John5:28-29 and Lutheran theology

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BJ Bear

Well-known member
Morning, BJ:

Isn't that the usual retort whenever scriptures are posted which defy one's theology?
Whatever your perception may be it is true again with regard to our discussion. Your stance in this regard is similar to that of the unbelievers in the beginning of John 5. A man disabled for decades was healed but the matter of import to them was clinging to their error and finding the one who violated their error.

Like those unbelievers you are ignoring or denying the context of that section of John 5. The evidence is below.
So--what do you believe is out of context about the testimony of Christ--that all men will be judged according to their choices--and that for life or damnation?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



So--is a judgement according to works--a "salvation by works" theology?

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

This is found in the Athanasian Creed?

Athanasian Creed​


40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
It has already been pointed out to you according to John 5 how and why the believers already have, a continuing action, eternal life and will not come into the future judgement you insist upon. You have not addressed this point in any way other than to insist upon your misinterpretation of John 5.

For the sake of argument, read Scripture as if what it says is true and the occurrences which it depicts actually happened. When you do that then ask yourself who is Jesus speaking to according to John 5?

If you do that then you will realize that He was speaking to first century Jews rather than twenty first century Mormons or anyone else that isn't a first century Jew. What did those first century Jews know about what happens when God enters judgement with a man born in the natural way, that is, a man who is not the Christ? That man cannot stand, that is, he is condemned. “1. Hear my prayer, O Lord, give ear to my supplications: in thy faithfulness answer me, and in thy righteousness. 2. And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.” (Psa 143:1-2, KJVA)

Since this is necessarily true go back to the previous passages in John 5 to see who has eternal life. “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” (Joh 5:24, KJVA) That would be the true Jesus, the one your leader or former leader (McConkey?) said Mormons have nothing to do with.

Jesús refers to nothing other than faith, a gift from God.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
This is part of my signature, about Mormon debate tactics I have observed over the years. 3-5 are most applicable here.

1. Attempt to deflect from the OP
2. Change the subject--often drastically
3. Repeat the same old questions, over and over again, and....
4. Pretend we have not answered their questions or dealt with their points, to make it appear that we have not, and they can claim they won the debate.
5. Ignore our points and Bible verses that put their quoted bible verses into proper perspective, that show that they have misinterpreted and/or misunderstood what the Bible was talking about
6. When they cannot refute what Christians post, fall back onto their "testimony" of their church and prophet, Joseph Smith.
7. Make ad homs against us. Rare. And only used by a very few.
Thank you.

Yes, 3-5 hit the mark. That is what happens when clinging to their error is more important to them than the true God and His true word.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
the all important 1jn2:19? Security!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

I see mine and Bonnie's .... not sure if you have one though
No, the sense of accomplishment in being able to log in again overrode any desire to create a sig. Maybe now is the time?
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
It was that very Christ which testified to this truth?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Yes, that is to be understood according to the immediate context rather than your misinterpretation. For example, the verbs translated as, "done," in verse 29 are aorist. This means that the type of action is undefined and the take away is that it occurred. Apart from the forgiveness of sins which is only in the true Christ by faith alone every man is condemned by a single sin.
Are you claiming this was just arbitrarily glued together?

Athanasian Creed​


40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.




What is your evidence these are not the ones who had that faith?

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting....
Yes, you've arbitrarily glued them together in order to support your error.
What is there about the testimony of the Savior--that all men will be judged--are we not believing?

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
See above. Also note that the judging by Jesus was an ongoing action during His passion, “21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:” (Joh 5:21-22, KJVA)
In case one might have missed it--that included those who have done good unto life.

It certainly includes the Christians here:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
See above.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
It has already been pointed out to you according to John 5 how and why the believers already have, a continuing action, eternal life and will not come into the future judgement you insist upon. You have not addressed this point in any way other than to insist upon your misinterpretation of John 5.

I have addressed it on a number of occasions. Those who have faith in Christ won't come into judgment--as far as CONDEMNATION goes:

John 5:24---King James Version

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All will be judged in accordance with their works, nonetheless:

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

That testifies all will be judged according to works--after death--and that for life or damnation.

How do you fit that into faith alone theology?

How does that differ from other testimonies?

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
 

BJ Bear

Well-known member
I have addressed it on a number of occasions. Those who have faith in Christ won't come into judgment--as far as CONDEMNATION goes:

John 5:24---King James Version
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

All will be judged in accordance with their works, nonetheless:.
Hi DB,

It's good to see you are still around and posting.

The section of Scripture from which you are pulling citations is telling us of the true Jesus, read the chapter.

Looking at the first passage you've cited, the one standing before Christ who hears His word and believes on Him who sent Jesus has everlasting life. The verb translated as "has" indicates an ongoing action. The participles translated as "hears" and "believes" tels us about the ongoing action of those who have eternal life, that is, they hear (an ongoing action) His word and believe (an ongoing action) in Him who sent Jesus.

Those whom the true Jesus has given eternal life will not come into judgement or condemnation.

Citing John 5:28, etc., only affirms this since the ones who heard Jesus and believed in the one who sent Him necessarily did good and those that did not necessarily did evil and will raised to damnation.
 
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