Just to get things started normally -

Bob Carabbio

Active member
A: Tongues are PHONY!!
B: No they're not
A: yes they are
B; NO THEY'RE NOT!!
A: YES THEY ARE!!
C: and they're probably DEMONIC
B: NO THEY'RE NOT!!
A: Sure they are!! ALL that "Miraculous stuff" ended when the Bible was published - 1 Cor 13:10
B: Ridiculous!! 1 Cor 13:10 has nothing to do with it!!
A: YES IT DOES!!
etc.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
A: Tongues are PHONY!!
B: No they're not
A: yes they are
B; NO THEY'RE NOT!!
A: YES THEY ARE!!
C: and they're probably DEMONIC
B: NO THEY'RE NOT!!
A: Sure they are!! ALL that "Miraculous stuff" ended when the Bible was published - 1 Cor 13:10
B: Ridiculous!! 1 Cor 13:10 has nothing to do with it!!
A: YES IT DOES!!
etc.
clearly they're not, and I can see that because you're using yours. Curious how that works. :ROFLMAO:
 
It's kind of ironic that so-called "mainstream" Christianity gets to say who is cultic and who is not. And yet, they have pastors endangering the lives of the flock by telling them to attend church services during this pandemic. Some of them selling cockadoodledoo concoction as a cure for COVID.

I'm glad I'm out of this so-called evangelical mainstream Christianity. So much disappointment.
 

Beloved Daughter

Active member
It's kind of ironic that so-called "mainstream" Christianity gets to say who is cultic and who is not. And yet, they have pastors endangering the lives of the flock by telling them to attend church services during this pandemic. Some of them selling cockadoodledoo concoction as a cure for COVID.

I'm glad I'm out of this so-called evangelical mainstream Christianity. So much disappointment.

The Constitution doesn't say government can close worship services. My church has not closed a single Sunday.

This is an open letter to the Congregation of Grace Community Church. https://www.gracechurch.org/news/posts/1988

Even if people get the virus, the death rate is less than 1%.

That's an acceptable risk.
 

tbeachhead

New member
It's kind of ironic that so-called "mainstream" Christianity gets to say who is cultic and who is not. And yet, they have pastors endangering the lives of the flock by telling them to attend church services during this pandemic. Some of them selling cockadoodledoo concoction as a cure for COVID.

I'm glad I'm out of this so-called evangelical mainstream Christianity. So much disappointment.
It's good to be glad...That's a healthy start. I'm prone to think that even our definition of "glad" will amount to how much we're willing to take. Many have been taught that healing is not promised in the gospel unless you're dead...then you're guaranteed complete healing. Pentecostals teach as Jesus did, "Believers will lay their hands on the sick and they shall recover." We are now being told by the unelected ersatz government, "They will lay their hands on the healthy and they will get Covid." Without stinting, we've switched churches...and go on as if we're doing the right thing, and the guys on the other side of the fence are messing up....and leaders rush to publish in "Christian" magazines like Christianity Today...

It will boil down to a simple question: Show me by your choices whom you believe...and I'll tell you whom you serve.
 

Mik

Member
It's good to be glad...That's a healthy start. I'm prone to think that even our definition of "glad" will amount to how much we're willing to take. Many have been taught that healing is not promised in the gospel unless you're dead...then you're guaranteed complete healing. Pentecostals teach as Jesus did, "Believers will lay their hands on the sick and they shall recover." We are now being told by the unelected ersatz government, "They will lay their hands on the healthy and they will get Covid." Without stinting, we've switched churches...and go on as if we're doing the right thing, and the guys on the other side of the fence are messing up....and leaders rush to publish in "Christian" magazines like Christianity Today...

It will boil down to a simple question: Show me by your choices whom you believe...and I'll tell you whom you serve.
Does recovery happen every time when 'they lay there hands on the sick'?

This is an honest question that I have been thinking about. I've seen where a question like this can lead to some 'not so Christian responses'. I am really directing this question to you TBH. You seem very knowledgeable in this area.

Thanks in advance.
 

Mikey1967

New member
Does recovery happen every time when 'they lay there hands on the sick'?

This is an honest question that I have been thinking about. I've seen where a question like this can lead to some 'not so Christian responses'. I am really directing this question to you TBH. You seem very knowledgeable in this area.

Thanks in advance.
No, with only one answer when it doesn't. "Because of your lack of faith." This takes away the idea that because it doesn't always happen for Christians mean that God doesn't always heal. Matthew 17
 

Mik

Member
No, with only one answer when it doesn't. "Because of your lack of faith." This takes away the idea that because it doesn't always happen for Christians mean that God doesn't always heal. Matthew 17
Not sure I am following what you are saying. Are you saying God always heals?
 

Mik

Member
I am saying it is always His will. When we see failure, it is not because He doesn't heal, but our struggle in faith or rather, the lack thereof.
So are you saying if a person is not healed it is because the people laying on hands and the person being prayed for struggle in faith or lack faith altogether?
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
Does recovery happen every time when 'they lay there hands on the sick'?
Absolutely NOT. But SOMETIMES (to everybody's happy surprise) it does. Church folks (including Pentecostal/Charismatics) raise all sorts of "Theological excuses" for their "Lack of Spiritual power".

Romans 10:17 gives the BASIS for FAITH (God's WORD to you). 9 times out of 10, however neither the one Laying hands on, nor the one receiving the ministry has any idea whatsoever what God will, or won't do, and when NOTHING happens (typically), "No faith" is the rationalization - and actually the true reason for the failure. Unfortunately the church tends to blame the Sick person for their "Lack of FAITH", when the ministers themselves didn't actually have any either.

When Peter encountered the cripple at the temple gate, he said SUCH AS I HAVE (he was aware, before the fact, of what God was going to do) Give I thee - WALK - and he picks him up!!! You'd BETTER know what's gonna happen when you PICK UP a cripple!! You might break him otherwise!!!
 

Mik

Member
Absolutely NOT. But SOMETIMES (to everybody's happy surprise) it does. Church folks (including Pentecostal/Charismatics) raise all sorts of "Theological excuses" for their "Lack of Spiritual power".

Romans 10:17 gives the BASIS for FAITH (God's WORD to you). 9 times out of 10, however neither the one Laying hands on, nor the one receiving the ministry has any idea whatsoever what God will, or won't do, and when NOTHING happens (typically), "No faith" is the rationalization - and actually the true reason for the failure. Unfortunately the church tends to blame the Sick person for their "Lack of FAITH", when the ministers themselves didn't actually have any either.

When Peter encountered the cripple at the temple gate, he said SUCH AS I HAVE (he was aware, before the fact, of what God was going to do) Give I thee - WALK - and he picks him up!!! You'd BETTER know what's gonna happen when you PICK UP a cripple!! You might break him otherwise!!!
Thanks for your answer. Still have some questions. Still a little confused. So If those praying and the one prayed for 'have faith' they will be healed every time?
What if those praying (like your Peter example) have faith the one prayed for will always be healed? Like your example of Peter, it seems that the faith of the one healed was not a factor here, that is was Peter's faith that God used to heal the man.
Sorry if my questions are confusing. I'm try to ask them as clearly as I can.
 

Mikey1967

New member
So are you saying if a person is not healed it is because the people laying on hands and the person being prayed for struggle in faith or lack faith altogether?
Not the sicks faith, the person laying on of hands is supposed to have faith. Jesus acknowledged when those He was healing had faith but it was not theirs but His faith. Just like the disciples who failed to heal the demonic boy. Jesus did not admonish the one who needed healing but His disciples who lacked faith. Then Jesus healed the boy. So, was Jesus disobeying the Father and healed someone who was not in His will to be healed or was it God's will but the disciples lacked faith?
 

Mik

Member
Not the sicks faith, the person laying on of hands is supposed to have faith. Jesus acknowledged when those He was healing had faith but it was not theirs but His faith. Just like the disciples who failed to heal the demonic boy. Jesus did not admonish the one who needed healing but His disciples who lacked faith. Then Jesus healed the boy. So, was Jesus disobeying the Father and healed someone who was not in His will to be healed or was it God's will but the disciples lacked faith?
Now I'm confused about your statement here I marked and underlined in BOLD.

Mark 10:52
and Matthew 9:22 _ Jesus seems to say the opposite of what you wrote.
 

Mikey1967

New member
Now I'm confused about your statement here I marked and underlined in BOLD.

Mark 10:52
and Matthew 9:22 _ Jesus seems to say the opposite of what you wrote.
No it isn't. As I stated, Jesus acknowledged people who had faith and even said that their faith was involved in healing when they had faith. But the sick is not required for healing. Acts 3:1-10 shows us this. The one healed had no idea or faith. He thought he was going to receive money. It was Peter and John's faith that healed him. Look at James 5:13-15 shows that it is the Elders faith that will heal the sick. We have to be careful to take the scriptures as a whole and not make a doctrine out of part. The scripture is in harmony with itself and we must not allow truth of scripture to not be interpreted through circumstance. Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. We set ourselves to miss the the fact that we are are to demonstrate the Kingdom just as Jesus did.

Who's faith is involved in raising the dead?
 

Bob Carabbio

Active member
Thanks for your answer. Still have some questions. Still a little confused. So If those praying and the one prayed for 'have faith' they will be healed every time?
What if those praying (like your Peter example) have faith the one prayed for will always be healed? Like your example of Peter, it seems that the faith of the one healed was not a factor here, that is was Peter's faith that God used to heal the man.
Sorry if my questions are confusing. I'm try to ask them as clearly as I can.
FAITH (biblically according to Heb 11:1) HAS GOT TO HAVE two attributes: It has to have "Substance", and it has to be an "Evidence".

Religious belief (Intellectual ASSENT) has no "Substance, and is evidence of NOTHING - except what you've chosen to believe.

Biblical FAITH, however, since it's based on (Rom 10:17) GOD'S WORD TO YOU, HAS Substance, and is incontrovertible Evidence of God's intentions.

In the Peter case, the cripple was not in the FAITH loop at all - he was just looking for a handout, and his healing came as a complete surprise to him. But not to Peter who KNEW what would happen when he spoke the WORD.

In Lazarus' case HE WAS DEAD, so no faith there either.

The woman with the issue of blood, however, KNEW In Faith that if she touched Jesus, she'd be Healed, and was willing to break several Jewish rules to get to Him (since she was unclean).

Peter, when he told Jesus the He was the Son of God - only knew that by revelation of the Holy Spirit - God's Word to him.

The Centurion Understood exactly how Jesus operated, and where the power came from, and the "Faith of the sick servant" wasn't involved.

Biblical FAITH IS ALWAYS "gifted" - the WORD OF GOD TO YOU (Rom 10:17) And ONLY under those circumstances, can you SPEAK - nothing doubting.

SO the answer to YOUR question is ABSOLUTELY!! If the one PRAYING/Laying hands is MOVING IN FAITH - then the thing will be done, and by the same token if the one BEING PRAYED FOR is moving in FAITH, the thing will be done (Mark 11:22-24).

And when NOBODY is moving in FAITH, sometimes God, according to his own will, DOES move in miracle power. And everybody is pleasantly surprised.

That it DOESN'T HAPPEN in most cases, is simply an indication of the "normal condition" of the visible churches in the 21st century. GOD hasn't changed, and His POWER hasn't decayed.

I'm dying of Advanced Coronary Artery disease, and Congestive Heart Failure. I HAVE NO FAITH that God has any intention of healing me of those conditions. IF somebody wants to "Lay hands" on me, I'll let 'em. and I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised -

But If I'm NEVER healed, That's O.K. Heaven will be better than THIS.

AND - that doesn't mean that God Doesn't perform physical miracles ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, and it doesn't mean that God doesn't use his ministers according to HIS WILL to minister healing to others.

Simple as that.
 
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