Just punishment for sin.

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
It's not supposed to demonstrate the reality of ANY god.
It's only evidence of YHVH. It's an historical fact. It doesn't require your agreement, permission, assent, etc.....
It simply is.
It's not evidence of the existence of any god.

It's quite alright if you're not interested in believing what is true. The choice is entirely yours.
Ad hominem; worthless except as an example of your inability to communicate with those who disagree with you.

Nor am I surprised by your whining.
My question is
Are you ever going to grow up and become an adult or is childish whining going to remain your default fallback position?
Ad hominem; worthless except as an example of your inability to communicate with those who disagree with you.

Then you never did it the way the bible describes it.
Still wrong.

The excuses you're giving here won't fly on judgment day.
Threats still don't work.

That's your problem.
You've provided zero evidence that there is any problem at all.

don't need to convince you. None of us do. All we need to do is to present you with the gospel of Jesus and what you do with it is 100% your own responsibility.
All of us can walk away right now, and according to Ezekiel 33, your blood is on your own shoulers.
When we stand before God and he asks what we did regarding you, we can answer with a clear conscience that we told you about Jesus and he will know.
Great. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I never said anything about your intelligence.
I'm sure you actually have a much higher IQ than I do.
The gospel isn't about IQ.
It's about ego.

Ignorance is the lack of knowledge. It could be as simple as just never hearing.

Stupidity could very well be extensive knowledge and refusal to do anything with the knowledge you possess.

The foolish people described in the bible are stupid because they rejected the truth.

They preferred deliberate and willful ignorance.

So...

If you actually want to be stupid, that's your choice.

Just say so and we'll put you on ignore and never engage you again.
More preaching. Yawn.

As for 'we' - do you have a mouse in your pocket?

Do you actually want to know God and make their acquaintance, or just have someone tell you words that you'll never actually follow through with?
Already repeatedly answered.

Don't whine, just answer the question.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
It's not evidence of the existence of any god.
You know...

It's said that Einstein stated that trying the same thing over and over and over again expecting different results is the definition of Insanity.
How often do you think you can say that and get the results you want?

Ad hominem; worthless except as an example of your inability to communicate with those who disagree with you.
I communicate just fine.
I see however you're having a problem.
It's a simple enough question.
Are you actually unable to answer it?



Ad hominem; worthless except as an example of your inability to communicate with those who disagree with you.
Same as above.
It's a simple question. Are you not able to answer it?

Still wrong.
Well, as you're not actually able to explain why, I'll stick with what I stated.
Let me know when you actually have an explanation.

Threats still don't work.
Let me guess...

If someone were to warn you that the bridge on the road you're driving on is out, and that the road crew was on the way, you'd be offended and felt like they were threatening you?
Or a doctor who told you, following an examination that you had cancer and would be dead in a few days would be threatening you!

As I have repeatedly said before.....

It's entirely on you.
So, the only threat is to your ego, and how you want to perceive it.


You've provided zero evidence that there is any problem at all.
You've made it quite clear that you don't actually want any evidence. You just want to argue.
I understand that there's a wall along your property.
Go talk with the wall, and tell me how well your debate went.


Great. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
🤣
Not particularly concerned about it.

More preaching. Yawn.
Astonishing how you view common sense as preaching.
I'd say that you have just corroborated that this is an ego issue. Congratulations!


As for 'we' - do you have a mouse in your pocket?
Why, would that make you feel better?



Already repeatedly answered.
So, you don't actually want to know God and just have a novel word salad to know that someone whom you've never met, and don't actually want to meet exists.

Very well then.

FWIW, there is no argument, no debate, no collection of words that will ever convince you that YHVH is real and knowable.

It's only when you do what Jesus said will you learn. And failure to do so before you die will result in that place you feel threatened by.
 

Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
You know...

It's said that Einstein stated that trying the same thing over and over and over again expecting different results is the definition of Insanity.
How often do you think you can say that and get the results you want?

I communicate just fine.
I see however you're having a problem.
It's a simple enough question.
Are you actually unable to answer it?

Same as above.
It's a simple question. Are you not able to answer it?

Well, as you're not actually able to explain why, I'll stick with what I stated.
Let me know when you actually have an explanation.

Let me guess...

If someone were to warn you that the bridge on the road you're driving on is out, and that the road crew was on the way, you'd be offended and felt like they were threatening you?
Or a doctor who told you, following an examination that you had cancer and would be dead in a few days would be threatening you!

As I have repeatedly said before.....

It's entirely on you.
So, the only threat is to your ego, and how you want to perceive it.

You've made it quite clear that you don't actually want any evidence. You just want to argue.
I understand that there's a wall along your property.
Go talk with the wall, and tell me how well your debate went.

🤣
Not particularly concerned about it.
Astonishing how you view common sense as preaching.
I'd say that you have just corroborated that this is an ego issue. Congratulations!

Why, would that make you feel better?

So, you don't actually want to know God and just have a novel word salad to know that someone whom you've never met, and don't actually want to meet exists.

Very well then.

FWIW, there is no argument, no debate, no collection of words that will ever convince you that YHVH is real and knowable.

It's only when you do what Jesus said will you learn. And failure to do so before you die will result in that place you feel threatened by.
The usual falsehoods, half-truths, irrelevancies, and non-sequiturs. Further evidencing not only are you incapable of actually communicating with atheists, but that you have no interest in doing so.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
This is a very simple concept.
People who refuse to worship God want nothing to do with him.
Do you accept the following disctinction:

1. People that believe your god exists, but want nothing to do with him because they don't like him, and
2. People that don't believe your god exists, and can't want anything to do with him because logic

?

If you do, do you think it fair that he, if he exists, is fair in dealing with the two in the same manner?
Is it fair to punish the child that hears and disregards a parent's instruction the same way as the child that never heard it from the parent's mouth?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Do you accept the following disctinction:
You're already starting off on the wrong foot.

It's got absolutely nothing to do with what I accept or not regarding your state before YHVH.

Your state before YHVH is between us as individuals and him, through Jesus Christ.



1. People that believe your god exists, but want nothing to do with him because they don't like him, and
2. People that don't believe your god exists, and can't want anything to do with him because logic

?
You're not even in the same ballpark.
Probably not even on the same planet.


If you do, do you think it fair that he, if he exists, is fair in dealing with the two in the same manner?
You've chosen the wrong manner of viewing this issue.

He's explicitly stated that he will give us a heart to know him.
He's further stated that in the day that we seek him with a whole heart, we'd find him.
Jesus said that he will welcome everyone who comes to him and won't turn away anyone.
So, dump your preconceptions and come follow Jesus.
He'll make himself knowable to you if you keep his teachings. Furthermore, he said if you keep his teachings, you will be loved by God and both YHVH and Jesus will come make their home with you.

Is it fair to punish the child that hears and disregards a parent's instruction the same way as the child that never heard it from the parent's mouth?
You're talking about something else entirely.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Your state before YHVH is between us as individuals and him, through Jesus Christ.
What if my state is

"I genuinely - with no motive - did not see enough of a reason to believe that he exists, or to go looking for him, or that I needed saving from hell, or that hell even exists"

?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
What if my state is

"I genuinely - with no motive - did not see enough of a reason to believe that he exists, or to go looking for him, or that I needed saving from hell, or that hell even exists"

?
In my physics program, the department chair once told us that people would come to him and claim that they could definitively prove that there was no such thing as physics.
At one point, I'd also ran across people who claimed that gravity didn't actually exist.

So, I'm curious....

Since you don't believe, do you think that you are going to escape the consequences?

After all, if agravity believers believe that because there's no gravity, surely they will be freed from the consequences of ignoring gravity, right?

Back in the 80's I recall hearing stories about people who are blind who refused to believe that color actually existed.

Do you think that their acolorism will exclude them from the reality of color?
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Since you don't believe, do you think that you are going to escape the consequences?
What consequences? The ones I don't believe in?

Do you really think atheists think the following:

"If I don't believe in hell, maybe I will go out of going there"

?
After all, if agravity believers believe that because there's no gravity, surely they will be freed from the consequences of ignoring gravity, right?
We have plenty of confirmation of the consequences of gravity.
None whatsoever of dying unrepentant.
Back in the 80's I recall hearing stories about people who are blind who refused to believe that color actually existed.
Unless colour can be demonstrated by some means that applies to them, they are completely justified in refusing to believe in it.
True isn't always reasonable, and reasonable isn't always true.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
What consequences? The ones I don't believe in?
The consequences which will take place if you refuse to believe in Jesus, and follow him.

The irony is that it doesn't matter one iota if you don't believe in the consequences.
You're not being asked to believe in consequences.
They're coming, regardless.
We're being invited to escape them, by placing our trust in Jesus and following him.

Failure to engage him on his terms and follow him guarantee that you will face those consequences.

So,
Since you don't believe, do you think that you are going to escape the consequences?

Do you really think atheists think the following:

"If I don't believe in hell, maybe I will go out of going there"

?
I think, based on well over several decades of experience that atheists are exactly as described in the bible.
Thick-headed, dull-witted, convinced of their own superiority, and confident that nothing they don't want to know about won't affect them.


We have plenty of confirmation of the consequences of gravity.
None whatsoever of dying unrepentant.
You missed it.
Death is the consequence.
Death is the separation between body and soul. Spiritual death occurs when you are cut off from God because of your sin.
This is exactly why Jesus.
To restore us to spiritual life.


Unless colour can be demonstrated by some means that applies to them, they are completely justified in refusing to believe in it.
True isn't always reasonable, and reasonable isn't always true.
Bingo!

So, why would you choose reasonable when such reasonability goes against the truth?

The truth is that you are dying from your sin and placing your trust in Jesus is the only way to escape death.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
You missed it.
Death is the consequence.
As far as we can tell, Christians die exactly the same way non-Christians do.
Repenting doesn't seem to stop one from dying.
Death is the separation between body and soul. Spiritual death occurs when you are cut off from God because of your sin.
I don't believe in souls, either; I think that life and consciousness ends when the body dies.
Do I believe that this believe will get me out of hell? If hell is real, no, it won't.
So, why would you choose reasonable when such reasonability goes against the truth?
Because I don't think it's true.
And given the choice between a reasonable "maybe" and an unreasonable "maybe", the reasonable "maybe" wins.
For me, anyway.
The truth is that you are dying from your sin and placing your trust in Jesus is the only way to escape death.
Do you think this is the first time I've heard this?
Did you think that telling me this would convince me of it?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
As far as we can tell, Christians die exactly the same way non-Christians do.
Repenting doesn't seem to stop one from dying.
You're still missing it.

I don't believe in souls, either; I think that life and consciousness ends when the body dies.
Do I believe that this believe will get me out of hell? If hell is real, no, it won't.
You're still missing it.

I previously explained to you that it's immaterial that you don't believe in certain things.

You can believe that you're an insect for all it matters.
The fact of the matter is that Jesus died to pay the penalty for your sin against God. God raised him from the dead to justify all who believe him.

If you don't believe that you are a human being then you exclude yourself from following Jesus. If you change what being human is, you exclude yourself from knowing God and corrupt yourself from what you really are.

I.e., going back to the question I previously stated.
Do you believe that if you change what you don't want to actually know/be, it'll exclude you from experiencing the consequences for your beliefs?




Because I don't think it's true.
In other words, you believe that as long as you don't believe something is true, you'll exclude yourself from experiencing the consequences of your beliefs.


And given the choice between a reasonable "maybe" and an unreasonable "maybe", the reasonable "maybe" wins.
In other words, as long as you believe what you think is reasonable, you're ready, willing and able to send yourself to an eternity of abject misery and agony just so you can appear to others that you're smart, and reasonable, even though God has explicitly stated that the people who think this way are fools.

Scripture doesn’t limit its reasons against sin to “just because it’s wrong.” It also includes “because it’s stupid” since sin’s consequences are so severe. “For the simple are killed by their turning away, and the complacency of fools destroys them; but whoever listens to me will dwell secure and will be at ease, without dread of disaster” (Proverbs 1:32-33, ESV).

Your belief that you don't actually believe these things are true just guarantees their occurrence in your life.

For me, anyway.
Guarantee it!


Do you think this is the first time I've heard this?
Not likely. Otherwise you wouldn't be acting in so cocky and arrogant a manner as you are.
But, even the fool wakes up at some point... for your sake I hope it happens before you die.


Did you think that telling me this would convince me of it?
I'm simply asking questions about how you view reality that you have stated can't impact you because you don't believe reality is actually real.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
Do you believe that if you change what you don't want to actually know/be, it'll exclude you from experiencing the consequences for your beliefs?
No - if I have a soul, and there is a hell that I don't believe in, my soul will go there.
I don't know how this fact is supposed to affect my position on souls and hell...
In other words, you believe that as long as you don't believe something is true, you'll exclude yourself from experiencing the consequences of your beliefs.
Wrong; the consequences are independent of my beliefs.
Again, though, I don't know how this fact is supposed to affect my position.
I'm simply asking questions about how you view reality that you have stated can't impact you because you don't believe reality is actually real.
I've stated twice in this reply that reality affects us regardless of our beliefs.
Do you think this fact is supposed to make me believe anything I don't already? I'm still not sure what point you're driving at.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
No - if I have a soul, and there is a hell that I don't believe in, my soul will go there.
According to the prophets, Jesus and the book of Revelation, your body will join your soul, and you'll be there forever.
In Daniel we read,
Dan 12:2 WEB Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Unless you turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus, this will be your eternity.

It's why we engage you.
We understood before we came what you thought about YHVH. The details may have varied, but the basic concepts were identical and have remained consistent.


I don't know how this fact is supposed to affect my position on souls and hell...
How it affects your position is entirely up to you.
Our job is to simply make it clear what the truth is and what you can do to change your mind before you die.



Wrong; the consequences are independent of my beliefs.
Indeed. Which begs the question of why you would want to deliberately ignore the issues.


Again, though, I don't know how this fact is supposed to affect my position.
How it affects your position is entirely up to you.
Our job is to simply make it clear what the truth is and what you can do to change your mind before you die.



I've stated twice in this reply that reality affects us regardless of our beliefs.
Good. As long as you actually understand this!

Your posts up until now have made it pretty clear that you believed you could escape the consequences and culpability as long as you didn't believe something that is true.


Do you think this fact is supposed to make me believe anything I don't already?
I think that you have to have a more accurate understanding about the truth so you can choose what you want to believe and know.

God has made it quite clear that your having a choice in the matter of your eternal destiny is extremely important to him.




I'm still not sure what point you're driving at.
Just what I've stated.

That you have a better understanding of your eternal state, and the options given to you.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
It's why we engage you.
But you don't engage; you speak, then wait for your turn to speak again.

You repeatedly ignore what we say about ourselves - we tell you what we think and why we think it, but you dismiss it. What you do in here is the internet equivalent of walking around with a sandwich board.
Indeed. Which begs the question of why you would want to deliberately ignore the issues.
What issues?
Your posts up until now have made it pretty clear that you believed you could escape the consequences and culpability as long as you didn't believe something that is true.
If you would like me to cite each and every instance where I said this was NOT the case, I will.
Because there have been a LOT of them.

Here it is again, in bold:
I do not believe that my lack of belief in hell will, if hell is real, excuse me from it

If you state one more time that I do, I will know you are either too stupid to engage further, too dismissive to engage further, or a troll.
I think that you have to have a more accurate understanding about the truth so you can choose what you want to believe and know.
I can't choose what to believe; I am convinced of things despite my will, not because of it.
That you have a better understanding of your eternal state, and the options given to you.
I do not believe I will have an eternal state.
But, since this is an atheist talking about himself, I have little doubt that it will be ignored.
 
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Electric Skeptic

Well-known member
But you don't engage; you speak, then wait for your turn to speak again.

You repeatedly ignore what we say about ourselves - we tell you what we think and why we think it, but you dismiss it. What you do in here is the internet equivalent of walking around with a sandwich board.

What issues?

If you would like me to cite each and every instance where I said this was NOT the case, I will.
Because there have been a LOT of them.

Here it is again, in bold:
I do not believe that my lack of belief in hell will, if hell is real, excuse me from it

If you state one more time that I do, I will know you are either too stupid to engage further, too dismissive to engage further, or a troll.

I can't choose what to believe; I am convinced of things despite my will, not because of it.

I do not believe I will have an eternal state.
But, since this is an atheist talking about himself, I have little doubt that it will be ignored.
Yet another atheist noting that a certain poster doesn't even listen to what he actually says. The poster in question admits that atheists have been saying that to him on these boards for nearly a decade - but he refuses to change his behaviour, because it can't possibly be that atheists could be right and him wrong, about anything.
 

Eightcrackers

Well-known member
And do you give a money-back guarantee for the product of after-death salvation you're selling?
Indeed - "guarantee" implies a contingency in case of dissatisfaction; it's easy to offer a "guarantee" that only applies after you bloody die.

"Your parahcute is guaranteed to open; if it fails, you - but ONLY you - can sue us for one trillion dollars."
 

Komodo

Well-known member
[. . .] Unless colour can be demonstrated by some means that applies to them, they are completely justified in refusing to believe in it.
True isn't always reasonable, and reasonable isn't always true.
FWIW, it's always seemed to me that it would be pretty simple to provide a blind person with proof beyond reasonable doubt that colors exist. Give him two pencils, one which writes in red and is labeled "red" in Braille, the other which writes in blue and is labeled "blue," and some blank sheets of paper. The blind person is asked to choose one pencil (he can cover up the Braille labels so others can't tell which one he's using) and draw a simple shape like a triangle with it. When he shows the triangle written with the red pencil, the sighted person always says "that's red," and when he shows the one written with the blue pencil, the sighted person always says "that's blue." How is this possible, unless there is some quality of the writing, aside from its shape, which sighted people call "color"?
 
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