Kant and "The other Realm"

5wize

Well-known member
I'm helping my daughter struggling to understand Kant's Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysics of Morals for a class on Moral Philosophy for her Law degree. While doing so I noticed what I consider a glaring error in Kant's argument paralleling Christian thought. Kant thought it plausible to believe both in God and the immortality of the soul in a non-physical realm where virtue and happiness correspond. All of this to compensate for the failures introduced in a moral model while the demands of flesh pull human reason away from the virtuous. Sounds a lot like the kingdom to come where the righteous don't suffer and the wicked don't thrive.

But how do human virtues have any meaning in a realm where human needs disappear? Those human, mundane earthly bound virtues are only defined as they emerge from the human, mundane earthly bound needs that no longer press upon us in heaven. How can happiness and virtue correspond in heaven when there is no need for either? How can there even be a functional virtue and happiness in heaven as they are bound and defined only by a lack of it in this reality?

If there is going to be virtue, it has to happen here where it holds meaning.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
I'm helping my daughter struggling to understand Kant's Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysics of Morals for a class on Moral Philosophy for her Law degree. While doing so I noticed what I consider a glaring error in Kant's argument paralleling Christian thought. Kant thought it plausible to believe both in God and the immortality of the soul in a non-physical realm where virtue and happiness correspond. All of this to compensate for the failures introduced in a moral model while the demands of flesh pull human reason away from the virtuous. Sounds a lot like the kingdom to come where the righteous don't suffer and the wicked don't thrive.

But how do human virtues have any meaning in a realm where human needs disappear? Those human, mundane earthly bound virtues are only defined as they emerge from the human, mundane earthly bound needs that no longer press upon us in heaven. How can happiness and virtue correspond in heaven when there is no need for either? How can there even be a functional virtue and happiness in heaven as they are bound and defined only by a lack of it in this reality?
According to the bible, once human civilization has come to an end, the final judgment due sin is completed, God will destroy the existing heavens and earth, and create a new heavens and a new earth.
Those who are considered worthy to be there will create a new civilization, wherein righteousness dwells. God himself will dwell among us too.

The virtues described in the bible as godly will be present in this new civilization.

It'll make for a civilization that grows and never ceases.

It's the longing of the human heart to dwell in such a society.

It's my present understanding that needs will take on a different perspective in that new civilization.

Medical care will not be necessary, there will be no poor, no homeless, none of the present ideas of need.
 

5wize

Well-known member
According to the bible, once human civilization has come to an end, the final judgment due sin is completed, God will destroy the existing heavens and earth, and create a new heavens and a new earth.
Those who are considered worthy to be there will create a new civilization, wherein righteousness dwells. God himself will dwell among us too.

The virtues described in the bible as godly will be present in this new civilization.

It'll make for a civilization that grows and never ceases.

It's the longing of the human heart to dwell in such a society.

It's my present understanding that needs will take on a different perspective in that new civilization.

Medical care will not be necessary, there will be no poor, no homeless, none of the present ideas of need.
Then what becomes virtuous in it? Anything?
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
I'm helping my daughter struggling to understand Kant's Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysics of Morals for a class on Moral Philosophy for her Law degree. While doing so I noticed what I consider a glaring error in Kant's argument paralleling Christian thought. Kant thought it plausible to believe both in God and the immortality of the soul in a non-physical realm where virtue and happiness correspond. All of this to compensate for the failures introduced in a moral model while the demands of flesh pull human reason away from the virtuous. Sounds a lot like the kingdom to come where the righteous don't suffer and the wicked don't thrive.

But how do human virtues have any meaning in a realm where human needs disappear? Those human, mundane earthly bound virtues are only defined as they emerge from the human, mundane earthly bound needs that no longer press upon us in heaven. How can happiness and virtue correspond in heaven when there is no need for either? How can there even be a functional virtue and happiness in heaven as they are bound and defined only by a lack of it in this reality?

If there is going to be virtue, it has to happen here where it holds meaning.

Why a need for virtue in heaven? We are told that suffering will cease and that all tears will be wiped away. We are not told that heaven's denizens will be afforded an opportunity to exhibit courage or patience or mercy. Compassion? Yes. Mercy? No need. At least not toward others in heaven. But for at least a thousand years when people live and die on earth where selfishness will still exist, perhaps those in heaven will have an opportunity to virtuously minister to those on earth, with must better results than now since Satan will be bound.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Why a need for virtue in heaven? We are told that suffering will cease and that all tears will be wiped away. We are not told that heaven's denizens will be afforded an opportunity to exhibit courage or patience or mercy. Compassion? Yes. Mercy? No need. At least not toward others in heaven. But for at least a thousand years when people live and die on earth where selfishness will still exist, perhaps those in heaven will have an opportunity to virtuously minister to those on earth, with must better results than now since Satan will be bound.
Why is heaven needed for any of that? It would make more sense to put such a *Mash tent* in the theatre of war. It would go a long way to show skeptics that this world does have meaning and connection to the god you propose.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Why is heaven needed for any of that?
The consequences of the fall.

When Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it set his DNA, which in turn cut off the human race from YHVH.
In order for this to be rectified, it requires YHVH's input.
As Jesus said, unless we are born again, we cannot enter or see God's Kingdom.
We further read that unless our righteousness is greater than the religious people of his day, we cannot enter God's Kingdom.
We read further still that unless we become like a child, we cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

These things are key components, because they deal with primal problems that the human race is experiencing.

The new birth is further described in Ezekiel 36:25-27.


It would make more sense to put such a *Mash tent* in the theatre of war.
Only if the human race is repairable.
We are not. This is exactly why Jesus came, and died for us.

The ideas are further developed in the bible.
In Romans 5, we are taken out of being represented by Adam, and placed in the representation of Jesus.
In Romans 6, the baptism is a picture of our dying with Jesus and being resurrected with Jesus in his resurrection.

There's actually a couple of really good books on this topic. One is rather lengthy, but it's titled, Human Nature in its Fourfold State, by Thomas Boston.
The next is by Miles Stanford, The Complete Green Letters.

The Green letters are much shorter.

Romans 7 details the nature of the Law, and the problem we have as humans who are spiritually dead because of sin.
"The law is spiritual, but we are carnal, sold under sin."


Romans 8 describes that we're only capable of living a genuinely righteous and virtuous life by the power of God's Word and Spirit.




It would go a long way to show skeptics that this world does have meaning and connection to the god you propose.

Jesus IS the hospital.
By placing our trust in Jesus, God will give us a new heart and a new spirit. He will remove the old stony heart of flesh and give us a new heart of flesh.
He cleanses our sin, and makes us clean.
He then takes up residence in our lives and gives us the power and wherewithal to live in a manner that honors him.

We read in 2 Peter 1:3, that God gives us everything that pertains to life and godliness through the knowledge of God and Jesus.

These things are just an overview of what is an extremely detailed collection of things that completely change our lives, from the inside out.

Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 5:17, when we are "in Christ" we are a new creation, old things have passed away, behold! Everything is brand new!

According to Isaiah 54:17, Jeremiah 23:7, and 2 Corinthians 5:21, we're given the righteousness of YHVH.

As new creations, with the new birth, we're adopted by God as sons and daughters of God. We're siblings of Jesus. Joint heirs with Jesus.
 

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
Why is heaven needed for any of that?

Nobody said it was NEEDED for that. You seemed puzzled as to how virtue could exist in heaven. I explained a possibility as to how it could.

It would make more sense to put such a *Mash tent* in the theatre of war.

Ah, but there is now something much better than that: An easily accessible throne of grace in the midst of our spiritual warfare, and without the presence of that insufferably self righteous Alan Alda character.

It would go a long way to show skeptics that this world does have meaning and connection to the god you propose.

It does indeed.
 

5wize

Well-known member
The consequences of the fall.

When Adam ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it set his DNA, which in turn cut off the human race from YHVH.
In order for this to be rectified, it requires YHVH's input.
As Jesus said, unless we are born again, we cannot enter or see God's Kingdom.
We further read that unless our righteousness is greater than the religious people of his day, we cannot enter God's Kingdom.
We read further still that unless we become like a child, we cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

These things are key components, because they deal with primal problems that the human race is experiencing.

The new birth is further described in Ezekiel 36:25-27.



Only if the human race is repairable.
We are not. This is exactly why Jesus came, and died for us.

The ideas are further developed in the bible.
In Romans 5, we are taken out of being represented by Adam, and placed in the representation of Jesus.
In Romans 6, the baptism is a picture of our dying with Jesus and being resurrected with Jesus in his resurrection.

There's actually a couple of really good books on this topic. One is rather lengthy, but it's titled, Human Nature in its Fourfold State, by Thomas Boston.
The next is by Miles Stanford, The Complete Green Letters.

The Green letters are much shorter.

Romans 7 details the nature of the Law, and the problem we have as humans who are spiritually dead because of sin.
"The law is spiritual, but we are carnal, sold under sin."


Romans 8 describes that we're only capable of living a genuinely righteous and virtuous life by the power of God's Word and Spirit.






Jesus IS the hospital.
By placing our trust in Jesus, God will give us a new heart and a new spirit. He will remove the old stony heart of flesh and give us a new heart of flesh.
He cleanses our sin, and makes us clean.
He then takes up residence in our lives and gives us the power and wherewithal to live in a manner that honors him.

We read in 2 Peter 1:3, that God gives us everything that pertains to life and godliness through the knowledge of God and Jesus.

These things are just an overview of what is an extremely detailed collection of things that completely change our lives, from the inside out.

Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 5:17, when we are "in Christ" we are a new creation, old things have passed away, behold! Everything is brand new!

According to Isaiah 54:17, Jeremiah 23:7, and 2 Corinthians 5:21, we're given the righteousness of YHVH.

As new creations, with the new birth, we're adopted by God as sons and daughters of God. We're siblings of Jesus. Joint heirs with Jesus.
If the world is so reprobate, what is the sense in God waiting? What is to be gained?
 

SteveB

Well-known member
If the world is so reprobate, what is the sense in God waiting? What is to be gained?
Please read this very carefully.


2Pe 3:9-13 WEB 9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with us, not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wants to give everyone the opportunity to choose.





10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


Jesus said,

Mat 24:14 WEB This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

God is waiting to give everyone the choice.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Please read this very carefully.


2Pe 3:9-13 WEB 9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with us, not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wants to give everyone the opportunity to choose.


10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


Jesus said,

Mat 24:14 WEB This Good News of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

God is waiting to give everyone the choice.
But that makes no sense. Define "everybody" in this context. All that came and died and will perish because they didn't choose correctly? All that will be born that will perish for the same reason? You took stats in college I'm sure. It is already IMPOSSIBLE that all can be saved. That boat has sailed. Exactly what future do you see where all will be saved including the dead that did not choose Christ? It seems the cord wood is piling up making any assertion that God wants to give EVERYBODY a chance to choose. Everybody is defined by the time God allows this to go on. There is a new crop of "EVERYBODY" each day. This is a fool's errand.
 
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Komodo

Well-known member
I'm helping my daughter struggling to understand Kant's Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysics of Morals for a class on Moral Philosophy for her Law degree. While doing so I noticed what I consider a glaring error in Kant's argument paralleling Christian thought. Kant thought it plausible to believe both in God and the immortality of the soul in a non-physical realm where virtue and happiness correspond. All of this to compensate for the failures introduced in a moral model while the demands of flesh pull human reason away from the virtuous. Sounds a lot like the kingdom to come where the righteous don't suffer and the wicked don't thrive.

But how do human virtues have any meaning in a realm where human needs disappear? Those human, mundane earthly bound virtues are only defined as they emerge from the human, mundane earthly bound needs that no longer press upon us in heaven. How can happiness and virtue correspond in heaven when there is no need for either? How can there even be a functional virtue and happiness in heaven as they are bound and defined only by a lack of it in this reality?

If there is going to be virtue, it has to happen here where it holds meaning.
I've only read summaries of Kant's moral philosophy, but I don't think he conceived of heaven as a place in which people practiced virtue, but rather as a place in which the virtue we had practiced on earth was rewarded. Which obviously is not original with him.

I also remember one critic saying (I couldn't say whether fairly or not) that if Kant had been consistent in his claim that practicing virtue without reward was a higher good than practicing virtue and being rewarded, his "heaven" should not have been a place where people are rewarded for virtue, but a place where they eternally practice virtue and are eternally unrewarded, thus producing the highest infinity of good. Which would kind of be an eternal purgatory, wouldn't it?
 
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5wize

Well-known member
I've only read summaries of Kant's moral philosophy, but I don't think he conceived of heaven as a place in which people practiced virtue, but as a place in which the virtue we had practiced on earth was rewarded.

I also remember one critic saying (I couldn't say whether fairly or not) that if Kant had been consistent in his claim that practicing virtue without reward was a higher good than practicing virtue and being rewarded, his "heaven" should not have been a place where people are rewarded for virtue, but a place where they eternally practice virtue and are eternally unrewarded. Which would kind of be an eternal purgatory, wouldn't it?
Not a place where virtue was practiced maybe, but where it was still a "thing". Here is the direct quote, not of Kant's, but of the author summarizing Kant's view from the introduction to the specific work I am reading - "This master of moral reflection was clear that on the earthly plane, the righteous life does not always pay off Perhaps just the opposite. And yet, because practical reason cannot divorce the ideas of virtue and happiness, it is, Kant argued, plausible to believe both in God and the immortality of the soul, that is, in a realm beyond nature in which virtue and happiness correspond."

I agree. It sounds like a purgatory if its even rational to say virtue exists in a world beyond the very nature that defines what virtue is into a world that needs no expression of it. What would virtue be in a place beyond the nature that defines its need?
 
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Komodo

Well-known member
Not a place where virtue was practiced maybe, but where it was still a "thing". Here is the direct quote, not of Kant's, but of the author summarizing Kant's view from the introduction to the specific work I am reading - "This master of moral reflection was clear that on the earthly plane, the righteous life does not always pay off Perhaps just the opposite. And yet, because practical reason cannot divorce the ideas of virtue and happiness, it is, Kant argued, plausible to believe both in God and the immortality of the soul, that is, in a realm beyond nature in which virtue and happiness correspond."

I agree. It sounds like a purgatory if its even rational to say virtue exists in a world beyond the very nature that defines what virtue is into a world that needs no expression of it. What would virtue be in a place beyond the nature that defines its need?
It's hard for me to understand the concept of a place where virtue is still a thing, but in which nobody actually acts virtuously. (Is it kept on a shelf or something?) "A realm in which virtue and happiness correspond" is obviously not a very precise description, but unless it means "in which people's happiness corresponds to the virtue they had previously displayed," I would have to reach for some really fanciful scenarios in order to make sense of it. People are presented with the illusion of damsels in distress, get to rescue them with no hope of reward, then the illusion is lifted and they're rewarded and live happily ever after, until their memory of this gets wiped, then they're presented with another illusion...?

OK, I guess I still can't quite make sense of it, even with a full supply of fancy.
 

5wize

Well-known member
It's hard for me to understand the concept of a place where virtue is still a thing, but in which nobody actually acts virtuously. (Is it kept on a shelf or something?) "A realm in which virtue and happiness correspond" is obviously not a very precise description, but unless it means "in which people's happiness corresponds to the virtue they had previously displayed," I would have to reach for some really fanciful scenarios in order to make sense of it. People are presented with the illusion of damsels in distress, get to rescue them with no hope of reward, then the illusion is lifted and they're rewarded and live happily ever after, until their memory of this gets wiped, then they're presented with another illusion...?

OK, I guess I still can't quite make sense of it, even with a full supply of fancy.
I know Right!?! Makes no sense. Virtue as some disembodied solution scurrying here and there looking for a problem that will never appear? What's next?... A sentient mind without a brain or body?.... oh .... wait .......
 
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Furion

Well-known member
I'm helping my daughter struggling to understand Kant's Fundamental Principles of the Metaphysics of Morals for a class on Moral Philosophy for her Law degree. While doing so I noticed what I consider a glaring error in Kant's argument paralleling Christian thought. Kant thought it plausible to believe both in God and the immortality of the soul in a non-physical realm where virtue and happiness correspond. All of this to compensate for the failures introduced in a moral model while the demands of flesh pull human reason away from the virtuous. Sounds a lot like the kingdom to come where the righteous don't suffer and the wicked don't thrive.

But how do human virtues have any meaning in a realm where human needs disappear? Those human, mundane earthly bound virtues are only defined as they emerge from the human, mundane earthly bound needs that no longer press upon us in heaven. How can happiness and virtue correspond in heaven when there is no need for either? How can there even be a functional virtue and happiness in heaven as they are bound and defined only by a lack of it in this reality?

If there is going to be virtue, it has to happen here where it holds meaning.
Interesting. I've heard of Kant, read a little of his stuff, he draws much interest.

And here you are, not Kant, thinking you've discovered a glaring error.

Sounds like he discovered the obvious.

The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life will cause your fall, your virtues sitting idly by while your lusts rage.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Interesting. I've heard of Kant, read a little of his stuff, he draws much interest.

And here you are, not Kant, thinking you've discovered a glaring error.

Sounds like he discovered the obvious.

The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life will cause your fall, your virtues sitting idly by while your lusts rage.
I get that. But do you recognize the conundrum? When the flesh no longer calls, what's left to give virtue purpose? From what situation would it even emerge giving it an opportunity to even exist?
 
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