JWs are discouraged from Bible reading.

[organgrinder]

Greetings again organgrinder,

I suggest that the Apostles and early disciples had a consistent view of these things. We have the two speeches by Peter in Acts 2 and 3, and we have the summary of what Philip preached to the Samaritans in Acts 8:5-6,12 as "the things" concerning the Kingdom of God and the Name of Jesus Christ, and a similar summary concerning Paul's preaching in Acts 28:30-31. Now this thread suggests that the JWs have a consistent view and maintain this consistent view by means of their literature and suggesting that their members do not independently study the Bible and outside commentaries. My recommendation is that we should carefully examine the Scriptures for ourselves, also comparing the various claims of such as the JWs and many others, and principally allow the Word of God to guide us.

I like the following two references as starting points to building a proper, consistent and meaningful framework of understanding. Both talk about the return of Jesus, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth.
Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 (KJV): 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
I suggest that the above are contrary to the popular view about heaven going at death or at the return of Jesus. It is also contrary to the JW view of the 144,000 as this indicates one Kingdom, and one group of faithful.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thank you for your observation.

 

[keiw]

Greetings again kiew,

This indicates to me that you endorse the concept that your elders are spirit-guided and the means whereby new light is revealed. I would be interested in a brief summary of what is this "new light concerning the resurrection".

I agree with you that there is only One God, Yahweh, God the Father. What I find unusual with the JWs is their insistence on using the wrong form of the YHWH Name as "Jehovah", and even boasting about their unique use of this.

Seeing you are conversant with Daniel, could I ask if there is much discussion on Daniel, and is there allowed a range of opinion and discussion on the various aspects of this prophecy, or is the norm that individuals in your various congregations must accept what is dispensed and handed down in your literature and all real discussion is stifled?

What prompts me on this is the last discussion that I had with a workmate JW before he retired many years ago. Another workmate had discussed with him his belief that the King from the North of Ezekiel 38 was Russia and also the King of the North of Daniel 11:40 was also Russia. The conversation that I had with the JW was that he had told my other workmate that his theory was all wrong, and that Russia had collapsed. It was at the time of the disintegration of the Soviet Union.

At the conclusion of our talk, I asked the JW as to who he thought was the King of the North (of Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40-45). He did not give an answer, and my conclusion is that this is not revealed in the JW literature, and the reason is because these two passages are inconsistent with the JW view of end times. The JWs see no relevance in events in the Middle East with their view of the destruction of the present order of things, and also they do not believe in the conversion of a significant remnant of natural Israel at the return of Jesus as taught in Ezekiel 38 and 39.

Kind regards
Trevor

The resurrection to life or judgement. Not for any past sins. The wages of sin was paid in full at death.( Romans 6:7) The resurrected, get an opportunity to learn and apply Gods will with no satan influences around duringthe1000 year reign of Christ. But then he gets loosed for a little while, the ones who remain faithful get their names written in the scroll of life, the ones who follow satan( Gog from magog)get destroyed( Rev 20:7-13)
Russia is the king of the north.
The bible says-they go into the middle east after the hidden gold( black gold)--this occurred. We are at the end of these last days--Babylon the great will fall.

 

[keiw]

Nope.

Nope-proves-0

 

[organgrinder]

Nope-proves-0

I don't need to "prove" anything as eschatology views are difficult to "prove". I simply disagree with much of your assessment.

 

[keiw]

I don't need to "prove" anything as eschatology views are difficult to "prove". I simply disagree with much of your assessment.

You must not know what Jesus teaches then. That is a sad place to be in this world.

 

[organgrinder]

You must not know what Jesus teaches then. That is a sad place to be in this world.

I know plenty. God's word shows me what I need and when I need it.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again kiew,

The resurrection to life or judgement. Not for any past sins. The wages of sin was paid in full at death.( Romans 6:7) The resurrected, get an opportunity to learn and apply Gods will with no satan influences around duringthe1000 year reign of Christ. But then he gets loosed for a little while, the ones who remain faithful get their names written in the scroll of life, the ones who follow satan( Gog from magog)get destroyed( Rev 20:7-13)

I am not sure what portion of the above is "a new revelation". Anyway, it differs from my perspective as I believe that a significant portion of the mortal nations including natural Israel will survive Armageddon, and it is these people who will learn God's way Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14:16. I believe the faithful will be resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 years and will be given immortality and become king/priests over these mortal nations.

Russia is the king of the north.

Interesting, possibly a good start, and a better start than my JW workmate. I would like to hear how you understand ALL of Ezekiel 38 and 39 and Daniel 11:40-45, and what will be the outcome of all of this. My impression is that JWs believe that everyone apart from the faithful (mainly JWs) will be destroyed at the start of the 1000 years.

The bible says-they go into the middle east after the hidden gold( black gold)--this occurred. We are at the end of these last days--Babylon the great will fall.

I am not sure how you understand how "this occurred" and exactly what you understand by "the end of these last days". Yes, Babylon the great will fall, but not sure if JWs define how and when this will happen apart from a general destruction of everyone upon the earth apart from the JWs

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[keiw]

I know plenty. God's word shows me what I need and when I need it.

I know many who claim to follow Jesus but do not know all that he taught. Some guy with a white collar on assured them they were saved, so they did little to bother to learn and apply all that Jesus taught. They will be sad to find out that man had no clue who was saved.

 

[keiw]

Greetings again kiew,

I am not sure what portion of the above is "a new revelation". Anyway, it differs from my perspective as I believe that a significant portion of the mortal nations including natural Israel will survive Armageddon, and it is these people who will learn God's way Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14:16. I believe the faithful will be resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 years and will be given immortality and become king/priests over these mortal nations.

Interesting, possibly a good start, and a better start than my JW workmate. I would like to hear how you understand ALL of Ezekiel 38 and 39 and Daniel 11:40-45, and what will be the outcome of all of this. My impression is that JWs believe that everyone apart from the faithful (mainly JWs) will be destroyed at the start of the 1000 years.

I am not sure how you understand how "this occurred" and exactly what you understand by "the end of these last days". Yes, Babylon the great will fall, but not sure if JWs define how and when this will happen apart from a general destruction of everyone upon the earth apart from the JWs

Kind regards
Trevor

Most believe the resurrection to life or judgement was for the past sins. But its not.
At Armageddon-Rev 16--With 3 inspired expressions( like 3- 9/11,s hitting them in their hearts) from satans side, Every kingdom( govt, armies, supporters) will be mislead for patriotism to stand in opposition to Jesus at Armageddon. All religion( babylon the great) will have fallen-except Gods 1 true religion will not fall and the rest of the world comes after it. triggering Armageddon. Rev 19 is the result=99% on earth.

The 2 horned beast of Rev 13 went into the middle east after the hidden gold(black gold) iraq, libya, afganistan,-- all of a sudden the usa is the #1 oil producer. And the streets filled up with cheap heroin like never before. Coincidence? i doubt it.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again kiew,

Most believe the resurrection to life or judgement was for the past sins. But its not.

I am still confused. I do not know if what you are saying in your post is your personal view or the official JW view. Anyway it is nice to talk to a JW again. I used to encounter a few JWs who used to set up a book stand near the local lake and walk, but they have been absent since covid and also the sale of the local Kingdom Hall. Not sure when this will resume. My last real contact was with two JW ladies and their book stand in another location. As a result they gave me one of their booklets, and I did a brief review of this, and added the following thread:

JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?

JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us? Towards the end of 2019 I obtained a small JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” I spoke to two JW ladies who had a magazine and booklet stand. I raised the subject of the return of Jesus based on Acts 1:11 and Acts 3:19-21, and they raised the subject of...

forums.carm.org

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[organgrinder]

I know many who claim to follow Jesus but do not know all that he taught. Some guy with a white collar on assured them they were saved, so they did little to bother to learn and apply all that Jesus taught. They will be sad to find out that man had no clue who was saved.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[keiw]

Greetings again kiew,

I am still confused. I do not know if what you are saying in your post is your personal view or the official JW view. Anyway it is nice to talk to a JW again. I used to encounter a few JWs who used to set up a book stand near the local lake and walk, but they have been absent since covid and also the sale of the local Kingdom Hall. Not sure when this will resume. My last real contact was with two JW ladies and their book stand in another location. As a result they gave me one of their booklets, and I did a brief review of this, and added the following thread:

JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?

JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us? Towards the end of 2019 I obtained a small JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?” I spoke to two JW ladies who had a magazine and booklet stand. I raised the subject of the return of Jesus based on Acts 1:11 and Acts 3:19-21, and they raised the subject of...

forums.carm.org

Kind regards
Trevor

The bible teaches the resurrection to life or judgement-- And since the bible is clear that the wages of sin = death. Once one dies has paid those wages in full, he cannot be judged again for the same sins-- And at Romans 6:7 teaches--one is aquitted of all sin at death. Thus during the resurrection those get an opportunity to learn and apply Gods will, with no satan influences around(he will abyssed for 1000 years)--then once he is loosed for a little while-then judgement comes to all. Those who remain faithful to God then get their names written in the scroll of lif( judgement to life) but Rev 20:8 shows-many as the sands of the sea( Gog from magog) follow satan and are judged for that and destroyed. Not judged on past sins prior to the first death.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again kiew,

The bible teaches the resurrection to life or judgement-- And since the bible is clear that the wages of sin = death. Once one dies has paid those wages in full, he cannot be judged again for the same sins

I appreciate your clarification, but cannot accept your perspective here. I believe that we will be judged after the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[keiw]

Greetings again kiew,

I appreciate your clarification, but cannot accept your perspective here. I believe that we will be judged after the resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

I showed you Romans 6:7--one is acquitted of all past sin at death. It is why the scroll of life gets opened after satan is loosed. Those who remain faithful get their names written in it. The rest get destroyed. Rev 20:7-9

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again kiew,

I showed you Romans 6:7--one is acquitted of all past sin at death.

I do not accept this concept. Yes, the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23, but this is the final outcome for the wicked. We will be resurrected and then judged for our past way of life and sins 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[keiw]

Greetings again kiew,

I do not accept this concept. Yes, the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23, but this is the final outcome for the wicked. We will be resurrected and then judged for our past way of life and sins 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

Kind regards
Trevor

The bible doesn't teach 2 different things. There would be 0 sense to bring the wicked back to life just to tell them they will die. There would be 0 sense to that. Many have never even heard the name Jesus. My post is correct about the resurrection.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again kiew,

The bible doesn't teach 2 different things. There would be 0 sense to bring the wicked back to life just to tell them they will die. There would be 0 sense to that. Many have never even heard the name Jesus. My post is correct about the resurrection.

I consider that there are three categories. Those that have never heard of the Gospel will live their lives, including sin, and die and return to the dust for ever. The faithful will be raised and judged and given eternal life in the Kingdom. Then there will some of the wicked who will be raised and rejected at the judgement seat and they will after a period of time die and return to the dust. The following passage speaks of these two classes:
Daniel 12:2–3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Note above "many", not "all". Numerous other passages could be quoted to help to define these three categories.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[keiw]

Greetings again kiew,

I consider that there are three categories. Those that have never heard of the Gospel will live their lives, including sin, and die and return to the dust for ever. The faithful will be raised and judged and given eternal life in the Kingdom. Then there will some of the wicked who will be raised and rejected at the judgement seat and they will after a period of time die and return to the dust. The following passage speaks of these two classes:
Daniel 12:2–3 (KJV): 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Note above "many", not "all". Numerous other passages could be quoted to help to define these three categories.

Kind regards
Trevor

Except that Romans assures all past sin is acquitted at death. My posts are correct.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again kiew,

Except that Romans assures all past sin is acquitted at death.

The word "acquitted" is incorrect, as death is their punishment. Most individuals remain in the grave for ever, and that is the lot of the majority of mankind. But Jesus will raise the faithful and some of the wicked Daniel 12:2-3, 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 and they will be judged. Those that have been accounted righteous because of their faith will receive everlasting or immortal life, permanent for the 1000 years and beyond, for ever, not provisional as taught by the JWs. The wicked that are raised, and will be judged for their past sins and rejected and return to the grave. In their case, this second death will fulfill "the wages of sin is death" for these particular individuals.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[imJRR]

I would like to point out that every post after organgrinder's post on 12/21 has had very little to nothing at all to do with the original post and subject. As the person who began this thread, I would like to request that the subject be returned to. If you wish to talk about resurrection and judgment and end times matter with JW kiew - Please start your own thread.


Here again is the quote from the JW masters: "From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah's people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude...They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively (by itself), either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such 'Bible reading,' they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom's clergy were teaching 100 years ago..." The Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1981.

- The quote is an admission. It says that a person will not arrive at JW beliefs by reading the Bible/Scriptures. They will move away from them.

- It goes on to say that - by reading the Bible/Scriptures, a person will arrive at Christian beliefs.

- This means (for starters) that JWs don't get their beliefs from the Scriptures.

- It's not difficult to understand: Since a person will not arrive at JW beliefs by way of the Scriptures, a person cannot defend JW beliefs by way of the Scriptures either.