Justification--Biblical and LDS theology

[dberrie2020]

1Thess521 said:


When I asked you in post 416
"At what point in a person's earthly are they justified (declared righteous) by God"
you answered in post 421
I'll answer it again. There isn't a point. It's a process.

now follow along and answer
and yet Scripture uses justified in the past for an event that has already happened: how do you reconcile that?
(your answer should include the word justified)

Thess--I believe that is a good point--and I'm not sure you understood or accepted my answers up to now.

But, I am willing to go back through this as many times as might be necessary.

Yes--it is past tense here:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--Christ died for all men, and justified all men of life, as a free gift--past tense. Done. Over. Christ alone. All men have been justified here(absolved of guilt)--concerning the condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall. Brought all men to the doors of eternal life--Christ alone. His Atonement. Nor yours or mine--but His. Past tense. The Blood already shed.

That justification of all men presents the opportunity for all men to inherit eternal life, by absolving(justifying) all men from the condemnation of the Fall(death and hell, as an automatic consequence of the Fall)--through the Atonement and resurrection of Christ. Free gift to all men. All men Redeemed from the Fall.

Then--one has to meet the conditions of the Redeemer--to be justified, as to their personal sinsforgiveness of sins--His grace unto life)

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

In Israel, if I understand Redemption correctly---a redeemer could go to prison and redeem one from their debt ---by paying the balance due.

That released the debtor from the sum owed(justified)--but to remain free--the debtor had to then agree to a set of conditions placed on Him by the Redeemer.(such as work in his field for seven years)

If the debtor met the conditions of the redeemer--then he was freed. If the debtor didn't--then he returned to debtor's prison. Not for the original offense--but for not meeting the Redeemer's conditions.

The same true of all men--the Redeemer released us all from debtor's prison through His Atonement and Resurrection. We now are required to meet the conditions of the Redeemer--or we suffer the "second death".

Revelation 20:12-15---King James Version
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

That is where all men are judged according to their works, and either justified unto life--or damnation.

So--"justified" is used in different senses in the Biblical text. Some instances are a reference to the free gift--others instances are to a condition, or set of conditions. The Atonement and Resurrection--free gifts. (eternal life--as an opportunity for all) Eternal life--as a personal reception--conditional.

 

[Theo1689]

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--Christ died for all men, and justified all men of life, as a free gift--past tense. Done. Over. Christ alone. All men have been justified here(absolved of guilt)--concerning the condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall. Brought all men to the doors of eternal life--Christ alone. His Atonement. Nor yours or mine--but His. Past tense. The Blood already shed.

Your misinterpretation has been refuted HERE:

What tribe of Israel are Mormons from?

To be "exalted" to "godhood" after death That's Bible supported. Show me in the Bible that it will undo my salvation. The Bible specifically calls for us to joint-heirs with Christ. To be like Him, to share his throne with him. That's what the Bible teaches. It's also the teachings you all...

forums.carm.org

Look, dberrie, your interpretation has been refuted.
Making the same false claim a million times, after you have been refuted, doesn't change the fact that you have been refuted, and it simply shows that you are throwing a temper tantrum because you didn't get the answer you wanted to here.

You are literarily the person sticking his fingers in his ears and going, 'LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!! LA LA LA LA".

 

[dberrie2020]

dberrie2020 said:

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

IOW--Christ died for all men, and justified all men of life, as a free gift--past tense. Done. Over. Christ alone. All men have been justified here(absolved of guilt)--concerning the condemnation which befell all men due to the Fall. Brought all men to the doors of eternal life--Christ alone. His Atonement. Nor yours or mine--but His. Past tense. The Blood already shed.

Your misinterpretation has been refuted HERE:

What tribe of Israel are Mormons from?

To be "exalted" to "godhood" after death That's Bible supported. Show me in the Bible that it will undo my salvation. The Bible specifically calls for us to joint-heirs with Christ. To be like Him, to share his throne with him. That's what the Bible teaches. It's also the teachings you all...

forums.carm.org

It not only doesn't refute the Biblical witness--it has nothing to do with my post above, IMO.

Theo--changing "all men" to "some men" isn't a viable refutation of what the Biblical text testifies to.

 

[Theo1689]

https://forums.carm.org/goto/post?id=92939



It not only doesn't refute the Biblical witness--it has nothing to do with my post above, IMO.

Theo--changing "all men" to "some men" isn't a viable refutation of what the Biblical text testifies to.

<Chuckle>

Hey, it's not my fault that you chose a "Sola Fide" Wikipedia articulate that REFUTED your own objections to the teaching. That's on you.

 

[dberrie2020]

Hey, it's not my fault that you chose a "Sola Fide" Wikipedia articulate that REFUTED your own objections to the teaching.

Please explain for us what you feel is refuted here?

Centrality in Protestant doctrine​

"The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works" (good deeds)."

And while you are at it--please explain how you collate that with this witness:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[Theo1689]

Please explain for us what you feel is refuted here?

Centrality in Protestant doctrine​

"The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works" (good deeds)."

Try reading the ENTIRE article.
I ALREADY quoted the parts that refuted your false claims, and Bonnie agreed with me.

I'm truly at a loss as to what you think you're accomplishing by making the same refuted claims ten million times. Why don't you try finding a PRODUCTIVE hobby, instead of wasting everyone's time repeating yourself over and over again?

And while you are at it--please explain how you collate that with this witness:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Again, CONTINUE READING through to Rom. 3 and Rom. 4.

If you are truly putting your hope in Rom. 2 for salvation, you will fail utterly.
That's what Rom. 3:10-18 says.
That's what Rom. 3:19-20 says.
That's what Rom. 3:23 says.

That's what Romans 4 says.
Oh, have we seen Rom. 4 before?
Yes, I believe we HAVE!
And I believe you keep RUNNING AWAY from it!

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

 

[dberrie2020]

Try reading the ENTIRE article.
I ALREADY quoted the parts that refuted your false claims, and Bonnie agreed with me.

LOL!!! So--Bonnie agreed with you, eh? Is that your proof it has to be true?

Well--the article here seems to agree with my observation:

Centrality in Protestant doctrine​

"The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works" (good deeds)."

The strange thing is--both you and Bonnie have already admitted that is true.

But--if you insist on being thumped again--then please inform us what works you add to faith in justification?

Crickets--lick your lips.

 

[Theo1689]

LOL!!! So--Bonnie agreed with you, eh? Is that your proof it has to be true?

Well--the article here seems to agree with my observation:

Centrality in Protestant doctrine​

"The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works" (good deeds)."

<sigh>

Again, I don't understand why you feel the need to be refuted ten million times in a row.
But ONCE AGAIN:

From the EXACT SAME website:

Sola fide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ephesians goes on to say that every person who has faith is to produce good works, according to God's plan (Eph. 2:10). These works, however, are not a cause of forgiveness but a result of forgiveness. Faith alone justifies but faith is never alone. It is followed by works.[47][48] In short, works of love are the goal of the saving faith. (1 Tim 1:5)[49]

Why do you keep IGNORING that paragraph?

But--if you insist on being thumped again--

Again, nobody's impressed with your worthless trash talk.
Grow up.

Crickets--lick your lips.

Oh, you want to hear "crickets"?

Let's listen to dberrie's response to the following (for the ten millionth time):

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

And then check out my thread about the "Mormon Tabernacle CRICKET Choir:

The Mormon Tabernacle "Cricket" Choir

One particular snarky Mormon here likes making the false claim that the "cricket choir" is singing, whenever we refute his posts, but when our isn't what he WANTS us to say. In point of fact, it is the MORMONS who are full-time participants in the "cricket choir", since they have spent...

forums.carm.org

 

[dberrie2020]

From the EXACT SAME website:

Sola fide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ephesians goes on to say that every person who has faith is to produce good works, according to God's plan (Eph. 2:10). These works, however, are not a cause of forgiveness but a result of forgiveness. Faith alone justifies but faith is never alone. It is followed by works.[47][48] In short, works of love are the goal of the saving faith. (1 Tim 1:5)[49]

That only establishes it's a faith without works in obtaining salvation.

How does that differ from the claim in the same source you use?

Centrality in Protestant doctrine​

"The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works" (good deeds)."

So--about that claim-- "Faith alone justifies but faith is never alone."---could you inform us what is added to faith in obtaining salvation--in the faith alone theology--if the faith is NEVER alone?

Crickets--stand and deliver.

 

[dberrie2020]

And I believe you keep RUNNING AWAY from it!

Eph. 2:8 ... And this is not your own doing ...
Eph. 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us ... not because of our works
Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works ...
Rom. 4:5 And to the one who does not work ... his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom. 4:6 ... the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
Rom. 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works;

For that to have any weight--you are going to have to show where anyone has claimed one is saved by works. And especially--"works"--as it applies to rituals under the Mosaic Law:

New Perspective on Paul—

New Perspective on Paul - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The new perspective on Paul represents a significant shift in the way some scholars, especial Protestant scholars, interpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.

Paul, especially in his epistle to the Romans, advocates justification through faith in Jesus Christ over justification through works of the Law. In the historic Lutheran and Reformed perspective, known as sola fide, theologians understood Paul as arguing that Christians' good works would not factor into their salvation - only their faith would count. But according to the "new" perspective, Paul was questioning only observances such as circumcision, dietary laws, and Sabbath laws (these were the 'boundary markers that set the Jews apart from the other nations), not good works in general.

So--could you collate your interpretation--with the testimony of Paul?

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

You see, Theo--you only are pitting your set of scriptures against another set of Biblical verses.

Either you are going to have to mesh them together--or admit the Bible is unreliable.

One of my explanations is found above, IE--New Perspective on Paul—

New Perspective on Paul - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bonnie]

LOL!!! So--Bonnie agreed with you, eh? Is that your proof it has to be true?

Well--the article here seems to agree with my observation:

Centrality in Protestant doctrine​

"The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works" (good deeds)."

The strange thing is--both you and Bonnie have already admitted that is true.

But--if you insist on being thumped again--then please inform us what works you add to faith in justification?

Crickets--lick your lips.

Only works that justify us are the works of Jesus Christ on the cross, done for us out of love, for "while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." And that justification is received by faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 3--
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished; 26 for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

"Nothing in my hand I bring; simply to Thy cross I cling."

 

[dberrie2020]

Only works that justify us are the works of Jesus Christ on the cross, done for us out of love

While the shed Blood of Christ is what makes it all possible--Christ never testified His work on the cross was the end of our work:

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

"Nothing in my hand I bring; simply to Thy cross I cling."

If I have nothing to hold but a cross where He hung, my life would be but dung.

 

[1Thess521]

Thess--I believe that is a good point--and I'm not sure you understood or accepted my answers up to now.

step1:
Does justified by God mean to be declared righteous by God?
if yes then
Step2 :
Is there anyone during their physical, earthly life justified by God?
if yes, then
step 3
When?

no verses that we won't interpret the same way;
: just plain answers, without changing the terminology

 

[Bonnie]

While the shed Blood of Christ is what makes it all possible--Christ never testified His work on the cross was the end of our work:

But do we do our "work' IN faith in Christ, or outside of faith in Christ Jesus? Do we do our work FOR salvation or IN salvation? Will you answer, or ignore this question, as you are wont to do?

Matthew 25:31-46---King James Version
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Did Jesus' "sheep" do their kind deeds IN salvation, or FOR salvation?

If I have nothing to hold but a cross where He hung, my life would be but dung.

You don't get the meaning of this hymn verse, do you, ,dberrie? Here is more in context for you:

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labors of my hands
Can fulfill thy law's commands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and thou alone.

Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to thee for dress;
Helpless, look to thee for grace;
Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

The author is saying he has nothing in his hands whatsoever that he can bring to Jesus Christ for salvation. He is naked, helpless, incapable of saving himself--no labor, tears, or zeal could atone for his sins. Only Jesus did and does. Only Jesus saves him. Only Jesus can "clothe" him in righteousness--JESUS' righteousness, for we have none of our own to boast about. And we receive that righteousness as a gift by faith in HIM:

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given THROUGH FAITH in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. (Rom. 3)

So, how does Paul say we get this righteousness from God? What is it based upon?