Just a poll...interested in what you think.

[Oldsaint24]

The question is......Do you think these "many" think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Now we don't know what they actually think about their personal theology. The text does not get that explicit. I am just curious what folks here think.

Here's the "many" I am referring to........

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day MANY will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Matt. 7

They emphatically claim Jesus is their "Lord".
The think they are doing all kinds of things in "the name of Jesus".

Again, the question is........Do you think these MANY think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In my opinion.....yes.

What say you?

 

[TomFL]

The question is......Do you think these "many" think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Now we don't know what they actually think about their personal theology. The text does not get that explicit. I am just curious what folks here think.

Here's the "many" I am referring to........

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day MANY will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Matt. 7

They emphatically claim Jesus is their "Lord".
The think they are doing all kinds of things in "the name of Jesus".

Again, the question is........Do you think these MANY think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In my opinion.....yes.

What say you?

Yes agree

 

[Septextura]

Seriously, any of these will do. Why must you push Millennial Exclusion in the Arminianism vs Calvinism forum?

Bible Questions and Discussion

Doctrine Questions

Eschatology

Other Topics/Questions

Theology Questions

 

[Our Lord's God]

The question is......Do you think these "many" think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Now we don't know what they actually think about their personal theology. The text does not get that explicit. I am just curious what folks here think.

Here's the "many" I am referring to........

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day MANY will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Matt. 7

They emphatically claim Jesus is their "Lord".
The think they are doing all kinds of things in "the name of Jesus".

Again, the question is........Do you think these MANY think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In my opinion.....yes.

What say you?

They pretend to have the Holy Spirit because they don't know what else to do. So they delude themselves.

Only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom and Jesus had just spent two chapters telling you what the will of the Father is.

"My teaching is not mine but His who sent me" John 7:16

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ 24 “THEREFORE everyone who hears these words of mine and DOES them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

 

[Oldsaint24]

Seriously, any of these will do. Why must you push Millennial Exclusion in the Arminianism vs Calvinism forum?

Bible Questions and Discussion

Doctrine Questions

Eschatology

Other Topics/Questions

Theology Questions

Cause their theology is in error on this point.....and I am sent by the Father to tell them.

 

[civic]

The question is......Do you think these "many" think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Now we don't know what they actually think about their personal theology. The text does not get that explicit. I am just curious what folks here think.

Here's the "many" I am referring to........

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day MANY will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Matt. 7

They emphatically claim Jesus is their "Lord".
The think they are doing all kinds of things in "the name of Jesus".

Again, the question is........Do you think these MANY think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In my opinion.....yes.

What say you?

No why would they think so ?

Where does the text imply they think they have the spirit of God in them and that they are born again ?

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.
A good tree bears good fruit.

No fruit, no root.

The fruit of the spirit is only seen in those who have the spirit of God in them. Read Galatians 5:22-23.

You are very confused about Gods indwelling Holy Spirit where one becomes a new creation in Christ and they now understand the things of the spirit as per 1 Cor 2.

next...........................

hope this helps !!!

 

[ReverendRV]

The question is......Do you think these "many" think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Now we don't know what they actually think about their personal theology. The text does not get that explicit. I am just curious what folks here think.

Here's the "many" I am referring to........

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day MANY will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Matt. 7

They emphatically claim Jesus is their "Lord".
The think they are doing all kinds of things in "the name of Jesus".

Again, the question is........Do you think these MANY think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In my opinion.....yes.

What say you?

There's a good chance that they did think they were Indwelt by the Holy Ghost because they thought all this other stuff; but like you said, we don't know. Since we don't know, there's just as good a chance that we'll read our presuppositions into the text to the point we begin to Eisegete it. We can't know they thought they were Indwelt through Exegesis though...

 

[Oldsaint24]

No why would they think so ?

Where does the text imply they think they have the spirit of God in them and that they are born again ?

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.
A good tree bears good fruit.

No fruit, no root.

The fruit of the spirit is only seen in those who have the spirit of God in them. Read Galatians 5:22-23.

You are very confused about Gods indwelling Holy Spirit where one becomes a new creation in Christ and they now understand the things of the spirit as per 1 Cor 2.

next...........................

hope this helps !!!

Brother Civic, you need to start using some sound reason and logic, some spiritual discernment.. These "many" are/were children of God.

Unregenerate children of men do not go excitedly up to Jesus and call Him, "Lord, Lord!"
Unregenerate children of men do not go around thinking they are performing miracles in the name of Jesus.
Unregenerate children of men do not go to prayer meetings and prophesy in the name of Jesus.
Unregenerate children of men do not go around and cast out demons in the name of Jesus.
Deceived children of God will do those things and actually think they were doing it.

Divine fact: these children of God who thought they were Christians, were not Christians.
Divine fact: these children of God were NOT Christians because they did NOT have the abiding presence, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Divine fact: these children of God were disobedient, foolish, lawless children of God.

And Jesus concludes that these many are not indwelled with His Spirit, He says, "Therefore, whosoever hears these sayings of mine and DOES them......" and again, "And every one that hears these sayings of Mine, and DOES THEM NOT......."

This is not about "faith in Jesus". This is about HEARING AND DOING the righteous works Jesus commands the children to do.
Did you notice Jesus saying "hearing" and "doing"???

Divine fact: the unregenerate children of men cannot hear the words of Jesus.
Divine fact: the unregenerate children of men do not do the works of Jesus or think they are doing the works of Jesus..
Divine fact: children of God are able to be either wise or foolish children.
Divine fact: a Christian is a child of God who has the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Divine fact: many children of God think they are Christians , but are not.

 

[zerinus]

Brother Civic, you need to start using some sound reason and logic, some spiritual discernment.. These "many" are/were children of God.

Unregenerate children of men do not go excitedly up to Jesus and call Him, "Lord, Lord!"
Unregenerate children of men do not go around thinking they are performing miracles in the name of Jesus.
Unregenerate children of men do not go to prayer meetings and prophesy in the name of Jesus.
Unregenerate children of men do not go around and cast out demons in the name of Jesus.
Deceived children of God will do those things and actually think they were doing it.

Divine fact: these children of God who thought they were Christians, were not Christians.
Divine fact: these children of God were NOT Christians because they did NOT have the abiding presence, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Divine fact: these children of God were disobedient, foolish, lawless children of God.

And Jesus concludes that these many are not indwelled with His Spirit, He says, "Therefore, whosoever hears these sayings of mine and DOES them......" and again, "And every one that hears these sayings of Mine, and DOES THEM NOT......."

This is not about "faith in Jesus". This is about HEARING AND DOING the righteous works Jesus commands the children to do.
Did you notice Jesus saying "hearing" and "doing"???

Divine fact: the unregenerate children of men cannot hear the words of Jesus.
Divine fact: the unregenerate children of men do not do the works of Jesus or think they are doing the works of Jesus..
Divine fact: children of God are able to be either wise or foolish children.
Divine fact: a Christian is a child of God who has the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Divine fact: many children of God think they are Christians , but are not.

I don't think that you have correctly understood Matt. 7:21-7 either. Most Evangelicals don't. Those people whom Jesus is referring to in those verses, had actually believed in Jesus at one time, and actually had genuine faith. And those were genuine miracles that they had been able to perform by their faith. But afterwards they had fallen into transgression and were lost. The lesson of the story is the importance of keeping the commandments of God to be saved. The message Jesus is trying to teach is that no matter how faithful and believing you may have been at one time, and no matter how great a faith you may have had, so as to have been able to perform all of those great miracles, if you don't remain faithful, and fall into transgression at a later stage, and fail to keep the commandments of God (i.e. endure to the end), you cannot be saved. That is the lesson that Jesus is trying to teach in that scripture.

 

[Oldsaint24]

I don't think that you have correctly understood Matt. 7:21-7 either. Most Evangelicals don't. Those people whom Jesus is referring to in those verses, had actually believed in Jesus at one time, and actually had genuine faith. And those were genuine miracles that they had been able to perform by their faith. But afterwards they had fallen into transgression and were lost. The lesson of the story is the importance of keeping the commandments of God to be saved. The message Jesus is trying to teach is that no matter how faithful and believing you may have been at one time, and no matter how great a faith you may have had, so as to have been able to perform all of those great miracles, if you don't remain faithful, and fall into transgression at a later stage, and fail to keep the commandments of God (i.e. endure to the end), you cannot be saved. That is the lesson that Jesus is trying to teach in that scripture.

Not correct. Not possible. Jesus making. The comment "I NEVER knew you" . Makes your understanding impossible. Jesus would have known them. My understanding stands.

 

[JDS]

The question is......Do you think these "many" think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Now we don't know what they actually think about their personal theology. The text does not get that explicit. I am just curious what folks here think.

Here's the "many" I am referring to........

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day MANY will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Matt. 7

They emphatically claim Jesus is their "Lord".
The think they are doing all kinds of things in "the name of Jesus".

Again, the question is........Do you think these MANY think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In my opinion.....yes.

What say you?

No, this passage has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. The context is the sermon on the mount. It is a purely Jewish context. The Jews would know exactly what Jesus was referring to when he said “that day.” This is in the “kingdom” context. “That day” was one of 4 major themes that runs through the OT scripture and now in the NT scriptures. It is always future. It looks forward to a conclusion. A sabbath rest. The end of a week. It is “The Day of the Lord.” This phrase is found a total of 30 times in I think without checking myself, 17 books of the Bible. Thirty is God’s number for maturity. The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was talking about because they knew what the OT scripture said. Apparently many of us do not. Learn it and you can then teach others.

Context is our friend.

 

[Oldsaint24]

No, this passage has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. The context is the sermon on the mount. It is a purely Jewish context. The Jews would know exactly what Jesus was referring to when he said “that day.” This is in the “kingdom” context. “That day” was one of 4 major themes that runs through the OT scripture and now in the NT scriptures. It is always future. It looks forward to a conclusion. A sabbath rest. The end of a week. It is “The Day of the Lord.” This phrase is found a total of 30 times in I think without checking myself, 17 books of the Bible. Thirty is God’s number for maturity. The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was talking about because they knew what the OT scripture said. Apparently many of us do not. Learn it and you can then teach others.

Context is our friend.

First of all, this is just a little poll to see what other think about these "many"....whether or not the many "think" they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Simple as that.
This not a "Jewish" thing going on here or concerning what Jesus was speaking about. I think we are in agreement the "many" He is talking about is at the end time.
Yes, context is our friend....so per the poll.....using all the context available.....do you think the "many" think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In other words....if you and I were to go to these many and tell them, that Jesus does not even know them, that they do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that they are and have been living unrighteous, lawless lives......What do you think they would say to us?

From experience, they would probable call us liars, children of the devil, false prophets, hypocrites, heretics, etc. That is what I think they would say.
What do you say?

 

[zerinus]

Not correct. Not possible. Jesus making. The comment "I NEVER knew you" . Makes your understanding impossible. Jesus would have known them. My understanding stands.

“I never knew you” is simply a term of condemnation. It means, “I don't recognize you as my follower, or my disciple”. Jesus is divine. He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He knows all the sinners and devils in hell, as well as all the saints and angels in heaven. There is nobody in the universe whom he doesn't “know” literally. “I never knew you” is simply a term of condemnation. It doesn't mean that he literally and physically never “knew” them. But if you study the entire passage carefully, primarily verses 21-27, and take the entire context into account, it becomes obvious that the primary focus of his teaching is the importance of keeping the commandments of God to be saved. The condemnation of those whom he is speaking of was that they had failed to obey, to do what he says, or keep his commandments. It wasn't the “lack of faith” that they were being condemned for. They had had enough “faith” to perform miracles in his name. Their failure had been in lack of obedience, not faith.

 

[Oldsaint24]

“I never knew you” is simply a term of condemnation. It means, “I don't recognize you as my follower, or my disciple”. Jesus is divine. He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He knows all the sinners and devils in hell, as well as all the saints and angels in heaven. There is nobody in the universe whom he doesn't “know” literally. “I never knew you” is simply a term of condemnation. It doesn't mean that he literally and physically never “knew” them. But if you study the entire passage carefully, primarily verses 21-27, and take the entire context into account, it becomes obvious that the primary focus of his teaching is the importance of keeping the commandments of God to be saved. The condemnation of those whom he is speaking of was that they had failed to obey, to do what he says, or keep his commandments. It wasn't the “lack of faith” that they were being condemned for. They had had enough “faith” to perform miracles in his name. Their failure had been in lack of obedience, not faith.

Of course Jesus knew them, He knew they were lawless......He is God. We agree on this point. But that was not the point of the statement, "I never knew you." The "I never knew you" was addressing the lack of an intimate relationship with them ie. the Holy Spirit NEVER had abided within them.
That is the truth of the statement , "I never knew you!".
And yes, they "failed to obey, to do what he says, or keep his commandments". Obviously they had been deceived (probably by false doctrine) and did not believe they were lawless children of God. Could have easily been Calvinists.

 

[zerinus]

Of course Jesus knew them, He knew they were lawless......He is God. We agree on this point. But that was not the point of the statement, "I never knew you." The "I never knew you" was addressing the lack of an intimate relationship with them ie. the Holy Spirit NEVER had abided within them.
That is the truth of the statement , "I never knew you!".
And yes, they "failed to obey, to do what he says, or keep his commandments". Obviously they had been deceived (probably by false doctrine) and did not believe they were lawless children of God. Could have easily been Calvinists.

Most likely Calvinists, LOL! However, those guys whom Jesus was referring to, had had enough faith to perform miracles in his name, and then had fallen into transgression. I don't know of any Calvinist who is or has been able to perform miracles in the name of Jesus.

 

[JDS]

In other words....if you and I were to go to these many and tell them, that Jesus does not even know them, that they do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that they are and have been living unrighteous, lawless lives......What do you think they would say to us?

My answer to the polling question is no.

My answer to the other question, if it is strictly in the context of the Holy Spirit, need some context to answer properly. You seem to be assuming that absent the Holy Spirit, men must be living unrighteousness and lawless lives. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

When Jesus spoke these words to these Jews in Matthew 7 nary a one of them knew anything about the Holy Spirit. Therefore, if he expected his speaking to make sense to them his words could not have been in the context of the Holy Spirit. Some 25 years later Paul met some righteous God fearing Jews and the conversation went like this.

Acts 19:1-7
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

 

[Manfred]

The question is......Do you think these "many" think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Now we don't know what they actually think about their personal theology. The text does not get that explicit. I am just curious what folks here think.

Here's the "many" I am referring to........

Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day MANY will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'" Matt. 7

They emphatically claim Jesus is their "Lord".
The think they are doing all kinds of things in "the name of Jesus".

Again, the question is........Do you think these MANY think they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

In my opinion.....yes.

What say you?

Definitely no!

Do you think you are KNOWN by Christ if His Spirit indwells you?
A very personal agape relationship.

Why would He say get away from me for I NEVER KNEW you.

 

[zerinus]

Definitely no!

Do you think you are KNOWN by Christ if His Spirit indwells you?
A very personal agape relationship.

Why would He say get away from me for I NEVER KNEW you.

Or maybe they did have the Spirit of God dwelling in them at one time, which is how they had been able to perform miracles in his name; but afterwards when they had transgressed, that Spirit had departed from them, according to these verses:

1 Corinthians 3:

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Having the Spirit of God is no guarantee it will always stay there, regardless of what we do. Here is another good scripture:

1 John 3:

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Keeping the commandments of God is an essential prerequisite for retaining his Spirit. Once that is lost, retaining the Spirit is also lost. Here is another:

Genesis 6:

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The Spirit of God “strives” with man up to a point. Once a certain limit is reached, the Spirit is withdrawn, and the man is left to his own destruction.

 

[JDS]

Or maybe they did have the Spirit of God dwelling in them at one time, which is how they had been able to perform miracles in his name; but afterwards when they had transgressed, that Spirit had departed from them, according to these verses:

1 Corinthians 3:

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Having the Spirit of God is no guarantee it will always stay there, regardless of what we do. Here is another good scripture:

1 John 3:

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Keeping the commandments of God is an essential prerequisite for retaining his Spirit. Once that is lost, retaining the Spirit is also lost. Here is another:

Genesis 6:

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The Spirit of God “strives” with man up to a point. Once a certain limit is reached, the Spirit is withdrawn, and the man is left to his own destruction.

Matthew 7 has absolutely nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. The operative phrase in the words of Jesus is "in that day." This is a prophecy concerning the nation, the people, not the individual. None of them have the Holy Spirit in them when these miracles are being performed and these miracle are not from God and they are not real. They are lying wonders from Satan and his host.

This passage is not about you or your kin.

 

[zerinus]

Matthew 7 has absolutely nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. The operative phrase in the words of Jesus is "in that day." This is a prophecy concerning the nation, the people, not the individual. None of them have the Holy Spirit in them when these miracles are being performed and these miracle are not from God and they are not real. They are lying wonders from Satan and his host.

I have to completely disagree. The Holy Spirit is not directly relevant to the content, but indirectly there is some relevance; and more importantly, and more directly relevant to the context, “in that day” refers to judgement day, when the dead will be raised to life, and judged according to their works. The phrase “that day” is used by Jesus numerous times to refer more or less to the same thing. See Matt. 24:36; 26:29; Mark 13:32; 14:25; Luke 10:12; 17:31; 21:34.

This passage is not about you or your kin.

No idea what that is supposed to mean.