John5:28-29 and Lutheran theology

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dberrie2020

Well-known member
What is the answer according to the immediate context? “24. "Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.25. Most assuredly I say to you, that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those having heard shall live. 26. For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27. and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.” (Joh 5:24-27, EMTV)

Marvel not that the one who hears the true Jesus and believe in Him who sent Jesus has eternal life. It is has eternal life rather than will have eternal life. The ones which have eternal life through faith in the true Jesus will not come into judgement.

Do you believe in the true Jesus? Do you hear the true Jesus and believe in Him who sent the true Jesus? If you do then why don't you think Jesus was telling the truth? Why do you think to your own eternal condemnation if you don't repent that those who hear the true Jesus and believe in Him who sent the true Jesus do not have eternal life and will come into judgement?

Surely you recognize that those who have eternal life will necessarily be raised unto eternal life and those that do not have eternal life will necessarily be raised unto damnation." https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-athanasian-creed.7776/post-555661

Whenever I post John5:28-29--which testifies all men will be judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation--IE:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

...I often find those who counter with John5:24:

John 5:24---New American Standard Bible
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

IOW, according to those who post John5:24--John5:28-29 really comes into question, as those who inherit eternal life really aren't judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation. John5:28-29 is just an "out of context" quote.

The Athanasian creed also affirms John5:28-29:

Athanasian Creed
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

There are translations which translate John5:24 in a different manner:

John 5:24---King James Version
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

IOW--those who have believed in Christ won't be condemned--that term being the equivalent of "come into judgment" found in other translations.

That translation, IE--"condemnation" is compatible with John5:28-29---but claiming it means they won't come into any judgment isn't. Those who believe in Christ--Judgment unto condemnation, no--but still--a judgment according to works.

So--my question to the Lutherans: how do you comport John5:24(does not come into judgment) with John5:28-29--and the numerous testimonies all men will be judged according to works--if you maintain the "does not come unto judgment" means no judgment according to works?

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

How does one fit that into faith alone theology?
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Hi DB,

Since the title of the OP is again in reference to John 5 this response will again focus on John 5. The other verses that you've posted and strung together in an out of context manner will be addressed later.
Whenever I post John5:28-29--which testifies all men will be judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation--IE:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

...I often find those who counter with John5:24:

John 5:24---New American Standard Bible
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

IOW, according to those who post John5:24--John5:28-29 really comes into question, as those who inherit eternal life really aren't judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation. John5:28-29 is just an "out of context" quote.
Yes, since the topic Jesus is primarily speaking of is the relationship of the Father and the Son and what it means to believe in the the one who sent Him, the Father, and since your use of the passage excludes that context then your use of the passage is necessarily out of context.

“16. And on account of this the Jews began to persecute Jesus, and were seeking to kill Him, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.17. But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I am working." 18. Because of this the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but also He called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19. Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father doing; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20. For the Father loves the Son, and shows to Him all things which He Himself does; and greater works than these He will show Him, so that you may marvel. 21. For as the Father raises up the dead and gives life, thus also the Son gives life to whom He wills. 22. For the Father judges no one, but He has committed all judgment to the Son, 23. so that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.” (Joh 5:16-23, EMTV)

Jesus said to those standing before Him, "as the Father raises up the dead and gives life so the Son gives life to whom He wills." The words that are bold are present tense verbs rather than future tense verbs.

“24. "Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” (Joh 5:23-24, EMTV)

The verb translated as has is present tense. The verb translated as shall is future tense. The one who has eternal life through faith alone has already been judged so there is no future condemnation or judgement. The English words condemnation and judgement in this passage are a translator's choice.

“25. Most assuredly I say to you, that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those having heard shall live. 26. For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27. and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.” (Joh 5:25-27, EMTV)

Consistent with what Jesus just said He then tells them that those who will hear shall live, both future tense verbs.

“28. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice 29. and shall come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.” (Joh 5:28-29, EMTV)

What should now be obvious to all is that the one Judge judges all but the dividing line is faith, "he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," rather than a future judgement of their works. The one who has eternal life is necessarily raised to the resurrection of life. The one who does not have eternal life through faith in the true Father and the one He has sent, the true Christ, is necessarily raised to the resurrection of condemnation by his works.

The interpretation of this section of Scripture by the unbeliever in the true Father and the true Son is skewed by his sin. Without the Savior all he can see is his own sin and then desperately seek to justify himself by his own works. This obvious truth continues to be made plain as one continues to read John five and six.
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
.The Athanasian creed also affirms John5:28-29:
No, that is a misuse and abuse of the Creed since ignore the context of John 5:28-29 in order to misinterpret it and misrepresent it. The context in which the creed was written is the worship of the triune God. The true Jesus, the son of Mary and Son of God, is the judge of all just as John 5 says.

All you have repetitively done with regard to the Athanasian Creed is take a few words out of context so that some might mistake them to support your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of the role of works in the life of those who have eternal life.

It is like someone failing to recognize the different contexts in which the following few words are said, "I am going to the bar." The dancer in the studio who says that refers to the device attached to the wall for stretching and warm up. The social drinker walking to the local watering hole who says that is referring to the Saloon on the corner. The lawyer who says that is going to the location of his professional association.

Scripture is the norming norm of the Creed. The writers of what became the Creed did not intend to say anything contrary to Scripture, for example, nothing contrary to John chapter five regarding Christ.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Hi DB,

Since the title of the OP is again in reference to John 5 this response will again focus on John 5. The other verses that you've posted and strung together in an out of context manner will be addressed later.

Yes, since the topic Jesus is primarily speaking of is the relationship of the Father and the Son and what it means to believe in the the one who sent Him, the Father, and since your use of the passage excludes that context then your use of the passage is necessarily out of context.

“16. And on account of this the Jews began to persecute Jesus, and were seeking to kill Him, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath.17. But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I am working." 18. Because of this the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but also He called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19. Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father doing; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20. For the Father loves the Son, and shows to Him all things which He Himself does; and greater works than these He will show Him, so that you may marvel. 21. For as the Father raises up the dead and gives life, thus also the Son gives life to whom He wills. 22. For the Father judges no one, but He has committed all judgment to the Son, 23. so that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.” (Joh 5:16-23, EMTV)

Jesus said to those standing before Him, "as the Father raises up the dead and gives life so the Son gives life to whom He wills." The words that are bold are present tense verbs rather than future tense verbs.

“24. "Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” (Joh 5:23-24, EMTV)

The verb translated as has is present tense. The verb translated as shall is future tense. The one who has eternal life through faith alone has already been judged so there is no future condemnation or judgement. The English words condemnation and judgement in this passage are a translator's choice.

“25. Most assuredly I say to you, that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those having heard shall live. 26. For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27. and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.” (Joh 5:25-27, EMTV)

Consistent with what Jesus just said He then tells them that those who will hear shall live, both future tense verbs.

“28. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice 29. and shall come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.” (Joh 5:28-29, EMTV)

What should now be obvious to all is that the one Judge judges all but the dividing line is faith, "he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," rather than a future judgement of their works. The one who has eternal life is necessarily raised to the resurrection of life. The one who does not have eternal life through faith in the true Father and the one He has sent, the true Christ, is necessarily raised to the resurrection of condemnation by his works.

The interpretation of this section of Scripture by the unbeliever in the true Father and the true Son is skewed by his sin. Without the Savior all he can see is his own sin and then desperately seek to justify himself by his own works. This obvious truth continues to be made plain as one continues to read John five and six.
So "doing good" is believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior. Which then leads to doing good works, IN salvation, not FOR salvation.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
So "doing good" is believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior. Which then leads to doing good works, IN salvation, not FOR salvation.
Ja, the context matters.

The true Jesus told the crowd: “26. Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27. Do not work not for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you; for upon Him God the Father has set His seal."” (Joh 6:26-27, EMTV)

The response from the crowd: “Then they said to Him, "What should we do, that we may work the works of God?"” (Joh 6:28, EMTV)

Jesus answered: “Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."” (Joh 6:29, EMTV)

The will of the true God with regard to the true Christ: “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."” (Joh 6:40, EMTV)
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Moving on to 2 Corinthians 5:
2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
The context is in the preceding verses, for example, “4. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, inasmuch as we do not desire to be stripped, but to put on clothing, that that which is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5. Now He who has prepared us for this very purpose is God, who also has given to us the Spirit as a guarantee.” (2Cor 5:4-5, EMTV)

Those are things which God has done to and for Paul and and those to whom he writes. “6. Therefore always being confident, and knowing that while we are in the body, we are away from home from the Lord7. (for we walk by faith, not by sight), 8. but we are confident and prefer rather to be away from home from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.” (2Cor 5:6-8, EMTV)

Since all those things are already true, “Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether being at home, or being away from home, to be well pleasing to Him.” (2Cor 5:9, EMTV)

The ongoing ambition to be well pleasing to Him is the consequence of what God has done and is doing in the believer through faith rather than the cause of God doing those things in the future. “10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11. Knowing, therefore, the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; but we have been made known to God. And I also hope to have been made known in your consciences.” (2Cor 5:10-11, EMTV)

Paul and the true Christians are known to God as well pleasing to Him through faith rather than waiting to find out if they are known to God as well pleasing to Him and will be saved through their works.

How does one fit that into faith alone theology?
Once again, since we echo what Scripture says according to it's God given perfect immediate context there is nothing to fit into our theology.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Moving on to 2 Corinthians 5:

The context is in the preceding verses, for example, “4. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, inasmuch as we do not desire to be stripped, but to put on clothing, that that which is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5. Now He who has prepared us for this very purpose is God, who also has given to us the Spirit as a guarantee.” (2Cor 5:4-5, EMTV)

Those are things which God has done to and for Paul and and those to whom he writes. “6. Therefore always being confident, and knowing that while we are in the body, we are away from home from the Lord7. (for we walk by faith, not by sight), 8. but we are confident and prefer rather to be away from home from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.” (2Cor 5:6-8, EMTV)

Since all those things are already true, “Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether being at home, or being away from home, to be well pleasing to Him.” (2Cor 5:9, EMTV)

The ongoing ambition to be well pleasing to Him is the consequence of what God has done and is doing in the believer through faith rather than the cause of God doing those things in the future. “10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11. Knowing, therefore, the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; but we have been made known to God. And I also hope to have been made known in your consciences.” (2Cor 5:10-11, EMTV)

Paul and the true Christians are known to God as well pleasing to Him through faith rather than waiting to find out if they are known to God as well pleasing to Him and will be saved through their works.


Once again, since we echo what Scripture says according to it's God given perfect immediate context there is nothing to fit into our theology.
It is also very plain in Eph. 2:8-10. "For we are GOD'S WORKMANSHIP, created"--passive tense here--in Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared IN ADVANCE for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

So, according to Paul and the context, WHOSE workmanship are we? Our own? Or God's? What does it mean to be "created in Christ Jesus"? And to be created IN HIM FOR GOOD WORKS? Does that mean we do them IN Christ Jesus, i.e., in faith in Him, or outside of faith in Christ Jesus? Hebrews 11 makes it plain that all of the great works of the saints are done BY FAITH. I think the word there is "dia" which means "by means of." It also says in Hebrews that without faith it is impossible to please God.

So, He Who has prepared us in advance to do good works, so that we may walk in them, will enable us to do good works in faith, not to BE saved but because we are already saved.

Preaching to the choir with you, BJ, I know...:)
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Moving on to 2 Corinthians 5:

The context is in the preceding verses, for example, “4. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, inasmuch as we do not desire to be stripped, but to put on clothing, that that which is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5. Now He who has prepared us for this very purpose is God, who also has given to us the Spirit as a guarantee.” (2Cor 5:4-5, EMTV)

Those are things which God has done to and for Paul and and those to whom he writes. “6. Therefore always being confident, and knowing that while we are in the body, we are away from home from the Lord7. (for we walk by faith, not by sight), 8. but we are confident and prefer rather to be away from home from the body, and to be at home with the Lord.” (2Cor 5:6-8, EMTV)

Since all those things are already true, “Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether being at home, or being away from home, to be well pleasing to Him.” (2Cor 5:9, EMTV)

The ongoing ambition to be well pleasing to Him is the consequence of what God has done and is doing in the believer through faith rather than the cause of God doing those things in the future. “10. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11. Knowing, therefore, the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; but we have been made known to God. And I also hope to have been made known in your consciences.” (2Cor 5:10-11, EMTV)

Paul and the true Christians are known to God as well pleasing to Him through faith rather than waiting to find out if they are known to God as well pleasing to Him and will be saved through their works.

Please explain how any of that fits into the testimony of Christ's witness that all men will be judged according to works--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That links works (obedience to Jesus Christ) and life. That defies faith alone theology.

Once again, since we echo what Scripture says according to it's God given perfect immediate context there is nothing to fit into our theology.

Yes there is. The scriptures connects our choices with God's grace in John5:28-29.

How does one fit that into faith alone theology?

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
It is also very plain in Eph. 2:8-10. "For we are GOD'S WORKMANSHIP, created"--passive tense here--in Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared IN ADVANCE for us to do, so that we may walk in them."

So, according to Paul and the context, WHOSE workmanship are we? Our own? Or God's? What does it mean to be "created in Christ Jesus"? And to be created IN HIM FOR GOOD WORKS? Does that mean we do them IN Christ Jesus, i.e., in faith in Him, or outside of faith in Christ Jesus? Hebrews 11 makes it plain that all of the great works of the saints are done BY FAITH. I think the word there is "dia" which means "by means of." It also says in Hebrews that without faith it is impossible to please God.

So, He Who has prepared us in advance to do good works, so that we may walk in them, will enable us to do good works in faith, not to BE saved but because we are already saved.

If one is already saved when they do those works--then why are all judged according to their choices--after death--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Please explain how any of that fits into the testimony of Christ's witness that all men will be judged according to works--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That links works (obedience to Jesus Christ) and life. That defies faith alone theology.



Yes there is. The scriptures connects our choices with God's grace in John5:28-29.

How does one fit that into faith alone theology?

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Did you not read post #2? If you did then your latest reply makes no sense.

For the record, when Jesus speaks of those who have eternal life through faith in John 5:24 the type of action indicated is an ongoing action. That one doesn't come into a future judgement. Jesus tells us why that one doesn't come unto a future judgment, namely, because he has passed out of death into life.

John 5:24---New American Standard Bible
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

When you string together out of context passages in order to support an error it doesn't change the actual context of those verses. See above.
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
Whenever I post John5:28-29--which testifies all men will be judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation--IE:
Do Mormons have any doctrine of adoption? Eph. 1:5 speaks of being "adopted as sons through Jesus Christ," then of course there's the locus classicus, Romans 8:14-17,

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

...and also, Galatians 4
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

The plain teachings of Scripture on adoption are one of the main reasons that the misinterpretation of being saved by works in cult systems like Mormonism are so pernicious. The insidious "works salvation" does not "comport" with the clear teaching of Scripture. and a fair treatment of the entire Bible. In the mormon system, one "works" to be kept being an adopted child of God.... one is made an heir, and then has to do stuff to remain an heir!

So much for crying "Abba Father" in the Mormon system! One can cry all they want, but unless they keep proving themselves a child of God by their works, God will disown you! Yep, that sounds just like a "Father".... NOT!!!!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Do Mormons have any doctrine of adoption? Eph. 1:5 speaks of being "adopted as sons through Jesus Christ," then of course there's the locus classicus, Romans 8:14-17,

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

...and also, Galatians 4
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

The plain teachings of Scripture on adoption are one of the main reasons that the misinterpretation of being saved by works in cult systems like Mormonism are so pernicious. The insidious "works salvation" does not "comport" with the clear teaching of Scripture. and a fair treatment of the entire Bible. In the mormon system, one "works" to be kept being an adopted child of God.... one is made an heir, and then has to do stuff to remain an heir!

So much for crying "Abba Father" in the Mormon system! One can cry all they want, but unless they keep proving themselves a child of God by their works, God will disown you! Yep, that sounds just like a "Father".... NOT!!!!
A few Mormons on here have tried to say that we are adopted to Jesus Christ, but nowhere does Scripture say that. We are adopted to God as His children THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ. Grace through faith in HIM gives us the right to BECOME the children of God, as John 1 says. However, I don't wish to go off topic about this, as discussing what Mormons believe is for the Mormon board.
 

Tertiumquid

Well-known member
A few Mormons on here have tried to say that we are adopted to Jesus Christ, but nowhere does Scripture say that. We are adopted to God as His children THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ. Grace through faith in HIM gives us the right to BECOME the children of God, as John 1 says. However, I don't wish to go off topic about this, as discussing what Mormons believe is for the Mormon board.
Hi Bonnie-

Thanks for the reply. I've been thinking a lot lately about "proof-text" argumentation and how futile places like CARM are at times in terms of meaningful interactions. These continual proof-text argumentsn... will simply continue along the lines of, "here are a bunch of verses from the KJV about the necessity of works" along with ample use of the word, "comport." The answer of the relationship of faith and works has been provided countless times. They've been "comported," countless times... so many times that if the information is not welcomed as the God-given truth it is, it's time to shake the cyber dust from our virtual feet.

The Scriptures also have a doctrine of God and Christology... and these all need to be factored in! It simply struck me of how ludicrous it is to discuss the relationship between faith and works with someone who adheres to a different god and a different Jesus.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Hi Bonnie-

Thanks for the reply. I've been thinking a lot lately about "proof-text" argumentation and how futile places like CARM are at times in terms of meaningful interactions. These continual proof-text argumentsn... will simply continue along the lines of, "here are a bunch of verses from the KJV about the necessity of works" along with ample use of the word, "comport." The answer of the relationship of faith and works has been provided countless times. They've been "comported," countless times... so many times that if the information is not welcomed as the God-given truth it is, it's time to shake the cyber dust from our virtual feet.

The Scriptures also have a doctrine of God and Christology... and these all need to be factored in! It simply struck me of how ludicrous it is to discuss the relationship between faith and works with someone who adheres to a different god and a different Jesus.
I basically agree with you. This discussion of the relationship between faith and works has been discussed to death on here, the RCC board, and the Mormon board. I don't know if it has been discussed as well on other boards, as I have not been on those. But it shows the spiritual blindness of those who refuse to take ALL of the Biblical witness into consideration when discussing this. It is if they are simply incapable of seeing the true relationship between the two--that good works are done IN faith, IN salvation, not FOR faith or FOR salvation. We are able to do good works pleasing to God BECAUSE we are saved, not to get saved. There is a huge difference between the two, would you not agree?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
For the record, when Jesus speaks of those who have eternal life through faith in John 5:24 the type of action indicated is an ongoing action. That one doesn't come into a future judgement.

The scriptures testify all men will come into future judgment:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Jesus tells us why that one doesn't come unto a future judgment, namely, because he has passed out of death into life.

John 5:24---New American Standard Bible
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

When you string together out of context passages in order to support an error it doesn't change the actual context of those verses. See above.

So--let's examine that particular.

Since just four verses later--the Savior testifies all men will come into judgment........

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Is it possible the "does not come into judgment" is a phrase meaning they don't come into condemnation?

John 5:24---King James Version
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

That translation allows all the testimonies to harmonize, IMO.

Expositor's Greek Testament
John 5:24. ὁ τὸν λόγον μου ἀκούων; it was through His word Jesus conveyed life to the impotent man, because that brought Him into spiritual connection with the man. And it is through His claims, His teaching, His offers, He brings Himself into connection with all. It is a general truth not confined to the impotent man. But to hear is not enough: καὶ πιστεύων τῷ πέμψαντί με, belief on Him that sent Jesus must accompany hearing. Not simply belief on Jesus but on God. The word of Jesus must be recognised as a Divine message, a word with power to fulfil it. In this case, by the very hearing and believing, ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον. As the impotent man had, in his believing, physical life, so whoever believes in Christ’s word as God’s message receives the life of God into his spirit. Faith has also a negative result; εἰς κρίσιν οὐκ ἔρχεται [cf. οὐκ ἐθελόντων ὑμῶν ἐλθεῖν εἰς κρίσιν, quoted from Demosthenes by Wetstein. Herodotus also uses the expression]. Literally this means “he does not come to trial”; but has it not the fuller meaning “come under condemnation”? Meyer says “yes”: Godet says “no”. Meyer is right. This clause is the direct negative of the former: to come to judgment is to come under condemnation,

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

and shall not come into condemnation; neither for original sin, though judgment has passed upon all men unto condemnation for it; nor for actual sins and transgressions: for though everyone deserves condemnation, yet were there as many sentences of condemnation issued out as sins committed, not one of them could be executed on such who are in Christ Jesus, as he that believes in him is openly and manifestatively in him: the reason is, because the death of Christ is a security against all condemnation; and whoever believes in him shall not be condemned, but saved; and though he may come into judgment, yet not into condemnation: he shall stand in judgment, ......
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do Mormons have any doctrine of adoption? Eph. 1:5 speaks of being "adopted as sons through Jesus Christ," then of course there's the locus classicus, Romans 8:14-17,

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

...and also, Galatians 4
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

The plain teachings of Scripture on adoption are one of the main reasons that the misinterpretation of being saved by works.....

Before we engage the "saved by works" accusation--could you give us a cite where anyone has claimed one is saved by works?

Is this an example of what you claim is being "saved by works"?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The LDS believe one is saved by God's grace--which goes to them which walk in His light:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Or--is that another example of being "saved by works"?

How does one fit that into a faith alone theology?

in cult systems like Mormonism are so pernicious.

Is this an example of why "cult systems" like Lutheranism are so pernicious?

James 2:24---King James Version
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Tertiumquid--could you explain for us why Lutheranism does not qualify under the definition of "cult"?

The insidious "works salvation" does not "comport" with the clear teaching of Scripture. and a fair treatment of the entire Bible.

Before we engage that--could you define "works salvation" in accordance with your understanding?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
In the mormon system, one "works" to be kept being an adopted child of God....

Would these be an example of that claim?

Galatians 3:26-27---King James Version
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Matthew 10:22---King James Version
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

one is made an heir, and then has to do stuff to remain an heir!

Such as this?

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

So much for crying "Abba Father" in the Mormon system! One can cry all they want, but unless they keep proving themselves a child of God by their works, God will disown you! Yep, that sounds just like a "Father".... NOT!!!!

So--would this be an example which proves your point?

Matthew 25:14-30---King James Version
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
It simply struck me of how ludicrous it is to discuss the relationship between faith and works .....

It seems to be futile when one compares a theology which claims it's a faith without works which one is saved through--to the Biblical testimony:

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Think of that--the Lutherans claiming one is saved through what the Biblical text terms a dead faith?

Yes--it's futile to compare those two testimonies, IMO. How do you explain that?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
It is if they are simply incapable of seeing the true relationship between the two--that good works are done IN faith, IN salvation, not FOR faith or FOR salvation. We are able to do good works pleasing to God BECAUSE we are saved, not to get saved. There is a huge difference between the two, would you not agree?

So--could you reveal to us whether these were saved prior to the Blood of Christ--or after the Blood cleansed them from all sin?

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Bonnie--there is a difference.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The answer of the relationship of faith and works has been provided countless times. They've been "comported," countless times... so many times that if the information is not welcomed as the God-given truth it is, it's time to shake the cyber dust from our virtual feet.

There is one speck of dust the Lutherans won't be able to shake from the souls of their feet:

James 2:18-26---King James Version
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
 
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