The scripture clearly states in Mark 1: 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

The remission of sins is not only achieved in this way, but others as well as noted in Matthew 9:4-7 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise and walk'?

This clearly indicated that Jesus was chastising the temple priests who were in the business of ritualizing the forgiveness of sin.

Can you scripturally or doctrinally show me where, as you say above: "it still depends entirely on the final sacrifice for sin.... Jesus." for sin to be forgiven? What part of sin needed this final sacrifice - this *cleanup batter*, so to speak? Without a clear doctrine it seems that Christianity just shoplifted salvation from Judaism onto Christ for no apparent reason other than some mistake about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah - the liberator of Israel.
 
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5wize

Well-known member
In Ezekiel 18 God clearly states that "repentance" requires the unrighteous to cease to sin. In short, to make themselves righteous.

Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

In the gospel preached by Jesus, Jesus echoes, illustrates and refers to concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18.

For example:
1) In Ezekiel 18 God says, " I will judge each of you according to your own ways".
In Matthew 16 Jesus says, "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. "

2) In Ezekiel 18, God says, " Repent and live"
In Luke 13, Jesus says, "unless you repent, you too will all perish"

3) In Ezekiel 18 God says:
"Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?..Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?".
In Luke 15:11-31 Jesus illustrates this in The Parable of the Lost Son.
In Luke 15:3-7 Jesus illustrates this in part in The Parable of the Lost Sheep
In Luke 15:8-10 Jesus illustrates this in part in The Parable of the Lost Coin
In Matthew 20:1-15 Jesus illustrates this in part in The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

4) In Ezekiel 18 God says that those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live" and. those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".
In John 8 Jesus says:
"34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
31...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. "
35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

>>>Clearly concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18 are integral to the gospel preached by Jesus.



Actually making oneself righteous, that is ceasing to sin, does cleanse sin according to God.

Isaiah 1
16“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
17Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless;
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
18...“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.


This is echoed by the gospel preached by Jesus. The unrighteous who abide in the gospel preached by Jesus will be made free from committing sin. They will be made righteous. They will be made clean.
John 8
"34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
31...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.
John 15
7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you.
8“By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments, and abide in His love.
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

.>>> Unfortunately many choose not to believe the gospel preached by Jesus. Many choose not to abide in Jesus' word. Many choose to not believe Jesus. Instead they choose to believe in the "gospel" put forth by Paul and followers of Paul.
@SteveB Bingo! That right there is pretty comprehensive and scriptural. So I am still missing the scriptural requirement to the concept of some "final" substitutional sacrifice for the remission of sins and the inheritance of the kingdom.
 

Algernon

Active member
In what way do you mean Jesus didn't die on the cross? Physically, spiritually, metaphorically or still not the right question?
I didn't say that Jesus didn't die on the cross.

You asked, "What then was the purpose of Calvary..."
I have often been asked, "If an individual can make themselves righteous, then why did Jesus have to die on the cross?".

Purpose! Have! What I was saying is that Jesus did not have to die on the cross. For Christians who have bought into substitutionary there must be a purpose; "if not substitutionary atonement, then what..." is the subtext beneath the question.

I think many Christians bought into substitutionary atonement because that is what is sold by the church - Paul's epistle view. Every apologetic is pre-crafted to start with Jesus and end with Jesus. Many don't peek behind that curtain, no time, no curiosity, not their expertise, no interest.
Even when placed before them, they have no interest. They not only don't have an interest, they have an aversion if not a hatred for the gospel preached by Jesus.
 

5wize

Well-known member
I didn't say that Jesus didn't die on the cross.

You asked, "What then was the purpose of Calvary..."
I have often been asked, "If an individual can make themselves righteous, then why did Jesus have to die on the cross?".

Purpose! Have! What I was saying is that Jesus did not have to die on the cross. For Christians who have bought into substitutionary there must be a purpose; "if not substitutionary atonement, then what..." is the subtext beneath the question.


Even when placed before them, they have no interest. They not only don't have an interest, they have an aversion if not a hatred for the gospel preached by Jesus.
I get it. The critical word was 'have' not 'died'. Totally agree. Christianity had to offer something new, but it really wasn't at all once looked at in context.
 

Algernon

Active member
@SteveB Bingo! That right there is pretty comprehensive and scriptural. So I am still missing the scriptural requirement to the concept of some "final" substitutional sacrifice for the remission of sins and the inheritance of the kingdom.
Many call themselves "followers of Jesus", but they don't listen to the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel, much less, understand, believe, follow, keep and abide in those words. Most do not even know the half of what Jesus said. It's relatively unimportant to the gospel taught by Paul.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Many call themselves "followers of Jesus", but they don't listen to the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel, much less, understand, believe, follow, keep and abide in those words. Most do not even know the half of what Jesus said. It's relatively unimportant to the gospel taught by Paul.
Matthew Chapter 5 is pretty clear support for your view.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
In Ezekiel 18 God clearly states that "repentance" requires the unrighteous to cease to sin. In short, to make themselves righteous.

Ezekiel 18
21“But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

Yep. I never said otherwise.


In the gospel preached by Jesus, Jesus echoes, illustrates and refers to concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18.
Yep. As does Paul's.
For example:
1) In Ezekiel 18 God says, " I will judge each of you according to your own ways".
In Matthew 16 Jesus says, "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. "
Yep. Which begs the question of why you are not turning to YHVH from your sin and placing your trust in Jesus.

2) In Ezekiel 18, God says, " Repent and live"
In Luke 13, Jesus says, "unless you repent, you too will all perish"
Exactly! So why aren't you turning to YHVH from your sin and placing your trust in Jesus?

3) In Ezekiel 18 God says:

"Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?..Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?".
In Luke 15:11-31 Jesus illustrates this in The Parable of the Lost Son.
In Luke 15:3-7 Jesus illustrates this in part in The Parable of the Lost Sheep
In Luke 15:8-10 Jesus illustrates this in part in The Parable of the Lost Coin
In Matthew 20:1-15 Jesus illustrates this in part in The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
Exactly! So why aren't you turning to YHVH from your sin and placing your trust in Jesus?

4) In Ezekiel 18 God says that those who repent and no longer commit sin will "live" and. those who do not repent and continue to sin will "die".
In John 8 Jesus says:
"34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
31...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. "
35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
Exactly! So why aren't you turning to YHVH from your sin and placing your trust in Jesus?

>>>Clearly concepts set forth in Ezekiel 18 are integral to the gospel preached by Jesus.
Exactly! So why aren't you turning to YHVH from your sin and placing your trust in Jesus?

Actually making oneself righteous, that is ceasing to sin, does cleanse sin according to God.

Isaiah 1
16“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
17Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless;
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.
18...“Though your sins are as scarlet,
They will be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They will be like wool.


This is echoed by the gospel preached by Jesus. The unrighteous who abide in the gospel preached by Jesus will be made free from committing sin. They will be made righteous. They will be made clean.
Curious... isn't it!
According to Leviticus 17:11, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.
Lev 17:11 BBE For the life of the flesh is in its blood; and I have given it to you on the altar to take away your sin: for it is the blood which makes free from sin because of the life in it.

Curious why Jesus died then.

Since you don't like Paul, let's see what John, and Peter had to say about it.

1Pe 1:18-25 WEB 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ, 20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in this last age for your sake, 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead, and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For, “All flesh is like grass, and all of man’s glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls; 25 but the Lord’s word endures forever.” This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.

1Jn 1:5-10 WEB 5 This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1-2 WEB 1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

John 8
"34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
31...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
Why then do you not turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ?
Because upon your death, if you turn to YHVH and place your trust in Jesus, you will be welcomed into the house. But if you refuse, upon your death, you will be forever cut off from the house!

51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.
That's right! So why won't you turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ?


John 15
7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you.
8“By this is My Father glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments, and abide in His love.
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
Then why aren't you doing it?


.>>> Unfortunately many choose not to believe the gospel preached by Jesus. Many choose not to abide in Jesus' word. Many choose to not believe Jesus. Instead they choose to believe in the "gospel" put forth by Paul and followers of Paul.
I found it curious that when I asked you to detail the gospel of Jesus which you claim Paul did not proclaim you couldn't answer it. I figured you just decided to ignore it.

So you can stop talking about the difference between Paul and Jesus.

The only thing you are accomplishing is exposing your ignorance of both Jesus and Paul.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
O.K. So you state the difference here is that the repentance of JtB's ritual does not cleanse sin.

But that's not backed scripturally. The scripture clearly states in Mark 1: 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

The remission of sins is not only achieved in this way, but others as well as noted in Matthew 9:4-7 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, "Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say, 'Arise and walk'?

Lev 17:11 BBE For the life of the flesh is in its blood; and I have given it to you on the altar to take away your sin: for it is the blood which makes free from sin because of the life in it.

1Pe 1:18-25 WEB 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ, 20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in this last age for your sake, 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead, and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For, “All flesh is like grass, and all of man’s glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls; 25 but the Lord’s word endures forever.” This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.

1Jn 1:5-10 WEB 5 This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn 2:1-2 WEB 1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

Now.... considering these things... just how do you think that works?

This clearly indicated that Jesus was chastising the temple priests who were in the business of ritualizing the forgiveness of sin.
Business of ritualizing the forgiveness of sin...

Mar 7:6-7 WEB 6 He answered them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 But they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

Can you scripturally or doctrinally show me where, as you say above: "it still depends entirely on the final sacrifice for sin.... Jesus." for sin to be forgiven? What part of sin needed this final sacrifice - this *cleanup batter*, so to speak? Without a clear doctrine it seems that Christianity just shoplifted salvation from Judaism onto Christ for no apparent reason other than some mistake about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah - the liberator of Israel.

Lev 17:11 BBE For the life of the flesh is in its blood; and I have given it to you on the altar to take away your sin: for it is the blood which makes free from sin because of the life in it.

1Pe 1:18-25 WEB 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ, 20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in this last age for your sake, 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead, and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For, “All flesh is like grass, and all of man’s glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls; 25 but the Lord’s word endures forever.” This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.

1Jn 1:5-10 WEB 5 This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn 2:1-2 WEB 1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Lev 17:11 BBE For the life of the flesh is in its blood; and I have given it to you on the altar to take away your sin: for it is the blood which makes free from sin because of the life in it.

1Pe 1:18-25 WEB 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ, 20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in this last age for your sake, 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead, and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For, “All flesh is like grass, and all of man’s glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls; 25 but the Lord’s word endures forever.” This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.

1Jn 1:5-10 WEB 5 This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn 2:1-2 WEB 1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

Now.... considering these things... just how do you think that works?


Business of ritualizing the forgiveness of sin...

Mar 7:6-7 WEB 6 He answered them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 But they worship me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’



Lev 17:11 BBE For the life of the flesh is in its blood; and I have given it to you on the altar to take away your sin: for it is the blood which makes free from sin because of the life in it.

1Pe 1:18-25 WEB 18 knowing that you were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from the useless way of life handed down from your fathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish or spot, the blood of Christ, 20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in this last age for your sake, 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead, and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing you have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth through the Spirit in sincere brotherly affection, love one another from the heart fervently, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For, “All flesh is like grass, and all of man’s glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls; 25 but the Lord’s word endures forever.” This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.

1Jn 1:5-10 WEB 5 This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we haven’t sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jn 2:1-2 WEB 1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
Yeah, there is nothing in any of that that explains why Christ was needed for this. They are just statements about Christ that divert the redemptive forgiveness of sin from one process to another. Baptism for the remission of sins by Jewish prophets and temple priests sacrificing lambs for the redemptive forgiveness of sin, to Jesus - some new form of yet just another blood sacrifice. It was all already in place.

You have not explained what was missing from the Jewish processes of redemptive forgiveness of sin (Jewish baptism and sacrifice) to account for Jesus being a necessary and new model of redemption. What was necessarily added? You said a final sacrifice was needed. Specifically what for. You said forgiveness of sins was not redemptive until Jesus. Where did you support that?

You also claimed "According to Leviticus 17:11, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.
Lev 17:11 BBE For the life of the flesh is in its blood; and I have given it to you on the altar to take away your sin: for it is the blood which makes free from sin because of the life in it."
This does not state that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. It is obvious from the other quotes that obedience and righteousness does the same. Leviticus did not claim a sole necessity in blood.
 
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Algernon

Active member
Matthew Chapter 5 is pretty clear support for your view.
Matthew 5 is just the tip of the iceberg. For all intents and purposes, the underlying concepts of the gospel taught by Paul is antithetical to the underlying concepts of the gospel preached by Jesus.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Matthew 5 is just the tip of the iceberg. For all intents and purposes, the underlying concepts of the gospel taught by Paul is antithetical to the underlying concepts of the gospel preached by Jesus.
Which makes it very odd that @SteveB would claim something of you such as "That's right! So why won't you turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ?"

It's clear Steve follows Paul and you follow Jesus. As usual I don't think Steve gets it at all yet.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Matthew 5 is just the tip of the iceberg. For all intents and purposes, the underlying concepts of the gospel taught by Paul is antithetical to the underlying concepts of the gospel preached by Jesus.
well don't stop there!
Come on A!
Romans 12 states.

9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[fn] says the Lord. 20 Therefore



“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

If he is thirsty, give him a drink;

For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”
[fn]



21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Oh, wait....
Jesus said in Matthew 5....

1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:



3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,

For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are those who mourn,

For they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek,

For they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

For they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful,

For they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart,

For they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers,

For they shall be called sons of God.

10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,

For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.



11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

gosh.... those sound pretty similar.

[2Ti 3:12 NKJV] 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
Oh, we can't forget about this.

I have a novel idea here Algernon.... and I know that I've asked you this at least twice now, and you vanish, so please follow through.....

Do a side by side comparison of Paul's and Jesus' teachings you think don't match.

You obviously have convinced yourself that you're far more intelligent than I and other Jesus followers are, so this should be a really easy task for you.
 
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