Keeping the commandments and LDS theology

brotherofJared

Well-known member
God can do what WE canNOT and it is utterly foolish to expect God to be held captive by our limited ability to understand fully His Nature, this side of heaven.
I think it's utterly foolish not to accept the Bible's teachings as they are written and recognize that there is no mystery. But, you all would rather hold on to your traditions.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I think it's utterly foolish not to accept the Bible's teachings as they are written and recognize that there is no mystery. But, you all would rather hold on to your traditions.

1 Cor. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Not only do you contradict Paul, but you refuse to let God be God, by trying to put Him in a box limited to your understanding.

Saying you understand God is like an ant saying he understands humans.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The only reason the Son could die is because He TOOK ON a body of flesh.
He was the God-man.
He still died. If God the Son could die--then what is your evidence the other gods could not die also? How could God subject the gods to die--and they not die?
Only one God exists, but if there were other gods (which Scripture repeatedly denies), then none of them took on a body of flesh, so they couldn't die.
What is your evidence they could not die--or did not die--or take on flesh in mortality?

If that's true--then they weren't human judges or human rulers--as Bonnie maintains.
A divine nature doesn't have the capacity of dying.
Are you claiming that God the Son didn't have a divine nature in mortality?

IOW--Jesus died for the sins of the whole world--and He wasn't even divine?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
He still died. If God the Son could die--

His deity didn't die.
Only His humanity did.

then what is your evidence the other gods could not die also?

Well, for starters, no other "gods" exist.
God was quite clear about that in the Bible.

And even if they did exist (which God says they don't), they don't have a body of flesh.

How could God subject the gods to die--and they not die?

Because they were human rulers, and not actual deities, just as James Talmage explained to you.


What is your evidence they could not die--or did not die--or take on flesh in mortality?

Again?
Seriously?

Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc. etc.

If that's true--then they weren't human judges or human rulers--as Bonnie maintains.

Certainly they were.

Are you claiming that God the Son didn't have a divine nature in mortality?

Stop asking me what I'm "claiming".
My words speak for themselves.
If I didn't write it, I'm not "claiming" it.

IOW--Jesus died for the sins of the whole world--and He wasn't even divine?

I'm sorry that you think Jesus is not divine.
True Christians believe that He is.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
But that is what Mormonism has done to the Great and Almighty God of the universe--debased him into being nothing more than an exalted man
I think being an exalted man is a pretty good thing. Jesus seems to think so to. He actually looked forward to being exalted. He considered it glorious. I don't see the issue.
Saying God is three beings in one God is like saying...oh.. I, you, and my husband are three separate human beings in one human being.... but that is not what the Bible shows us.
No. The Bible doesn't show us anything about you, your husband or me. But it does show that God the Father, His son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings.
It shows us that while Father, Son, and HS are all called "God" in the Bible, the Bible repeatedly says that GOD IS ONE GOD. NOT THREE GODS.
I don't know about that, but I do know that the Bible doesn't show us that God has three personalities and it never states that God is one being. Those are interpretations based on traditions. I have pointed out that in every instance, the text either implies or specifies other gods. I used Isaiah 45 to show it. You disagree, of course, why wouldn't you. The problem with your interpretations is that it ignores the express statements within the Bible that it speaks of many gods. You go so far as to insert verbiage to make it fit your traditions.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
His deity didn't die.
Only His humanity did.
Then God died.

Well, for starters, no other "gods" exist.
God was quite clear about that in the Bible.
And this is the proof?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Because they were human rulers, and not actual deities,
Human rulers which are gods sitting on the Divine Council--which God takes His place in the midst of? Divine gods-- humans?

I don't think so.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Then God died.

Um, no.
"God" is not a "who", it's a "what".

And this is the proof?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

You keep running away from Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc.


Human rulers which are gods sitting on the Divine Council--which God takes His place in the midst of? Divine gods-- humans?

No, they are not "gods".
They are merely CALLED "gods" because they were entrusted with the AUTHORITY of God to make judgments over the people.

I don't think so.

I don't care.
 

The Prophet

Active member
No. We understand it very well. You all don't because of your false traditions. They are three beings, each God, who together are one God. That's not hard to understand at all.
Maybe Joseph Smith, Robert Millet, James Talmage and Bruce McConkie need to be put up to speed :)

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)



The Godhead consists of the three distinct personages and three gods.. The Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit. Robert Millet A Different Jesus page 198



The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).



Bruce McConkie states: "There are three Gods...separate in personality, united in purpose, in plan, and in all attributes of perfection" (Mormon Doctrine, p.270).

 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
LOL, yes I DO Say so--can you show me where anyone was discussing Cyrus before you brought him up? I am not denying what is in Is. 45, at all. Show me where I have denied that Is. 45 mentions Cyrus.
Well, since I was using Isaiah 45 and an example, the passage is discussing Cyrus as you seem to agree that it is, Cyrus and his beliefs and God's speaking to him, he and his beliefs play an important role in the message that there is no God besides him. This is a definite reflection on the gods that Cyrus believes in and thusly, God is inferring that the Gods that Cyrus worships are not beside Jehovah. Jehovah does not deny their existence, Jehovah merely states his superiority over the gods of Cyrus.

The fact that God acknowledges other gods, even indirectly implies that God recognizes their existence, but that He is God of gods, to brow text directly from the Bible. One cannot be a God of gods if there are no other gods.
Please show me where God is acknowledging Cyrus' gods.
I already did that. You snipped it, probably didn't read it. You'll have to go back and look it up.
But DO note the bolded verses. God clearly states here that HE ALONE IS GOD and there is NO OTHER GOD but Him.
That's your interpretation. Mine is, based on the other text which indicates that there are other gods and that God himself calls them gods, that phrases you emphasized, declare God as sovereign over all other gods. They are not beside him, they are not equal to him. He never states there are no other gods. It would be foolish to do so when he constantly addresses the existence of other gods. You all claim you take the Bible as a whole, but you don't. You ignore what doesn't agree with your tradition and explain away the ones that you think you can debate.

I'm not going to rehash what I've already stated. I can't argue with nuh-uh. There's no other gods, because I said so. Bonnie, the translation goes like this, "I am Yahweh and there is no other [Yahweh], beside me there is no elohim." That is a direct contradiction to Ps 82. Is there no really no elohim at all or are they just not beside him? If we consider the Bible as a whole, which you claim you do, then obviously they exist. They are not beside or equal to him. There is no elohim beside him. We all can acknowledge that. The issue you seem to what to press is that there are no elohim period and that is simply not the case.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Well now, we are making progress
I doubt it.
yes it is entirely possible that the "gods" in Ps. 82 were mortal human beings being
It is entirely possible that you just ignored (or misread) my statement and asserted your own interpretation over it.
I don't care what Heiser thinks.
That says a lot. Do you care what anyone thinks if it disagrees with what you think?
He was reminding them OF THEIR MORTALITY.
LOL. I suppose you think that we need to be reminded to breathe also. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I doubt it.

It is entirely possible that you just ignored (or misread) my statement and asserted your own interpretation over it.

That says a lot. Do you care what anyone thinks if it disagrees with what you think?

LOL. I suppose you think that we need to be reminded to breathe also. :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
No I misread nothing. I knew what you meant. But since the "gods" in Ps. 82 sinned by favoring the wicked and not upholding the helpless, and will die like men, then that means they are mortal, sinful human beings with the lofty title of "gods." Or do you think deity sins?

Now, do you think the "gods" in Ps. 82 are DEITY BY NATURE? Yes or no? Not an essay question. I would appreciate a straight-forward answer.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Well, since I was using Isaiah 45 and an example, the passage is discussing Cyrus as you seem to agree that it is, Cyrus and his beliefs and God's speaking to him, he and his beliefs play an important role in the message that there is no God besides him. This is a definite reflection on the gods that Cyrus believes in and thusly, God is inferring that the Gods that Cyrus worships are not beside Jehovah. Jehovah does not deny their existence, Jehovah merely states his superiority over the gods of Cyrus.
[/QUOTE]

We were not discussing Cyrus, just because Cyrus is mentioned in Is. 45. But do show us where God mentions the gods that Cyrus worshiped and believed in. I cannot seem to find it.

“This is what the Lord says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:
2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains[a];
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.
3 I will give you hidden treasures,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.
5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the Lord, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.....
I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness:
I will make all his ways straight.
He will rebuild my city
and set my exiles free,
but not for a price or reward,
says the Lord Almighty.”

These are the verses that talk about Cyrus. Please show me where God here mentions the gods that Cyrus worshiped. He does say that Cyrus does not know Him, but I don't see any mention of Cyrus' gods.

But I think you did demand to see a Bible verse that says that there is only one God. I showed you one--from Isaiah 45, here. This stuff about Cyrus is just a diversionary tactic.

The fact that God acknowledges other gods, even indirectly implies that God recognizes their existence, but that He is God of gods, to brow text directly from the Bible. One cannot be a God of gods if there are no other gods.

The other "gods" mentioned in the Bible are idols or demons. Are these real, true gods BY NATURE? Paul writes about some worship that "which BY NATURE ARE NO GODS. "
I already did that. You snipped it, probably didn't read it. You'll have to go back and look it up.

That's your interpretation. Mine is, based on the other text which indicates that there are other gods and that God himself calls them gods, that phrases you emphasized, declare God as sovereign over all other gods. They are not beside him, they are not equal to him. He never states there are no other gods. It would be foolish to do so when he constantly addresses the existence of other gods. You all claim you take the Bible as a whole, but you don't. You ignore what doesn't agree with your tradition and explain away the ones that you think you can debate.

And I and Theo both have proven from the Bible that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. All others called "gods" in the bible are NOT deity by nature. IF there is ONLY one God, then the others, called "gods" in the Bible are NOT deity. But you are wrong--God does indeed state that there are not other gods! Isaiah 45 has God saying so! "Apart from Me, THERE IS NO GOD." He did not say "apart from me, other gods are not equal to me." But "Apart from Me, THERE IS NO GOD." What does "NO GOD" mean, boj?

Is. 43 NASB:

“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.
11 I, only I, am the LORD,
And there is no savior besides Me.

"Besides me" mean "apart from; except." Look it up. It does not mean "standing next to" someone.

Is. 44, ,NASB:

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:

‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me....
And you are My witnesses.
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.’”

God Himself knows of no other God.

I'm not going to rehash what I've already stated. I can't argue with nuh-uh. There's no other gods, because I said so. Bonnie, the translation goes like this, "I am Yahweh and there is no other [Yahweh], beside me there is no elohim." That is a direct contradiction to Ps 82. Is there no really no elohim at all or are they just not beside him? If we consider the Bible as a whole, which you claim you do, then obviously they exist. They are not beside or equal to him. There is no elohim beside him. We all can acknowledge that. The issue you seem to what to press is that there are no elohim period and that is simply not the case.
So, are you calling God a liar? What God means is that He alone is DEITY. There is no other Deity apart from Him. I did not say there are no other gods as my opinion, but BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO. Plainly.

Also, humans having the TITLE of "gods" does not automatically mean that they possess deity. As Ps. 82 plainly shows. And the verses in Deuteronomy where human judges are called "gods" in a few places.

Now, please answer my simple question: Do you think the "gods" in Ps. 82 are DEITY BY NATURE?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
No I misread nothing. I knew what you meant. But since the "gods" in Ps. 82 sinned by favoring the wicked and not upholding the helpless, and will die like men, then that means they are mortal, sinful human beings with the lofty title of "gods." Or do you think deity sins?

Are you claiming humans are the gods of the Divine Council--which God takes His place in?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Whatever one defines it as--God the Son still died--and that--to bring eternal life to mankind.
Have you forgotten that Jesus was fully man, so that He COULD DIE? Since Deity doesn't die? And that He gave up most of His heavenly privileges as God when He was incarnated as man in Mary's womb, so that He could be born of a woman, born under the Law, to redeem us from the curse of the Law?

"Destroy this temple, and in three days, I will raise it up." (John 2:19). So, Who raised Jesus from the dead? Doesn't the Bible tell us? Do you remember that, throughout the NT, it says that GOD raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24 and 3:15, for 2 examples). But do you not see in John 2:19 that Jesus Himself would raise up His dead body--which means His God nature did not die, since He would raise up His own human body from the dead?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Have you forgotten that Jesus was fully man, so that He COULD DIE? Since Deity doesn't die?
Are you claiming Jesus wasn't Deity when He died? Then--how could the Atonement for the sins of the world be of any effect--if Jesus was merely a man?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Are you claiming Jesus wasn't Deity when He died? Then--how could the Atonement for the sins of the world be of any effect--if Jesus was merely a man?
Why don't you read me more carefully? Have I not written on here that Jesus is and was BOTH GOD AND MAN? Where did I ever say that Jesus was MERELY A MAN? And if Jesus' God nature didn't die, but raised Jesus' corpse from the dead, then doesn't that mean that Jesus was BOTH God and man?

https://forums.carm.org/threads/keeping-the-commandments-and-lds-theology.133/page-9#post-27180

post no. 178.


post no. 166.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Are you claiming humans are the gods of the Divine Council--which God takes His place in?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
What have I written about this? Have you forgotten already? Why must I repeat myself to you? Do you think my answers will change?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
I think it's utterly foolish not to accept the Bible's teachings as they are written and recognize that there is no mystery. But, you all would rather hold on to your traditions.
So, show us from the Bible where God the Father was once a man on "an earth" who had to learn how to become a God...show us from the Bible where it says that Adam was first "Michael the archangel" and that he and Jehovah "organized" matter....

Show us from the Bible where polygamy justified Abe in God's sight....show us from the Bible where polygamy is part of the "new and everlasting covenant."

Show us from the Bible where it says that Satan and Jesus are actual brothers in the supposed pre-mortal existence.

Show us these "teachings" in the Bible, boJ.

But I guess Mormons can pick and choose what Biblical "teachings" they want to believe, eh?

1. There is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.
2. Salvation to heaven is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord and NOT by works, so no one may boast.
3. God created man from the dust of the ground.
4. Moses actually physically died and God buried him.
5. God does not live in temples built by human hands.

Do Mormons believe THESE teachings from the Bible?
 
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