Just what is salvific Faith ?

civic

Well-known member
So many times on the forum things are assumed on both sides without defining words, phrases and other things hence we often times talk past one another. I believe this happens with "faith" as well. So lets see if we can come to an agreement on salvific faith, its origin and how it is obtained from one who is lost to one who becomes saved.

Thankfully, the Bible contains a clear definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Simply put, the biblical definition of faith is “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”

This definition of faith contains two aspects: intellectual assent and trust. Intellectual assent is believing something to be true. Trust is actually relying on the fact that the something is true. A chair is often used to help illustrate this. Intellectual assent is recognizing that a chair is a chair and agreeing that it is designed to support a person who sits on it. Trust is actually sitting in the chair.

Understanding these two aspects of faith is crucial. Many people believe certain facts about Jesus Christ. Many people will intellectually agree with the facts the Bible declares about Jesus. But knowing those facts to be true is not what the Bible means by “faith.” The biblical definition of faith requires intellectual assent to the facts and trust in the facts.

Believing that Jesus is God incarnate who died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and was resurrected is not enough. Even the demons “believe” in God and acknowledge those facts (cf. James 2:19). We must personally and fully rely on the death of Christ as the atoning sacrifice for our sins. We must “sit in the chair” of the salvation that Jesus Christ has provided. This is saving faith. The faith God requires of us for salvation is belief in what the Bible says about who Jesus is and what He accomplished and fully trusting in Jesus for that salvation (Acts 16:31). Biblical faith is always accompanied by repentance (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15).

The biblical definition of faith does not apply only to salvation. It is equally applicable to the rest of the Christian life. We are to believe what the Bible says, and we are to obey it. We are to believe the promises of God, and we are to live accordingly. We are to agree with the truth of God’s Word, and we are to allow ourselves to be transformed by it (Romans 12:2).

Why is this definition of faith so important? Why must trust accompany agreeing with facts? Because “without faith, it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6). Without faith, we cannot be saved (John 3:16). Without faith, the Christian life cannot be what God intends it to be (John 10:10).

Where does faith come from? Faith is not something we conjure up on our own, nor is it something we are born with, nor is faith a result of diligence in study or pursuit of the spiritual. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear that faith is a gift from God, not because we deserve it, have earned it, or are worthy to have it. It is not from ourselves; it is from God. It is not obtained by our power or our free will. Faith is simply given to us by God, along with His grace and mercy, according to His holy plan and purpose, and because of that, He gets all the glory.

Why have faith? God designed a way to distinguish between those who belong to Him and those who don’t, and it is called faith. Very simply, we need faith to please God. God tells us that it pleases Him that we believe in Him even though we cannot see Him. A key part of Hebrews 11:6 tells us that “he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” This is not to say that we have faith in God just to get something from Him. However, God loves to bless those who are obedient and faithful. We see a perfect example of this in Luke 7:50. Jesus is engaged in dialog with a sinful woman when He gives us a glimpse of why faith is so rewarding. “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” The woman believed in Jesus Christ by faith, and He rewarded her for it. Finally, faith is what sustains us to the end, knowing that by faith we will be in heaven with God for all eternity. “Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls” (1 Peter 1:8-9).got?

hope this helps !!!
 

civic

Well-known member
Question: "What are some of the signs of genuine saving faith?"

Answer:
This is one of the most important questions in the Christian life. Many believers doubt their salvation because they don’t see signs of genuine faith in their lives. There are those who say we should never doubt our decision to follow Christ, but the Bible encourages us to examine ourselves to see if we are truly “in the faith” (2 Corinthians 13:5). Thankfully, God has given us ample instruction for how we can know for sure that we have eternal life.

The first epistle of John was actually written for that purpose, as it states in 1 John 5:13, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

There is a series of tests in 1 John that we can use to examine ourselves and our faith. As we look at them, remember that no one will perfectly fulfill all of them all the time, but they should reveal a consistent trend that characterizes our lives as we grow in grace.

1. Do you enjoy having fellowship with Christ and His redeemed people? (1 John 1:3)
2. Would people say you walk in the light, or walk in the darkness? (1 John 1:6-7)
3. Do you admit and confess your sin? (1 John 1:8)
4. Are you obedient to God’s Word? (1 John 2:3-5)
5. Does your life indicate you love God rather than the world? (1 John 2:15)
6. Is your life characterized by "doing what is right"? (1 John 2:29)
7. Do you seek to maintain a pure life? (1 John 3:3)
8. Do you see a decreasing pattern of sin in your life? (1 John 3:5-6) [Note: this refers to not continuing in sin as a way of life, not a total absence of sin.]
9. Do you demonstrate love for other Christians? (1 John 3:14)
10. Do you "walk the walk," versus just "talking the talk"? (1 John 3:18-19)
11. Do you maintain a clear conscience? (1 John 3:21)
12. Do you experience victory in your Christian walk? (1 John 5:4)

If you are able to truthfully answer "Yes" to these questions (or a majority of them, and are working on the others), then your life is bearing the fruit of true salvation. Jesus said that it is by our fruits that we are known as His disciples (Matthew 7:20). Fruitless branches—professing believers who do not display the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) are cut off and thrown into the fire (John 15:6). A genuine faith is one that not only believes in God (the demons themselves do that - James 2:19), but leads to open confession of sin and obedience to Christ’s commands. Remember, we are saved by grace through faith, not by our works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but our works should display the reality of our salvation (James 2:17-18). Genuine saving faith will always produce works; a faith that is perpetually without works is no faith at all and saves no one.

In John 10:27-29, Jesus said, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand." If you hear and obey the voice of Jesus, then you are one of His sheep, and He will never let you go. Jesus gave a wonderful word picture here of Christians securely held within His loving hands and the Father’s almighty hands wrapping themselves around His, giving us a double assurance of eternal security.got?

hope this helps !!!
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So many times on the forum things are assumed on both sides without defining words, phrases and other things hence we often times talk past one another. I believe this happens with "faith" as well. So lets see if we can come to an agreement on salvific faith, its origin and how it is obtained from one who is lost to one who becomes saved.

Thankfully, the Bible contains a clear definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Simply put, the biblical definition of faith is “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”

This definition of faith contains two aspects: intellectual assent and trust. Intellectual assent is believing something to be true. Trust is actually relying on the fact that the something is true. A chair is often used to help illustrate this. Intellectual assent is recognizing that a chair is a chair and agreeing that it is designed to support a person who sits on it. Trust is actually sitting in the chair.

Understanding these two aspects of faith is crucial. Many people believe certain facts about Jesus Christ. Many people will intellectually agree with the facts the Bible declares about Jesus. But knowing those facts to be true is not what the Bible means by “faith.” The biblical definition of faith requires intellectual assent to the facts and trust in the facts.

Believing that Jesus is God incarnate who died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and was resurrected is not enough. Even the demons “believe” in God and acknowledge those facts (cf. James 2:19). We must personally and fully rely on the death of Christ as the atoning sacrifice for our sins. We must “sit in the chair” of the salvation that Jesus Christ has provided. This is saving faith. The faith God requires of us for salvation is belief in what the Bible says about who Jesus is and what He accomplished and fully trusting in Jesus for that salvation (Acts 16:31). Biblical faith is always accompanied by repentance (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15).

The biblical definition of faith does not apply only to salvation. It is equally applicable to the rest of the Christian life. We are to believe what the Bible says, and we are to obey it. We are to believe the promises of God, and we are to live accordingly. We are to agree with the truth of God’s Word, and we are to allow ourselves to be transformed by it (Romans 12:2).

Why is this definition of faith so important? Why must trust accompany agreeing with facts? Because “without faith, it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6). Without faith, we cannot be saved (John 3:16). Without faith, the Christian life cannot be what God intends it to be (John 10:10).

Where does faith come from? Faith is not something we conjure up on our own, nor is it something we are born with, nor is faith a result of diligence in study or pursuit of the spiritual. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear that faith is a gift from God, not because we deserve it, have earned it, or are worthy to have it. It is not from ourselves; it is from God. It is not obtained by our power or our free will. Faith is simply given to us by God, along with His grace and mercy, according to His holy plan and purpose, and because of that, He gets all the glory.

Why have faith? God designed a way to distinguish between those who belong to Him and those who don’t, and it is called faith. Very simply, we need faith to please God. God tells us that it pleases Him that we believe in Him even though we cannot see Him. A key part of Hebrews 11:6 tells us that “he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” This is not to say that we have faith in God just to get something from Him. However, God loves to bless those who are obedient and faithful. We see a perfect example of this in Luke 7:50. Jesus is engaged in dialog with a sinful woman when He gives us a glimpse of why faith is so rewarding. “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” The woman believed in Jesus Christ by faith, and He rewarded her for it. Finally, faith is what sustains us to the end, knowing that by faith we will be in heaven with God for all eternity. “Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls” (1 Peter 1:8-9).got?

hope this helps !!!
Amen! I suppose this analogy is applicable to this Forum if someone sat on their hand and the chair, saying the chair and their hand holds them up...
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Where does faith come from? Faith is not something we conjure up on our own, nor is it something we are born with, nor is faith a result of diligence in study or pursuit of the spiritual. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear that faith is a gift from God, not because we deserve it, have earned it, or are worthy to have it. It is not from ourselves; it is from God. It is not obtained by our power or our free will. Faith is simply given to us by God, along with His grace and mercy, according to His holy plan and purpose, and because of that, He gets all the glory.
You got most of that right except this quote. The Bible teaches that faith comes by “hearing the word of God:”

Romans 10:

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


If faith comes by “hearing the word of God,” implying that without that “hearing” faith could not be obtained, it follows that man also has a role to play in the acquisition of faith. It is not something that just “happens” to people whether they like it or not because God wants it to happen to them. What if somebody refused to hear the word of God; or even heard the word, but not to pay any attention to it? He was thinking about last night’s movie instead of paying attention to what was preached? Would he still obtain faith?

Another thing that invalidates that claim is that people in the Bible are often condemned for not believing, which means that they have a role to play in whether they believe or not, or obtain faith. It is not something that just happens to people willy nilly just because God wants it to happen to them. They have the option to “harden their hearts,” and thus refuse to believe.
 
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civic

Well-known member
You got most of that right except this quote. The Bible teaches that faith comes by “hearing the word of God:”

Romans 10:

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


If faith comes by “hearing the word of God,” implying that without that “hearing” faith could not be obtained, it follows that man also has a role to play in the acquisition of faith. It is not something that just “happens” to people whether they like it or not because God wants it to happen to them. What if somebody refused to hear the word of God; or even heard the word, but not to pay any attention to it? He was thinking about last night’s movie instead of paying attention to what was preached? Would he still obtain faith?

Another thing that invalidates that claim is that people in the Bible are often condemned for not believing, which means that they have a role to play in whether they believe or not, or obtain faith. It is not something that just happens to people willy nilly just because God wants it to happen to them. They have the option to “harden their hearts,” and thus refuse to believe.
Saving faith comes from hearing the Gospel message which is the word of God and its very specific.

Oh and BTW that saving faith is granted by God .

1 Corinthians 4:7
7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

Romans 12:3
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Galatians 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 6:23
Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him

2 Peter 1:1
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

1 Timothy 1:14
The grace
of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

(faith is given out by God along with his grace)

Acts. 18:27 - When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed

(it is through God's grace that people believe)

Acts. 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.

hope this helps !!!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Saving faith comes from hearing the Gospel message which is the word of God and its very specific.

* * *
Not quite. Let me quote that passage for you in its wider context:

Romsns 10:

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


In that quote “sent” means sent directly by God, not just anybody who decides to take upon himself the honor. For the rest of scripture quotes you had given, they are nuanced, and can be interpreted in more than one way.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You got most of that right except this quote. The Bible teaches that faith comes by “hearing the word of God:”

Romans 10:

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


If faith comes by “hearing the word of God,” implying that without that “hearing” faith could not be obtained, it follows that man also has a role to play in the acquisition of faith. It is not something that just “happens” to people whether they like it or not because God wants it to happen to them. What if somebody refused to hear the word of God; or even heard the word, but not to pay any attention to it? He was thinking about last night’s movie instead of paying attention to what was preached? Would he still obtain faith?

Another thing that invalidates that claim is that people in the Bible are often condemned for not believing, which means that they have a role to play in whether they believe or not, or obtain faith. It is not something that just happens to people willy nilly just because God wants it to happen to them. They have the option to “harden their hearts,” and thus refuse to believe.
Who is it that Hears the Words of God though ? Jesus says Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

How is one of God ? By being born of Him, New Birth. So hearing comes by or out of being born of God !
 

civic

Well-known member
Not quite. Let me quote that passage for you in its wider context:

Romsns 10:

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


In that quote “sent” means sent directly by God, not just anybody who decides to take upon himself the honor. For the rest of scripture quotes you had given, they are nuanced, and can be interpreted in more than one way.
You really do not know the gospel or faith as its all there in Romans 10. The RESURRECTION is the CORE/ESSENTIAL doctrine of the gospel one must believe to be saved. Jesus is Lord and all that encompasses is to be taught/preached, the same with the Resurrection and everything surrounding that event in history. Why was He Resurrected ? What did He do by being Raised from the dead, what was accomplished ? For what purpose ?

You don't know what the Gospel is and who its about.


But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[b] (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

hope this helps !!!
 

zerinus

Well-known member
You really do not know the gospel or faith as its all there in Romans 10. The RESURRECTION is the CORE/ESSENTIAL doctrine of the gospel one must believe to be saved. Jesus is Lord and all that encompasses is to be taught/preached, the same with the Resurrection and everything surrounding that event in history. Why was He Resurrected ? What did He do by being Raised from the dead, what was accomplished ? For what purpose ?

You don't know what the Gospel is and who its about.
Or maybe you don't. The “gospel” literally means the “good news”. It is the “glad tidings of good things” (Rom. 10:15). It is the “good news” that Jesus has atoned for our sins, and we can be redeemed from them through faith and repentance. “Faith alone” doesn't save anyone. But faith coupled with genuine repentance does
 

civic

Well-known member
Or maybe you don't. The “gospel” literally means the “good news”. It is the “glad tidings of good things” (Rom. 10:15). It is the “good news” that Jesus has atoned for our sins, and we can be redeemed from them through faith and repentance. “Faith alone” doesn't save anyone. But faith coupled with genuine repentance does
and what is the "good news " the " gospel " message that one is saved by ?

hint hint.......................

1 Corinthians 15 :1-8
Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
 

York

Member
So many times on the forum things are assumed on both sides without defining words, phrases and other things hence we often times talk past one another. I believe this happens with "faith" as well. So lets see if we can come to an agreement on salvific faith, its origin and how it is obtained from one who is lost to one who becomes saved.

Thankfully, the Bible contains a clear definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Simply put, the biblical definition of faith is “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”

This definition of faith contains two aspects: intellectual assent and trust. Intellectual assent is believing something to be true. Trust is actually relying on the fact that the something is true. A chair is often used to help illustrate this. Intellectual assent is recognizing that a chair is a chair and agreeing that it is designed to support a person who sits on it. Trust is actually sitting in the chair.

Understanding these two aspects of faith is crucial. Many people believe certain facts about Jesus Christ. Many people will intellectually agree with the facts the Bible declares about Jesus. But knowing those facts to be true is not what the Bible means by “faith.” The biblical definition of faith requires intellectual assent to the facts and trust in the facts.

Believing that Jesus is God incarnate who died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and was resurrected is not enough. Even the demons “believe” in God and acknowledge those facts (cf. James 2:19). We must personally and fully rely on the death of Christ as the atoning sacrifice for our sins. We must “sit in the chair” of the salvation that Jesus Christ has provided. This is saving faith. The faith God requires of us for salvation is belief in what the Bible says about who Jesus is and what He accomplished and fully trusting in Jesus for that salvation (Acts 16:31). Biblical faith is always accompanied by repentance (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15).

I would raise the question of Abraham. He had salvific faith, indeed, he is the model for salvific faith. He believed God

But Jesus doesn't get a mention in Abraham's case. It would appear you don't have to believe Jesus is God incarnate in order to be saved. Not unless you think there are two kinds of salvation by faiths: OT salvation by faith and NT salvation by faith.


Where does faith come from? Faith is not something we conjure up on our own, nor is it something we are born with, nor is faith a result of diligence in study or pursuit of the spiritual. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear that faith is a gift from God, not because we deserve it, have earned it, or are worthy to have it. It is not from ourselves; it is from God. It is not obtained by our power or our free will. Faith is simply given to us by God, along with His grace and mercy, according to His holy plan and purpose, and because of that, He gets all the glory.

Abraham believed God. We can't say from where his believing God stemmed from, from his story. We certainly can't say it stemmed from God from Ephesians 2:8-9. We might say that graceful salvation is a gift of God delivered through faithv- gift and grace are the same thing afterall.

It doesn't follow however that faith is a gift from God. Faith could arise by means other than being "gifted to us aside from any involvement on our part". After which salvation is issued through that faith

So long as our faith isn't the product of our work, salvation is a gift. But it doesn't follow that just because faith must arise in us without our working (for scripture excludes our working to faith), that obtaining of faith has nothing at all to do with us.

Working for something isn't the only way an objective is achieved or a criterion met. You can achieve an objective or satisfy a criterion equally well by not doing something. It seems to me scripture focuses on excluding our contributing by commission (work, with work and commissioning being synonymous). But just as we can sin by omission, by doing nothing, so too can we achieve all sorts of things by doing nothing.

Doing nothing isn't a work. Indeed, the two words are polar opposites.

If we came to have faith by doing nothing (when we could have done something to prevent arrival at faith), then

a) our arriving at faith rests on our not having worked. Not-work isn't excluded by scripture. Work is.

b) Salvation remains a gift since we did nothing (to deserve it).
 

travelah

Active member
So many times on the forum things are assumed on both sides without defining words, phrases and other things hence we often times talk past one another. I believe this happens with "faith" as well. So lets see if we can come to an agreement on salvific faith, its origin and how it is obtained from one who is lost to one who becomes saved.

Thankfully, the Bible contains a clear definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Simply put, the biblical definition of faith is “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”

This definition of faith contains two aspects: intellectual assent and trust. Intellectual assent is believing something to be true. Trust is actually relying on the fact that the something is true. A chair is often used to help illustrate this. Intellectual assent is recognizing that a chair is a chair and agreeing that it is designed to support a person who sits on it. Trust is actually sitting in the chair.

Understanding these two aspects of faith is crucial. Many people believe certain facts about Jesus Christ. Many people will intellectually agree with the facts the Bible declares about Jesus. But knowing those facts to be true is not what the Bible means by “faith.” The biblical definition of faith requires intellectual assent to the facts and trust in the facts.

Believing that Jesus is God incarnate who died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and was resurrected is not enough. Even the demons “believe” in God and acknowledge those facts (cf. James 2:19). We must personally and fully rely on the death of Christ as the atoning sacrifice for our sins. We must “sit in the chair” of the salvation that Jesus Christ has provided. This is saving faith. The faith God requires of us for salvation is belief in what the Bible says about who Jesus is and what He accomplished and fully trusting in Jesus for that salvation (Acts 16:31). Biblical faith is always accompanied by repentance (Matthew 21:32; Mark 1:15).

The biblical definition of faith does not apply only to salvation. It is equally applicable to the rest of the Christian life. We are to believe what the Bible says, and we are to obey it. We are to believe the promises of God, and we are to live accordingly. We are to agree with the truth of God’s Word, and we are to allow ourselves to be transformed by it (Romans 12:2).

Why is this definition of faith so important? Why must trust accompany agreeing with facts? Because “without faith, it is impossible to please God” (Hebrews 11:6). Without faith, we cannot be saved (John 3:16). Without faith, the Christian life cannot be what God intends it to be (John 10:10).

Where does faith come from? Faith is not something we conjure up on our own, nor is it something we are born with, nor is faith a result of diligence in study or pursuit of the spiritual. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear that faith is a gift from God, not because we deserve it, have earned it, or are worthy to have it. It is not from ourselves; it is from God. It is not obtained by our power or our free will. Faith is simply given to us by God, along with His grace and mercy, according to His holy plan and purpose, and because of that, He gets all the glory.

Why have faith? God designed a way to distinguish between those who belong to Him and those who don’t, and it is called faith. Very simply, we need faith to please God. God tells us that it pleases Him that we believe in Him even though we cannot see Him. A key part of Hebrews 11:6 tells us that “he rewards those who earnestly seek him.” This is not to say that we have faith in God just to get something from Him. However, God loves to bless those who are obedient and faithful. We see a perfect example of this in Luke 7:50. Jesus is engaged in dialog with a sinful woman when He gives us a glimpse of why faith is so rewarding. “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” The woman believed in Jesus Christ by faith, and He rewarded her for it. Finally, faith is what sustains us to the end, knowing that by faith we will be in heaven with God for all eternity. “Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls” (1 Peter 1:8-9).got?

hope this helps !!!
I look at salvific faith as having both an object and focus, the object being the person and deity of Jesus Christ and the focus being his finished work, the cross of Calvary.
 

travelah

Active member
I would raise the question of Abraham. He had salvific faith, indeed, he is the model for salvific faith. He believed God

But Jesus doesn't get a mention in Abraham's case. It would appear you don't have to believe Jesus is God incarnate in order to be saved. Not unless you think there are two kinds of salvation by faiths: OT salvation by faith and NT salvation by faith.




Abraham believed God. We can't say from where his believing God stemmed from, from his story. We certainly can't say it stemmed from God from Ephesians 2:8-9. We might say that graceful salvation is a gift of God delivered through faithv- gift and grace are the same thing afterall.

It doesn't follow however that faith is a gift from God. Faith could arise by means other than being "gifted to us aside from any involvement on our part". After which salvation is issued through that faith

So long as our faith isn't the product of our work, salvation is a gift. But it doesn't follow that just because faith must arise in us without our working (for scripture excludes our working to faith), that obtaining of faith has nothing at all to do with us.

Working for something isn't the only way an objective is achieved or a criterion met. You can achieve an objective or satisfy a criterion equally well by not doing something. It seems to me scripture focuses on excluding our contributing by commission (work, with work and commissioning being synonymous). But just as we can sin by omission, by doing nothing, so too can we achieve all sorts of things by doing nothing.

Doing nothing isn't a work. Indeed, the two words are polar opposites.

If we came to have faith by doing nothing (when we could have done something to prevent arrival at faith), then

a) our arriving at faith rests on our not having worked. Not-work isn't excluded by scripture. Work is.

b) Salvation remains a gift since we did nothing (to deserve it).
There are distinctions between OT and NT faith; the former looks toward the promise of the Messiah, the latter at the fulfilment. Deny the deity of Christ and there is nothing of Christ in you.
 

York

Member
There are distinctions between OT and NT faith; the former looks toward the promise of the Messiah, the latter at the fulfilment. Deny the deity of Christ and there is nothing of Christ in you.

I don't see scripture saying very much about Abraham's faith (upon which his salvation) looked forward to anything very much. Abraham's faith seemed to be more concerned with God's promise in relation to something more more pressing and urgent right there and then. The lack of an heir. The diety or otherwise of Christ doesn't appear to have been a concern to him. How can you deny or otherwise something you'd not a clue about.

If you'd like to argue that Abraham looking forward to Christs day has a reference to the expression of faith whereby he was saved then by all means do so. I can recall my own salvation, which had little to do with looking forward to the promise of the Messiah. Until later, when my faith grew to be concerned about such things.

Saving faith. Not faith as it grows and considers (depending on which era it lived in)... is the question. Is there a different faith which results in salvation in the Old Testament times vs the New? You had to "believe God" in the OT. And believe "Jesus is the Christ / accept him into your heart / believe in his finished work on the cross" ... or some such formulation, in the NT?

Two different kinds of faith expression unto salvation? Hardly..
 

travelah

Active member
I don't see scripture saying very much about Abraham's faith (upon which his salvation) looked forward to anything very much. Abraham's faith seemed to be more concerned with God's promise in relation to something more more pressing and urgent right there and then. The lack of an heir.

If you'd like to argue that Abraham looking forward to Christs day has a reference to the expression of faith whereby he was saved then by all means do so. I can recall my own salvation, which had little to do with looking forward to the promise of the Messiah. Until later, when my faith grew to be concerned about such things.

Saving faith. Not faith as it grows and considers... is the question
There no difference between Abraham's faith and that of David's, both of whom looked upon the LORD as their savior. God used David to reveal the promises of Christ through the Psalms and even his own person being a type of Christ. God also did the same with the signs and types of Christ being revealed with the Tabernacle and the Levitucus laws of priesthood and holiness.

As for yourself, you don't live under the OT covenant nor would you be looking toward the promise. That is the distinction I made earlier.
 

York

Member
There no difference between Abraham's faith and that of David's, both of whom looked upon the LORD as their savior. God used David to reveal the promises of Christ through the Psalms and even his own person being a type of Christ. God also did the same with the signs and types of Christ being revealed with the Tabernacle and the Levitucus laws of priesthood and holiness.

Understood. But I am looking at the faith they had that resulted in their salvation, not expression of faith subsequent to that. Rather, I'm looking at the faith of Abraham, since the precise moment of his expression of saving faith is known to us, along with the circumstances which led him to believe God. Those had nothing to do with looking forward. There was nothing about a gospel of Christ, or sin being dealt with or any lofty such thing. It was mundane but very pressing here and now need: an heir

Abraham's case is foundational, we are told. So we do need to consider his case. There is no looking forward in it, that faith which was expressed and relating to his salvation from sin.

Me? I'm inclined to suppose Abraham came to the end of himself. The furthest destination you can get to with the self-directed Adamic life. In his case it was lack of an heir. I've no idea what he was getting his knickers in a twist about the lack of an heir. But it was patently very important to him. Go figure!

And, having run out of road the self directed life he's in a Catch 22. He can remain in the self directed life. But that won't produce an heir and so he'll have to sustain the pain of not having one. But the pain is unbearable.

Or he surrenders the self directed life. There is no option to holding onto the self directed life than surrender it. That too is painful.

So: pain of holding onto the self directed life vs pain surrendering the self directed life. All that need happen is that the pain of the former exceeds the pain of the latter. And you'll believe.

As for yourself, you don't live under the OT covenant nor would you be looking toward the promise. That is the distinction I made earlier.

In my own case, I wasn't looking to Christ as my saviour for my sin when I was saved. Like Abraham, I was in deep doo-doo in far more mundane matters in my life. For him it was lack of an heir which tortured him - to the point he took the steps he took in the attempt to self-solve the problem. I couldn't have given a hoot about the lack of an heir. Nevertheless, I was in similarly disturbing trouble that I too couldn't self-fulfill (and like Abraham, I'd gone to enormous lengths to self solve my problem).

My saving faith didn't have a clue about the gospel (other than a back of a postage stamp version: "You're in life's dumpster. You're in the dumpster because you've gone your own way. The only way you'll get out of the dumpster is for God to haul you out of it. God your only hope"

Having tried every which way to haul myself out of my pressing, everyday troubles, I believed God. I believed him because I had tried every which way to haul myself out. And since I knew I couldn't succeed...
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
Understood. But I am looking at the faith they had that resulted in their salvation. Rather, the faith of Abraham, since the precise moment of his expression of faith is known to us, along with the circumstances. Those had nothing to do with looking forward. There was nothing about a gospel of Christ, or sin being dealt with or any such thing.

Abraham's case is foundational, we are told. So we do need to consider his case. There is no looking forward in it, the faith expressed relating to his salvation.



In my own case, I wasn't looking to Christ as my saviour for my sin when I was saved. Like Abraham, I was in deep doo-doo in far more mundane matters in my life. For him it was lack of an heir which tortured him - to the point he took the steps he took in the attempt to self-solve the problem. I couldn't have given a hoot about the lack of an heir. Nevertheless, I was in similarly disturbing trouble that I too couldn't self-fulfill (and like Abraham, I'd gone to enormous lengths to self solve my problem).

My saving faith didn't have a clue about the gospel (other than a back of a postage stamp version: "You're in life's dumpster. You're in the dumpster because you've gone your own way. The only way you'll get out of the dumpster is for God to haul you out of it. God your only hope"

Having tried every which way to haul myself out of my pressing, everyday troubles, I believed God. I believed him because I had tried every which way to haul myself out. And since I knew I couldn't succeed...
Jesus is God...
 

travelah

Active member
Understood. But I am looking at the faith they had that resulted in their salvation. Rather, the faith of Abraham, since the precise moment of his expression of faith is known to us, along with the circumstances. Those had nothing to do with looking forward. There was nothing about a gospel of Christ, or sin being dealt with or any such thing.

Abraham's case is foundational, we are told. So we do need to consider his case. There is no looking forward in it, the faith expressed relating to his salvation.



In my own case, I wasn't looking to Christ as my saviour for my sin when I was saved. Like Abraham, I was in deep doo-doo in far more mundane matters in my life. For him it was lack of an heir which tortured him - to the point he took the steps he took in the attempt to self-solve the problem. I couldn't have given a hoot about the lack of an heir. Nevertheless, I was in similarly disturbing trouble that I too couldn't self-fulfill (and like Abraham, I'd gone to enormous lengths to self solve my problem).

My saving faith didn't have a clue about the gospel (other than a back of a postage stamp version: "You're in life's dumpster. You're in the dumpster because you've gone your own way. The only way you'll get out of the dumpster is for God to haul you out of it. God your only hope"

Having tried every which way to haul myself out of my pressing, everyday troubles, I believed God. I believed him because I had tried every which way to haul myself out. And since I knew I couldn't succeed...
I doubt you are saved, to be honest and forthright here. Much of the world embraces a form of religion but if it is not of Christ, it is not of God.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (Joh 3:16-18 AV)
 

civic

Well-known member
I doubt you are saved, to be honest and forthright here. Much of the world embraces a form of religion but if it is not of Christ, it is not of God.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (Joh 3:16-18 AV)
ditto !
 
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