John5:28-29 and Lutheran theology

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dberrie2020

Well-known member
[/quote]dberrie2020 said: The Athanasian creed also affirms John5:28-29:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
[/quote]

No, that is a misuse and abuse of the Creed since ignore the context of John 5:28-29 in order to misinterpret it and misrepresent it.

Please do explain why comparing John5:28-29 to the Athanasian Creed is a misinterpretation or misrepresentation?

Could you explain what there is in the posted verses of the Athanasian Creed below--which isn't representative of John5:28-29?

Athanasian Creed​


40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

John 5:28-29---King James Version

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So--can you be saved, in accordance with the Athanasian Creed?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Consistent with what Jesus just said He then tells them that those who will hear shall live, both future tense verbs.

“28. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice 29. and shall come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.” (Joh 5:28-29, EMTV)

What should now be obvious to all is that the one Judge judges all but the dividing line is faith, "he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life,

That only links those who "believes in Him" as those who have "done good":

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
So "doing good" is believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and God and Savior.

Bingo.

Therefore--those who have "done good" here--are those who believe in Jesus Christ:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Please do explain why comparing John5:28-29 to the Athanasian Creed is a misinterpretation or misrepresentation?

Could you explain what there is in the posted verses of the Athanasian Creed below--which isn't representative of John5:28-29?

<snip>


So--can you be saved, in accordance with the Athanasian Creed?
The point is that you are comparing one out of context interpretation with another out of context interpretation in order to create an illusion of a confirmation of your biased misinterpretation.

Let's start with the Scriptural distinction that faith is not a work and a work is not faith. There are numerous passages which we have gone over before that state and demonstrate that distinction. There is no need to go over that again. No man born in the ordinary way is saved by his works. Period. Full stop.

If you want to make a one to one comparison of John 5:28-29 to that snip from the creed then it is the proclamation of the deity of the true Christ, He is the Lord of all. The one that doesn't have the true Son does not have the Father, therefore, only everlasting condemnation awaits such a person.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Bingo.

Therefore--those who have "done good" here--are those who believe in Jesus Christ:
There is only a bingo through faith in Christ, a gift of God, not because of any righteous work we have done. See the preceding passages in John 5.

“Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance [pistis, faith] unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.” (Act 17:31, KJVA)
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie said---Please do explain why comparing John5:28-29 to the Athanasian Creed is a misinterpretation or misrepresentation?

Could you explain what there is in the posted verses of the Athanasian Creed below--which isn't representative of John5:28-29?

Athanasian Creed​


40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

John 5:28-29---King James Version

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So--can you be saved, in accordance with the Athanasian Creed?

The point is that you are comparing one out of context interpretation with another out of context interpretation in order to create an illusion of a confirmation of your biased misinterpretation.

Why are scriptures which defy Lutheran theology always "out of context"? What do you feel is my " biased misinterpretation" of the above scripture?

Why is any special interpretation needed--unless there has to be some gerrymandering to fit that into one's personal theology?

Let's start with the Scriptural distinction that faith is not a work and a work is not faith.

How does your conclusion somehow change what the scriptures, and the Athanasian Creed testifies to, IE--that all men will be judged according to their own works--and that for like or damnation?

How do you match that with Lutheran faith alone theology?

There are numerous passages which we have gone over before that state and demonstrate that distinction. There is no need to go over that again. No man born in the ordinary way is saved by his works. Period. Full stop.

Where has anyone claimed one is saved by works? Cite, please.

BJ--that is just another claim the faith alone make whenever scriptures are quoted which link works with His grace unto life. It runs in the same vein same as the "out of context" claims.

IOW--is this an example of one being saved by works?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

If it is--your point is to taken up with the Savior, not me, IMO.

If you want to make a one to one comparison of John 5:28-29 to that snip from the creed then it is the proclamation of the deity of the true Christ, He is the Lord of all. The one that doesn't have the true Son does not have the Father, therefore, only everlasting condemnation awaits such a person.

And just how are you claiming that changes the testimony of the Savior--and the Athanasian Creed--which both have all men being judged according to their works--and that for life or damnation?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
There is only a bingo through faith in Christ, a gift of God, not because of any righteous work we have done. See the preceding passages in John 5.

Sorry, BJ--but John 5 has all men judged in accordance with their works--and that for life or damnation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

“Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance [pistis, faith] unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.” (Act 17:31, KJVA)

And just how does God giving assurance "that he hath raised him from the dead.” ---somehow circumvent Christ's testimony all men will be judged according to works--and that for life or damnation?

BJ--how does one fit that into faith alone theology?
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said: The Athanasian creed also affirms John5:28-29:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.




Please do explain why comparing John5:28-29 to the Athanasian Creed is a misinterpretation or misrepresentation?

Could you explain what there is in the posted verses of the Athanasian Creed below--which isn't representative of John5:28-29?

Athanasian Creed​


40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

John 5:28-29---King James Version

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So--can you be saved, in accordance with the Athanasian Creed?
Those are repetitive questions which were already answered. The problem with them is the out of context manner in which you are trying to use them. The creed and the verses you cite are assertions of the deity of the true Christ. They are not teaching a salvation by works.

Read John chapter five and the creed to see and understand their respective contexts.
 
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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Sorry, BJ--but John 5 has all men judged in accordance with their works--and that for life or damnation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



And just how does God giving assurance "that he hath raised him from the dead.” ---somehow circumvent Christ's testimony all men will be judged according to works--and that for life or damnation?

BJ--how does one fit that into faith alone theology?
Your reply is illogical and based upon a misreading or denial of what Scripture says, including what it says about itself. For the sake of argument consider that just as Scripture says there is a true Christ who was incarnate, crucified, and risen from the dead roughly two thousand years ago.

Doing that changes the way you are trying to interpret Scripture and the creed because it is telling you about actual people and events rather than abstract ideas which can be and are to be glued together in a capricious manner.

For example, the true Christ told actual people that they have (an ongoing action) eternal life through faith in John chapter five. Those people to whom He was speaking would not come into judgement, a future event. Your out of context misinterpretation of a few passages later in John five and a snip of the creed have those people coming into a future judgement.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Do Mormons have any doctrine of adoption? Eph. 1:5 speaks of being "adopted as sons through Jesus Christ," then of course there's the locus classicus, Romans 8:14-17,

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

...and also, Galatians 4
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

The plain teachings of Scripture on adoption are one of the main reasons that the misinterpretation of being saved by works in cult systems like Mormonism are so pernicious. The insidious "works salvation" does not "comport" with the clear teaching of Scripture. and a fair treatment of the entire Bible. In the mormon system, one "works" to be kept being an adopted child of God.... one is made an heir, and then has to do stuff to remain an heir!

So much for crying "Abba Father" in the Mormon system! One can cry all they want, but unless they keep proving themselves a child of God by their works, God will disown you! Yep, that sounds just like a "Father".... NOT!!!!
Ja, the bottom line for the cults is that Grace is not grace. It is neither unmerited favor or a gift, but is at best an opportunity to work or merit something.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
Hi Bonnie-

Thanks for the reply. I've been thinking a lot lately about "proof-text" argumentation and how futile places like CARM are at times in terms of meaningful interactions. These continual proof-text argumentsn... will simply continue along the lines of, "here are a bunch of verses from the KJV about the necessity of works" along with ample use of the word, "comport." The answer of the relationship of faith and works has been provided countless times. They've been "comported," countless times... so many times that if the information is not welcomed as the God-given truth it is, it's time to shake the cyber dust from our virtual feet.
I've come to call those repetitive out of context Scripture citations Scripture passage Bingo!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Those are repetitive questions which were already answered. The problem with them is the out of context manner in which you are trying to use them.

Morning, BJ:

Isn't that the usual retort whenever scriptures are posted which defy one's theology?

So--what do you believe is out of context about the testimony of Christ--that all men will be judged according to their choices--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The creed and the verses you cite are assertions of the deity of the true Christ. They are not teaching a salvation by works.

So--is a judgement according to works--a "salvation by works" theology?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

This is found in the Athanasian Creed?

Athanasian Creed​


40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Your reply is illogical and based upon a misreading or denial of what Scripture says, including what it says about itself. For the sake of argument consider that just as Scripture says there is a true Christ who was incarnate, crucified, and risen from the dead roughly two thousand years ago.

It was that very Christ which testified to this truth?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Doing that changes the way you are trying to interpret Scripture and the creed because it is telling you about actual people and events rather than abstract ideas which can be and are to be glued together in a capricious manner.

Are you claiming this was just arbitrarily glued together?

Athanasian Creed​


40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.


For example, the true Christ told actual people that they have (an ongoing action) eternal life through faith in John chapter five.

What is your evidence these are not the ones who had that faith?

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting....

Those people to whom He was speaking would not come into judgement, a future event.

What is there about the testimony of the Savior--that all men will be judged--are we not believing?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In case one might have missed it--that included those who have done good unto life.

It certainly includes the Christians here:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Ja.

BTW, I checked several of your recent posts and didn't see a sig. Did you turn it off?
No, but sometimes it shows up, and sometimes it does not. I have no idea why. I checked, and my signature is still in my profile. I hit "save" again. But I see it did no good. I can't see my signature, either, on this thread.
 

Nic

Well-known member
No, but sometimes it shows up, and sometimes it does not. I have no idea why. I checked, and my signature is still in my profile. I hit "save" again. But I see it did no good. I can't see my signature, either, on this thread.
I had my preferences settings to not see signatures and attempted to cycle the toggle along with signing in and out, and I can neither view signatures logged in or out regardless of preference settings.
Nic
 

Arch Stanton

Well-known member
No, but sometimes it shows up, and sometimes it does not. I have no idea why. I checked, and my signature is still in my profile. I hit "save" again. But I see it did no good. I can't see my signature, either, on this thread.
I still see your signature
 

Bonnie

Super Member
No, but sometimes it shows up, and sometimes it does not. I have no idea why. I checked, and my signature is still in my profile. I hit "save" again. But I see it did no good. I can't see my signature, either, on this thread.
This is part of my signature, about Mormon debate tactics I have observed over the years. 3-5 are most applicable here.

1. Attempt to deflect from the OP
2. Change the subject--often drastically
3. Repeat the same old questions, over and over again, and....
4. Pretend we have not answered their questions or dealt with their points, to make it appear that we have not, and they can claim they won the debate.
5. Ignore our points and Bible verses that put their quoted bible verses into proper perspective, that show that they have misinterpreted and/or misunderstood what the Bible was talking about
6. When they cannot refute what Christians post, fall back onto their "testimony" of their church and prophet, Joseph Smith.
7. Make ad homs against us. Rare. And only used by a very few.
 
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