Justification

Johan said:
No, I'm saying that your inclination to punch someone is sin.
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In Catholic doctrine, the inclination to punch someone is not a sin unless the thought is deliberately nurtured. When situations occur that suddenly tempt one to sin, such as feeling the desire to punch someone, that initial desire to sin is from our fallen nature and is not a sin in itself. If one can manage to dismiss the thought immediately, there is no sin. If one dwells on the thought, deliberately taking pleasure in imagining the punching, the result is an even stronger pressure to sin, and the beginnings of a venial sin. In the extreme case of obsessing over thoughts of violence, and especially if that violence is deliberately realized, it can become mortal sin. Even when one has totally given his life over to Jesus and is, as you would call it, saved, and as we would call it, on the way to being saved...even then one is still is still susceptible to the inclination to sin. But with more and more practice in loving God and neighbor, God's help in this struggle becomes stronger, and one becomes more and more able to resist temptation.
 
balshan said:
God can only judge the thought behind the inclination. But Jesus is clear thoughts are judged.
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I agree that thoughts can be judged by God. But not all bad thoughts are equally bad. God can tell. Some thoughts come suddenly and are only a suggestion. That is not an act of the will. But when the mind holds on to that thought, it becomes an act of the will and liable to the judgement by God.

balshan said:
matt 5:27+

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
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Jesus is using hyperbole to illustrate a truth that depends on the degree. He did this to challenge the notion that all that matters is what you actually do. We understand that.

balshan said:
matt 21:

You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.
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Same thing here. How angry and for how long matters.
 
LifeIn said:
I agree that thoughts can be judged by God. But not all bad thoughts are equally bad. God can tell. Some thoughts come suddenly and are only a suggestion. That is not an act of the will. But when the mind holds on to that thought, it becomes an act of the will and liable to the judgement by God.


Jesus is using hyperbole to illustrate a truth that depends on the degree. He did this to challenge the notion that all that matters is what you actually do. We understand that.


Same thing here. How angry and for how long matters.
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Already we are seeing the RC cover ups and their get out of jail cards free.
 
LifeIn said:
Jesus is using hyperbole to illustrate a truth that depends on the degree. He did this to challenge the notion that all that matters is what you actually do. We understand that.
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I see no signs of "hyperbole" in that passage. Jesus literally means what He says. Not only the act is sin, but also the contemplation of the act. He illustrates this by a somewhat drastic instruction. If it is true that only the outward act is sin, then prevent it before it happens by mutilating yourself (gouging out an eye, cutting off a hand). That is the use of sarcasm to make a point, however.
 
and Stella asks
Stella1000 said:
How do you imagine Charles Spurgeon would respond to Ignatius of Antiochs letter to the Ephesians?
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================================
2 Timothy 4: "3
For the time will come
when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires,
they will gather around them a great number of teachers
to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth
and turn aside to myths."

It a Fake, he never wrote this "Forged Letter" in his name
Ignatius is a myth, there was no such man;
him nor Polycarp

2Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people,
even as there shall be false teachers among you,
who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,


and Stella ask
Stella1000 said:
How do you imagine Charles Spurgeon would respond to Ignatius of Antiochs letter to the Ephesians?
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Stella1000 said:
How do you imagine Charles Spurgeon would respond to Ignatius of Antiochs letter to the Ephesians?
====================================== end Stell's question

well;
what Spurgeon would say;
I don't know ?????????????

but for my teachers and myself
we say
Its a forgery, It a Fake, he never wrote this "Forged Letter" in his name
Ignatius is a myth, there was no such man
him nor Polycarp, its all a fabricated story,
and concocted to deceive
as Peter says

But there were also false prophets among the people,​
just as there will be false teachers among you.​
They will secretly introduce destructive heresies,​
even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—​
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct​
and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.​
3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you​
with fabricated stories.​
NIV​
​
Many will be seduced by their licentious ways,​
and because of these teachers​
the way of truth will be brought into disrepute.​
3 In their greed they will exploit you​
with concocted stories.​
NCB​

We find these seven mentioned not only by Eusebius (Church History III.36) but also by St. Jerome (De viris illust., c. xvi). Of later collections of Ignatian letters which have been preserved, the oldest is known as the "long recension". This collection, the author of which is unknown, dates from the latter part of the fourth century. It contains the seven genuine and six spurious letters, but even the genuine epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of its author. For this reason they are incapable of bearing witness to the original form. The spurious letters in this recension are those that purport to be from Ignatius

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Ignatius of Antioch

Biography of the bishop and writer. Ignatius was martyred at Rome sometime between 98 and 117
www.newadvent.org www.newadvent.org
 
Johan said:
So first you sin by having thoughts about punching that person and then you decide not to carry out the act. Well, it is of course the better option not to carry out such a desire. So if this desire is prevented by thoughts of love that come from God, then it can be regarded as "practicing loving others."
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That's what we regard as 'a work' coming from faith. A choice to do the right thing according to love.
 
Johan said:
Our persistent explanation is that Christ came to save sinners and carried out this mission of His with perfection. I recently explained what 2 Cor. 13:5 positively means (i.e., not only what it not means) and my explanation was met with silence from the Catholics on this board.

Your mindset is still on the level of the Pharisees. According to what Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, your desire to punch someone means that you have already punched that person in your mind. Your sinful thoughts are just as much sin as your actions. Your "striving" brings you no closer to that "holiness" that you are talking about.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matt. 5:27–28)
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Stella is a follower of Rome and a believer in the teachings of Roman Catholicism, so it really matters nothing to her what Jesus said because her loyalty is to the Roman Catholic Church whose teachings back her up by discarding as unimportant what Jesus said in His Sermon on the Mount. Stella echos the RCC hierarchy's endorsed authentic 'Roman Catholic Catechism for Adults' whose validated Roman Catholic Church teachings, and which the arrogant RCC and it's bequiled Roman Catholics believe actually speaks for God, says that 'if a person only thinks about punching another person out, then there is no sin involved - just like Stella chooses to falsely belief, taking man's word over God' Word spoken by Jesus Christ, His son, while here on earth. Stella chooses to believe that if the Roman Catholic Church says there is no sin in thinking about punching someone out, then since they have self-appointed themselves to take the place of God as "Christ on earth" and publically pronounce the lie that the "thought" is NOT sinful. Stella falsely believes that if the Roman Catholic Church says that if there is no punch, then there is no sin - end of discussion. RCC's as a whole, falsely believe that If you don't follow through with the thought, then there is no sin. So let Stella have her old RCC which ALWAYS makes up their own rules as they go along, claiming their origin is in Christ, when in fact, the truth is that their teaching comes from their "Magisterium" with the help of Roman Catholic Spin doctors, in making up their "Catechism for Adults" for the Roman Catholic Church.

A Catechism for Adults
Lesson #10
Mortal and Venial Sins
Q.#1: WHAT IS SIN?
A.#1: "Sin is any thought, word, desire, action or neglect forbidden by the law of God."

Q.#13: Are you guilty of sin if you intend to do something wrong, even though you don't actually do it?
A.#13: Yes, because the intention to offend God is in itself a sin.

In summary: Stella and RCC believe and argue that it is NOT A SIN if only the thought to harm someone is there, but no action is taken.
Jesus Christ told the crowd that just having the thought to harm someone IS A SIN.
 
Johan said:
Alright. But since Protestants have not denied the importance of good works, but merely said that they do not contribute to our salvation, I am not sure where you are going with this.
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It's the deficiency in any explanation of why works and obedience are 'important' without any relation to salvation. It comes across as paying lip service only to the principle. Just some verses that clearly make faith and works essential...

Matt 7 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like aa wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like aa foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

Matt 21 28 “What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he changed his mind and went. 30 And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

James 1 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. 24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
 
Stella1000 said:
It's the deficiency in any explanation of why works and obedience are 'important' without any relation to salvation. It comes across as paying lip service only to the principle. Just some verses that clearly make faith and works essential...
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On and on you go with your thinly veiled, yet vague, accusations. Let me just remind you that you, a depraved sinner, are not in a position to accuse others of "lip service." If you have to ask why good works are important, you have not understood their importance at all. Good works are not a means to an end. They are to be performed because our loving Father wants us to love Him back. With regard to our salvation, however, they are irrelevant. We are from beginning to end saved by grace alone, "and if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Rom. 11:6).

So what rather sounds like lip service to me is the Catholic assertion that we are not saved by works. You believe we are, but you dare not come clean.
 
Johan said:
On and on you go with your thinly veiled, yet vague, accusations. Let me just remind you that you, a depraved sinner, are not in a position to accuse others of "lip service." If you have to ask why good works are important, you have not understood their importance at all. Good works are not a means to an end. They are to be performed because our loving Father wants us to love Him back. With regard to our salvation, however, they are irrelevant. We are from beginning to end saved by grace alone, "and if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Rom. 11:6).

So what rather sounds like lip service to me is the Catholic assertion that we are not saved by works. You believe we are, but you dare not come clean.
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I never make accusations against any persons either here or in real life. I'm addressing the deficient Protestant doctrine that remains unconvincing to me as serving Scripture. Faith and works are essential in our salvation and its explained by the Church very clearly how that is using Scripture.
 
Stella1000 said:
I never make accusations against any persons either here or in real life. I'm addressing the deficient Protestant doctrine that remains unconvincing to me as serving Scripture. Faith and works are essential in our salvation and its explained by the Church very clearly how that is using Scripture.
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Johan said:
This was what I suspected all along that you wanted to bring into this discussion. Not only are our works non-essential in our salvation, but completely irrelevant.
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If works are proof of faith, that makes them relevant and necessary especially for witness and evangelising others about salvation in Christ.
 
Johan said:
On and on you go with your thinly veiled, yet vague, accusations. Let me just remind you that you, a depraved sinner, are not in a position to accuse others of "lip service." If you have to ask why good works are important, you have not understood their importance at all. Good works are not a means to an end. They are to be performed because our loving Father wants us to love Him back. With regard to our salvation, however, they are irrelevant. We are from beginning to end saved by grace alone, "and if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Rom. 11:6).

So what rather sounds like lip service to me is the Catholic assertion that we are not saved by works. You believe we are, but you dare not come clean.
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To the Catholic, this is a healthy child/parent relationship
Parent: I will keep you and love you if you behave and perform appropriately
Child: I must do good so my parent will love me and keep me.

We can all see how twisted and sick this thinking is.

To the non Catholic, this is a healthy relationship
Parent: I will always love you, not because of what you do, but because of who you are, my child.
Child: I desire to do good because I love my parent. I know I don't have to earn their love.
 
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