Just to get things started normally -

Mik

Member
No it isn't. As I stated, Jesus acknowledged people who had faith and even said that their faith was involved in healing when they had faith. But the sick is not required for healing. Acts 3:1-10 shows us this. The one healed had no idea or faith. He thought he was going to receive money. It was Peter and John's faith that healed him. Look at James 5:13-15 shows that it is the Elders faith that will heal the sick. We have to be careful to take the scriptures as a whole and not make a doctrine out of part. The scripture is in harmony with itself and we must not allow truth of scripture to not be interpreted through circumstance. Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. We set ourselves to miss the the fact that we are are to demonstrate the Kingdom just as Jesus did.

Who's faith is involved in raising the dead?
I thought that's what I was doing.
 

Mik

Member
FAITH (biblically according to Heb 11:1) HAS GOT TO HAVE two attributes: It has to have "Substance", and it has to be an "Evidence".

Religious belief (Intellectual ASSENT) has no "Substance, and is evidence of NOTHING - except what you've chosen to believe.

Biblical FAITH, however, since it's based on (Rom 10:17) GOD'S WORD TO YOU, HAS Substance, and is incontrovertible Evidence of God's intentions.

In the Peter case, the cripple was not in the FAITH loop at all - he was just looking for a handout, and his healing came as a complete surprise to him. But not to Peter who KNEW what would happen when he spoke the WORD.

In Lazarus' case HE WAS DEAD, so no faith there either.

The woman with the issue of blood, however, KNEW In Faith that if she touched Jesus, she'd be Healed, and was willing to break several Jewish rules to get to Him (since she was unclean).

Peter, when he told Jesus the He was the Son of God - only knew that by revelation of the Holy Spirit - God's Word to him.

The Centurion Understood exactly how Jesus operated, and where the power came from, and the "Faith of the sick servant" wasn't involved.

Biblical FAITH IS ALWAYS "gifted" - the WORD OF GOD TO YOU (Rom 10:17) And ONLY under those circumstances, can you SPEAK - nothing doubting.

SO the answer to YOUR question is ABSOLUTELY!! If the one PRAYING/Laying hands is MOVING IN FAITH - then the thing will be done, and by the same token if the one BEING PRAYED FOR is moving in FAITH, the thing will be done (Mark 11:22-24).

And when NOBODY is moving in FAITH, sometimes God, according to his own will, DOES move in miracle power. And everybody is pleasantly surprised.

That it DOESN'T HAPPEN in most cases, is simply an indication of the "normal condition" of the visible churches in the 21st century. GOD hasn't changed, and His POWER hasn't decayed.

I'm dying of Advanced Coronary Artery disease, and Congestive Heart Failure. I HAVE NO FAITH that God has any intention of healing me of those conditions. IF somebody wants to "Lay hands" on me, I'll let 'em. and I wouldn't mind being pleasantly surprised -

But If I'm NEVER healed, That's O.K. Heaven will be better than THIS.

AND - that doesn't mean that God Doesn't perform physical miracles ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, and it doesn't mean that God doesn't use his ministers according to HIS WILL to minister healing to others.

Simple as that.
Thank you for taking the time to answer in a detailed, biblical answer. I believe God's Word on 'Faith'. I just don't like when I hear some Christians blame the sick person's lack of faith if they are prayed for and are not healed. But, as you explained in your answers, there are many 'factors' or reasons people are healed or not healed.
 

Mik

Member
I was not accusing but rather pointing out a reality of interpretation. If that is the way it came across, I apologize.
No problem. Apology accepted. I do agree with your point of being careful of making doctrine out of a single verse and not the Bible as a whole.
 

robycop3

Active member
I'm an indy fundy Baptist who doesn't believe ANY man-made doctrine or rule of faith/worship, such as the KJVO myth, "faith/prosperity", or one MUST speak in tongues to be saved.

I avoid pentecostalism in general. While it has many branches, I see several of them as outright cults, & false religion, such as "oneness". And I reject all their man-made rules such as "no pants on women", etc.
 
Now I'm confused about your statement here I marked and underlined in BOLD.

Mark 10:52
and Matthew 9:22 _ Jesus seems to say the opposite of what you wrote.

I healed a dog once who was paralyzed from the hips down. Was it my faith, or the dogs?
 
I'm an indy fundy Baptist who doesn't believe ANY man-made doctrine or rule of faith/worship, such as the KJVO myth, "faith/prosperity", or one MUST speak in tongues to be saved.

I avoid pentecostalism in general. While it has many branches, I see several of them as outright cults, & false religion, such as "oneness". And I reject all their man-made rules such as "no pants on women", etc.
Hi, indy fundy Baptist. What does that mean? :)
 

robycop3

Active member
Hi, indy fundy Baptist. What does that mean? :)
It means "Independent, Fundamentalist Baptist", which is often recognized as a separate denom. Our church is not affiliated with any larger org except Jesus' Church,(NOT the "church of Christ") which we believe is the only TRUE Church, no matter what its individual congregations call themselves.
 
It means "Independent, Fundamentalist Baptist", which is often recognized as a separate denom. Our church is not affiliated with any larger org except Jesus' Church,(NOT the "church of Christ") which we believe is the only TRUE Church, no matter what its individual congregations call themselves.

I'm not of any denomination, but only enjoy fellow-shipping with other Charismatics, or nonCessationists. I get bored with the apathetic who cut holes in our New Covenant, just because they won't let it apply to themselves. As far as what you call cults, I call extreme Bible observing to the letter. I accept them, but they may not accept me. LOL They do what they do in the fear of the Lord, and do not question the inerrancy of the Word of God, but only where it concerns women. Men cut their sideburns, which is against the Old Testament as is women wearing men's clothing/pants. But, as usual, what is good for the goose, is not observed by the gander. Double standards - same as in the world.
 

robycop3

Active member
I'm not of any denomination, but only enjoy fellow-shipping with other Charismatics, or nonCessationists. I get bored with the apathetic who cut holes in our New Covenant, just because they won't let it apply to themselves. As far as what you call cults, I call extreme Bible observing to the letter. I accept them, but they may not accept me. LOL They do what they do in the fear of the Lord, and do not question the inerrancy of the Word of God, but only where it concerns women. Men cut their sideburns, which is against the Old Testament as is women wearing men's clothing/pants. But, as usual, what is good for the goose, is not observed by the gander. Double standards - same as in the world.
I not only cut my sideburns; I shave my whole head, except for eyebrows/eyelashes. And womens' pants are womens' apparel; they're not made for men My wife makes many of her own clothes, so she knows. She reminds women who criticize her for wearing pants of that fact, reminding them womens' pants are made to fit a woman's figure, which is obviously different from a man's.

I don't live under OT law; anyone trying to do so must not fail in the smallest point of it, & only Jesus was able to do that. And I don't follow any man-made rules of faith/worship, such as preterism, the KJVO myth, or the many such rules of some branches of pentecostalism.
 
I not only cut my sideburns; I shave my whole head, except for eyebrows/eyelashes. And womens' pants are womens' apparel; they're not made for men My wife makes many of her own clothes, so she knows. She reminds women who criticize her for wearing pants of that fact, reminding them womens' pants are made to fit a woman's figure, which is obviously different from a man's.

I don't live under OT law; anyone trying to do so must not fail in the smallest point of it, & only Jesus was able to do that. And I don't follow any man-made rules of faith/worship, such as preterism, the KJVO myth, or the many such rules of some branches of pentecostalism.

Are you aware that the New Testament laws are deeper and even harder to keep with our flesh? It is called the law of Liberty, and we are judged by it, not the Old Covenant surface laws. 1 John 3:23-24. The easy laws of the Old Covenant are what we are no longer under. The New Covenant laws cannot be kept at all by our flesh, whereas the Old Covenant laws were merely a struggle between mind and nature. Romans 7:14-23. The difference between the two covenants is the Holy Spirit of Christ that MUST indwell us, or we do not belong to Christ. Romans 8:9. He is for the purpose of our being able to partake of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:2-11. Unfortunately, not everyone claiming to be a Christian has been baptized in the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38. I know I wasn't for the first 30 years of going to church! That's a long time to merely be in the drawing stage of the Father bringing us to Christ, and having no power over sin yet. What a difference the Holy Spirit made. 1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

James 2:
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

As far as Jesus being "the only one able to do that," you are wrong. It is the number one reason Jesus came in the first place - to free us from sin. John 8:32-36. 1 John 3:5, Romans 8:29-30
 
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robycop3

Active member
Are you aware that the New Testament laws are deeper and even harder to keep with our flesh? It is called the law of Liberty, and we are judged by it, not the Old Covenant surface laws. 1 John 3:23-24. The easy laws of the Old Covenant are what we are no longer under. The New Covenant laws cannot be kept at all by our flesh, whereas the Old Covenant laws were merely a struggle between mind and nature. Romans 7:14-23. The difference between the two covenants is the Holy Spirit of Christ that MUST indwell us, or we do not belong to Christ. Romans 8:9. He is for the purpose of our being able to partake of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:2-11. Unfortunately, not everyone claiming to be a Christian has been baptized in the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38. I know I wasn't for the first 30 years of going to church! That's a long time to merely be in the drawing stage of the Father bringing us to Christ, and having no power over sin yet. What a difference the Holy Spirit made. 1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
[/QUOTE]
One doesn't DELIBERATELY sin, that is.
James 2:
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
All true rules & doctrines for faith/worship are found only in Scripture. I do not follow man-made rules of faith/worship, nor believe the new meanings some men have added to the true meanings of Scriptures.
As far as Jesus being "the only one able to do that," you are wrong. It is the number one reason Jesus came in the first place - to free us from sin. John 8:32-36. 1 John 3:5, Romans 8:29-30

Betcha can't show us anyone else who kept the entire Old Testament law perfectly, so it appears YOU are wrong.
 
One doesn't DELIBERATELY sin, that is.

All true rules & doctrines for faith/worship are found only in Scripture. I do not follow man-made rules of faith/worship, nor believe the new meanings some men have added to the true meanings of Scriptures.


Betcha can't show us anyone else who kept the entire Old Testament law perfectly, so it appears YOU are wrong.
[/QUOTE]

I bet Enoch did.

But you're right it was hard - Paul described trying to keep the Mosaic Law with a nature that was opposed to the Law, instead of inline with the law in Romans 7. That is why we must be born of the SPIRIT just as Jesus was when it was the SPIRIT that came upon Mary and she conceived by the seed of the Father. And when we are born of the Spirit, that same seed is within us. 1 John 3:9
 

robycop3

Active member
One doesn't DELIBERATELY sin, that is.

All true rules & doctrines for faith/worship are found only in Scripture. I do not follow man-made rules of faith/worship, nor believe the new meanings some men have added to the true meanings of Scriptures.


Betcha can't show us anyone else who kept the entire Old Testament law perfectly, so it appears YOU are wrong.

I bet Enoch did.[/quote]
The law hadn't been given when Enoch was here.

But you're right it was hard - Paul described trying to keep the Mosaic Law with a nature that was opposed to the Law, instead of inline with the law in Romans 7. That is why we must be born of the SPIRIT just as Jesus was when it was the SPIRIT that came upon Mary and she conceived by the seed of the Father. And when we are born of the Spirit, that same seed is within us. 1 John 3:9

But we are not required to keep the old law any more. God won't hold us guilty for wearing clothes made from 2 or more different fabrics, cutting our hair or having long hair, etc.
 
I bet Enoch did.
The law hadn't been given when Enoch was here.



But we are not required to keep the old law any more. God won't hold us guilty for wearing clothes made from 2 or more different fabrics, cutting our hair or having long hair, etc.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, the Old law was meant to just guard us until Jesus came to free us from the bondage of Adam's sinful nature. So instead of having to keep the Ten Commandments, we must be born again of the Spirit. 1 John 3:5-9. Romans 6:15-16

Jesus may have freed us from the law of Moses, but not from righteousness. Righteousness does not come through the law, but through God's Spirit.

Romans 8:
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
It's kind of ironic that so-called "mainstream" Christianity gets to say who is cultic and who is not. And yet, they have pastors endangering the lives of the flock by telling them to attend church services during this pandemic. Some of them selling cockadoodledoo concoction as a cure for COVID.

I'm glad I'm out of this so-called evangelical mainstream Christianity. So much disappointment.
Which is exactly why I think the writer of Hebrews told us to keep our focus on Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith. Hebrews 12:1-2

If I tried following all the different ideas, denominations, and doctrinal constructs, I would've left when I first tried leaving in 1980.
Are you following Jesus, or did you bail on religion entirely?

Don't follow religion.....

Come follow Jesus.
He made it pretty clear he'd give us the Holy Spirit who would teach us all we needed to know, and would guide us into all truth. John 16:12-15.
 
Which is exactly why I think the writer of Hebrews told us to keep our focus on Jesus, who is the author and finisher of our faith. Hebrews 12:1-2

If I tried following all the different ideas, denominations, and doctrinal constructs, I would've left when I first tried leaving in 1980.
Are you following Jesus, or did you bail on religion entirely?

Don't follow religion.....

Come follow Jesus.
He made it pretty clear he'd give us the Holy Spirit who would teach us all we needed to know, and would guide us into all truth. John 16:12-15.

I would say we still need to be accountable to one another and why Hebrews 10:25 is important.
 

robycop3

Active member
The law hadn't been given when Enoch was here.



But we are not required to keep the old law any more. God won't hold us guilty for wearing clothes made from 2 or more different fabrics, cutting our hair or having long hair, etc.

Yes, the Old law was meant to just guard us until Jesus came to free us from the bondage of Adam's sinful nature. So instead of having to keep the Ten Commandments, we must be born again of the Spirit. 1 John 3:5-9. Romans 6:15-16

Jesus may have freed us from the law of Moses, but not from righteousness. Righteousness does not come through the law, but through God's Spirit.

Romans 8:
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Jesus summed it up when He said that PROPER TREATMENT & RESPECT OF OTHER PEOPLE was the essence of all the Mosaic law apart from the rules of worship, such as no worship of anything or anyone but God.

As for the 10 commandments, not murdering, not stealing, respecting one's parents, & no false witnessing come within proper treatment of others, while no worshipping anyone/thing but God, & no misuse of God's name come under proper worship.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I would say we still need to be accountable to one another and why Hebrews 10:25 is important.
I'm not saying that it's not.
But if we focus on what others are doing, their failures, etc..., while ignoring our own issues.... we're not following Jesus. We're following others.
Fellowship, as defined in Hebrews 10:24-25, Ephesians 4, 1 Cor. 12-14, is to build, strengthen, and encourage each other to continue to follow Jesus.

Here's an anecdote I've heard off an on over the years. I think it makes my point quite well.



The Pastor And The Glass Of Water​


"A lady went to her Pastor and said 'Pastor, I won't be going to your church anymore.'

The Pastor responded ' Ok. But I'd like to ask why?'

The lady said 'Ah! I saw a woman gossiping about another member; a man that is a hypocrite; the worship team living wrong; people looking at their phone during service; among so many other things wrong in your church.'

The Pastor replied 'OK. But before you go, do me a favor: take a full glass of water and walk around the church three times without spilling a drop on the ground. Afterwards, leave the church if you desire.'
The lady thought: too easy! She walked three times around the church as the Pastor had asked. When she finished she told the Pastor she was ready to leave.


The Pastor said, 'Before you leave I want to ask you one more question. When you were walking around the church, did you see anyone gossiping?'

The lady replied 'No.'

'Did you see any hypocrites?'

The lady said 'No.'

'Anyone looking at their phone?'

'No.'

'You know why?'

'No.'

'You were focused on the glass, to make sure you didn't stumble and spill any water. It's the same with our life. When we keep our eyes on Jesus, we don't have time to see the mistakes of others. We will reach out a helping hand to them and concentrate on our own walk with the Lord.'"


The more occupied we are with doing what we've been told by Jesus to do, the less time we'll have to focus on the shortcomings and failures of others.
Moreover, Jesus did not say that the world would know us by our doctrinal orthodoxy. He said the world would know we are his followers by our Love one for another.

Read Revelation lately? Did you know that the Church of Ephesus almost got booted because they lost their first love.
Jesus praised them for everything else, but said unless they returned to their first love, he'd remove their candlestick......

1 “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,​
‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.​
7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’​
 
Jesus summed it up when He said that PROPER TREATMENT & RESPECT OF OTHER PEOPLE was the essence of all the Mosaic law apart from the rules of worship, such as no worship of anything or anyone but God.

As for the 10 commandments, not murdering, not stealing, respecting one's parents, & no false witnessing come within proper treatment of others, while no worshipping anyone/thing but God, & no misuse of God's name come under proper worship.

But they didn't go deep enough. In the Old Covenant you could hate someone, you just couldn't murder them.
 
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