Joseph Smith Translation prove Joseph a false Prophet

Elijah the Tishbite

Active member
ANSWERS TO GOSPEL QUESTIONS, VOL. 2

by Joseph Fielding Smith

"Our text says, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father." The apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.



John was one of the men, and apostles declared they were made kings and priests unto God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It reads just so in the Revelation. Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible. It stands beyond the power of controversy. A wayfaring man, though a fool, need not err therein. Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. I want to set it forth in a plain simple manner; but to us there is but one God—that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all. But if Joseph Smith says there are Gods many and Lords many, they cry, "Away with him! Crucify him! Crucify him!" . . .

Notice that his Joseph Smith Translation proves him wrong and tells us Jesus's Father was what Rev 1:6 is referring too
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
ANSWERS TO GOSPEL QUESTIONS, VOL. 2

by Joseph Fielding Smith

"Our text says, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father." The apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.



John was one of the men, and apostles declared they were made kings and priests unto God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It reads just so in the Revelation. Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible. It stands beyond the power of controversy. A wayfaring man, though a fool, need not err therein. Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. I want to set it forth in a plain simple manner; but to us there is but one God—that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all. But if Joseph Smith says there are Gods many and Lords many, they cry, "Away with him! Crucify him! Crucify him!" . . .

Notice that his Joseph Smith Translation proves him wrong and tells us Jesus's Father was what Rev 1:6 is referring too
You lost me. what JST are you referring to?
JST Rev 1:6
6 And unto him who loved us, be glory; who washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion, forever and ever. Amen.

Seems to affirm Joseph's statements, not contradict them.
 

Elijah the Tishbite

Active member
You lost me. what JST are you referring to?
JST Rev 1:6
6 And unto him who loved us, be glory; who washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion, forever and ever. Amen.

Seems to affirm Joseph's statements, not contradict them.

With that in mind, observe that Joseph Smith corrects Revelation 1:6 in the JST to “God, his Father.” Ironically, he got it essentially right, and no wonder, since he seems then (in the early 1830’s) to have been on a push to make sure the Bible was more clearly monotheistic. Contrast the KJV and KJV-based translations with all modern translations. The Greek supports the modern translations, which render it essentially, “priests to his God and Father.” In what is otherwise a disastrous translation, Revelation 1:6 could be a “hit” in the JST worth celebrating. The JST needs all the positive hits it can get, since Smith inserted a prophecy about himself at the end of Genesis, and doesn’t have a good reputation for corroborating with manuscript evidence.

"Our text says, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father." The apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.

NOTE TO ELIJAH--only two links per post, except to other CARM posts or CARM articles.
 
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Aaron32

Well-known member
With that in mind, observe that Joseph Smith corrects Revelation 1:6 in the JST to “God, his Father.” Ironically, he got it essentially right, and no wonder, since he seems then (in the early 1830’s) to have been on a push to make sure the Bible was more clearly monotheistic. Contrast the KJV and KJV-based translations with all modern translations. The Greek supports the modern translations, which render it essentially, “priests to his God and Father.” In what is otherwise a disastrous translation, Revelation 1:6 could be a “hit” in the JST worth celebrating. The JST needs all the positive hits it can get, since Smith inserted a prophecy about himself at the end of Genesis, and doesn’t have a good reputation for corroborating with manuscript evidence.

"Our text says, "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father." The apostles have discovered that there were Gods above, for Paul says God was the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am bold to declare I have taught all the strong doctrines publicly, and always teach stronger doctrines in public than in private.
To be fair, I agree that from an objective standpoint writing in scripture as evidence to support your own "calling" doesn't necessarily winning any favors for JS and IMO he should have left well enough alone, but that's just me.

I suppose some would use cynical enough to use JST Rev 1:6 as evidence that Joseph Smith didn't consider Jesus "God". These Trinity / Monotheism debates are rather dumb since the additional "gods" mormonism adds arent ones being worshipped like Hindu gods are. It's not exactly polytheism in the same sense, and it's dishonest to portray it as such.
If Jesus is God, who existed in pre-mortality, uncreated, just as Joseph Smith says our spirits are uncreated and existed in pre-mortality, AND Jesus has "God" status and we have the capacity to be "joint heirs" with Him, then by default we will become "gods" also.
THe argument hinges on our pre-mortality, and if God is a different species than man - neither of which is explicitly stated in the Bible, but only inferred to depending on which evidence your prefer to look at. So, it's a rather fruitless debate that has existed since the dawn of Christianity. Even the most well known creeds in Christianity recognize how the Godhead is both 3-in-1 is a mystery.
Personally, I tend to believe scrap both traditionally taught Christian and Mormon views and lean more toward Buddism where spiritually we are all one of the same essence (truth/light) just in varying degrees of glory. Those in the terrestrial glory become "one" in heart and mind through the Church, who will eventually become "one" in heart and mind with Christ when He returns, who is "one" with His Father.
 

Elijah the Tishbite

Active member
To be fair, I agree that from an objective standpoint writing in scripture as evidence to support your own "calling" doesn't necessarily winning any favors for JS and IMO he should have left well enough alone, but that's just me.

I suppose some would use cynical enough to use JST Rev 1:6 as evidence that Joseph Smith didn't consider Jesus "God". These Trinity / Monotheism debates are rather dumb since the additional "gods" mormonism adds arent ones being worshipped like Hindu gods are. It's not exactly polytheism in the same sense, and it's dishonest to portray it as such.
If Jesus is God, who existed in pre-mortality, uncreated, just as Joseph Smith says our spirits are uncreated and existed in pre-mortality, AND Jesus has "God" status and we have the capacity to be "joint heirs" with Him, then by default we will become "gods" also.
THe argument hinges on our pre-mortality, and if God is a different species than man - neither of which is explicitly stated in the Bible, but only inferred to depending on which evidence your prefer to look at. So, it's a rather fruitless debate that has existed since the dawn of Christianity. Even the most well known creeds in Christianity recognize how the Godhead is both 3-in-1 is a mystery.
Personally, I tend to believe scrap both traditionally taught Christian and Mormon views and lean more toward Buddism where spiritually we are all one of the same essence (truth/light) just in varying degrees of glory. Those in the terrestrial glory become "one" in heart and mind through the Church, who will eventually become "one" in heart and mind with Christ when He returns, who is "one" with His Father.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...n-contains-the-fulness-of-the-gospel?lang=eng

The Book of Mormon clearly doesn't teach pre-mortal life or Jesus is the Firstborn son of God the Father in the Pre-existence
 

Elijah the Tishbite

Active member
Pearl Of Great Price

34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

Introduction of Book of Mormon
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Pearl Of Great Price

34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

Introduction of Book of Mormon
If the BoM has the fulness of the everlasting Gospel in it, why aren't the temples and the endowment taught in it? Or the three levels of heaven?
 

Richard7

Well-known member
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...n-contains-the-fulness-of-the-gospel?lang=eng

The Book of Mormon clearly doesn't teach pre-mortal life or Jesus is the Firstborn son of God the Father in the Pre-existence



“Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do.” (3 Ne. 27:19–21.)

The essentials of the “fulness of the gospel” are contained in this one brief statement of the Book of Mormon, although they are also discussed in greater detail throughout this sacred scripture. In these verses, the Book of Mormon clearly emphasizes and explains the doctrine of the Atonement and the basic principles and ordinances of the gospel.

Same source you used...
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
“Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do.” (3 Ne. 27:19–21.)

The essentials of the “fulness of the gospel” are contained in this one brief statement of the Book of Mormon, although they are also discussed in greater detail throughout this sacred scripture. In these verses, the Book of Mormon clearly emphasizes and explains the doctrine of the Atonement and the basic principles and ordinances of the gospel.

Same source you used...
Just more evidence that works are required to activate Christ’s atonement in mormonism.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Just more evidence that works are required to activate Christ’s atonement in mormonism.

Chuckle... so you say mormonism preaches works... love to see you backpedal on this one...


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do.” (3 Ne. 27:19–21.)



John 14:12, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Chuckle... so you say mormonism preaches works... love to see you backpedal on this one...


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do.” (3 Ne. 27:19–21.)



John 14:12, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Of course we try to follow His example. Christians are always doing good works. The difference is we don’t do them to obtain salvation. Or exaltation. Those who have had their hearts changed by Christ’s love and gift of eternal life, do good out of love, gratitude and compassion.

Eph. 2:2 “And you were dead in your offenses and sins,
2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Of course we try to follow His example. Christians are always doing good works. The difference is we don’t do them to obtain salvation. Or exaltation. Those who have had their hearts changed by Christ’s love and gift of eternal life, do good out of love, gratitude and compassion.

Eph. 2:2 “And you were dead in your offenses and sins,
2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
But the reality is that if you stopped your good works, if you stopped that godly walk, you would no longer have salvation - unless your promoting OSAS.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
But the reality is that if you stopped your good works, if you stopped that godly walk, you would no longer have salvation - unless your promoting OSAS.
Why would you stop, when your motivation is the love and compassion of Christ? If you need to be motivated to act with compassion because of rewards you might get, that’s not a change of heart.
 

Richard7

Well-known member
Of course we try to follow His example. Christians are always doing good works. The difference is we don’t do them to obtain salvation. Or exaltation. Those who have had their hearts changed by Christ’s love and gift of eternal life, do good out of love, gratitude and compassion.
That is your own insertion for the scripture does not say only out of love and gratitude... he says even greater works which means he was talking more about miracles, healing the sick and afflicted, gathering Israel, etc. etc. How do you figure that love, gratitude and compassion are even greater works then even Christ Performed... you do simplify the scriptures by limiting greater works just doing good works...

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church;
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
That is your own insertion for the scripture does not say only out of love and gratitude... he says even greater works which means he was talking more about miracles, healing the sick and afflicted, gathering Israel, etc. etc. How do you figure that love, gratitude and compassion are even greater works then even Christ Performed... you do simplify the scriptures by limiting greater works just doing good works...

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church;
Love, gratitude and compassion are the results of a changed heart. That’s the motivation to act with compassion, which is what Christ asked us to do.

Do you really have a sincerely compassionate heart, or do you just comply because you want the rewards. Christ looks for what’s in your heart.
 

Elijah the Tishbite

Active member
That is your own insertion for the scripture does not say only out of love and gratitude... he says even greater works which means he was talking more about miracles, healing the sick and afflicted, gathering Israel, etc. etc. How do you figure that love, gratitude and compassion are even greater works then even Christ Performed... you do simplify the scriptures by limiting greater works just doing good works...

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church;

The Gospel is what Jesus has done

1 Cor 15:1-5

15 Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
NIV
 
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