Keeping the commandments and LDS theology

[Theo1689]

Whatever one defines it as--God the Son still died--and that--to bring eternal life to mankind.

Translation: "No matter what you respond, I'm going to just ignore it and repeat my same objection".


And you wonder why people ignore your "bumps".

 

[dberrie2020]

Why don't you read me more carefully? Have I not written on here that Jesus is and was BOTH GOD AND MAN? Where did I ever say that Jesus was MERELY A MAN? And if Jesus' God nature didn't die, but raised Jesus' corpse from the dead, then doesn't that mean that Jesus was BOTH God and man?

I believe you are preaching to the choir--I believe Jesus was both God and man. I was addressing your post here:

Bonnie said:
Have you forgotten that Jesus was fully man, so that He COULD DIE? Since Deity doesn't die?

So--if you believe Jesus was both God and man--how did God not die?

 

[brotherofJared]

No I misread nothing. I knew what you meant. But since the "gods" in Ps. 82 sinned by favoring the wicked and not upholding the helpless, and will die like men, then that means they are mortal, sinful human beings with the lofty title of "gods." Or do you think deity sins?

I don't think they sinned. But that's beside the point (please note that my use of the word beside doesn't mean that there are no other points). God called them gods. I believe him. You apparently don't.

And another point, which is also beside the previous to points, you aren't arguing my post. You made up something completely new.

yes it is entirely possible that the "gods" in Ps. 82 were mortal human beings

That's what you said. But I didn't say that there were mortal human beings. Your statement (that we're getting somewhere) assumes that I did and I didn't so, yes. You did misread my post - or ignored it.

 

[dberrie2020]

What have I written about this? Have you forgotten already? Why must I repeat myself to you? Do you think my answers will change?

I think the scriptures won't change:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

So--humans are the gods of the Divine Council--which God takes His place in? Where do we find God taking His place in the midst of gods in the Divine Council--as humans? Where does this occur?

 

[brotherofJared]

No I misread nothing. I knew what you meant. But since the "gods" in Ps. 82 sinned by favoring the wicked and not upholding the helpless, and will die like men, then that means they are mortal, sinful human beings with the lofty title of "gods." Or do you think deity sins?

I don't think they sinned. But that's beside the point (please note that my use of the word beside doesn't mean that there are no other points). God called them gods. I believe him. You apparently don't.

And another point, which is also beside the previous to points, you aren't arguing my post. You made up something completely new.

will die like men, then that means they are mortal

Now we're getting somewhere!! At least you recognize that in order to die they have to be mortal, but nothing in the texts suggests that they are. Where did this council take place? Was there even an earth created when that council occurred? Show me any scripture or text from any historical source that indicates that any such council took place on earth or even after the earth was created with a bunch of people (it doesn't matter who the people are).

You don't have any. But, Bonnie, we do have evidence of a god dying like a man. He was in that council. Why couldn't it be the same for the other gods in that council? Well, it can't be because you say it can't. Do you have any other evidence that says it can't be so besides your personal wit (not also, the word here "besides" doesn't mean there isn't any other evidence. It just means your wit, in this case, takes precedence over reason).

 

[brotherofJared]

Whatever one defines it as--God the Son still died--and that--to bring eternal life to mankind.

And if one God died, then it is only reasonable that other gods could die like men as well. This is a point our critics will not concede even though they must know it's true. Logically then, if the God who died, first became a man so he could die, then it stands to reason that these other gods who were told they would die like men, must also have first become men so they could die. Hmmm, It is starting to look more and more like these were the preexisting spirits of men and that all men, according to God, are the sons of the most High [God].

But our critics can't take the first leap of logic, they surely won't be able to follow the logic trail.

 

[brotherofJared]

We were not discussing Cyrus, just because Cyrus is mentioned in Is. 45. But do show us where God mentions the gods that Cyrus worshiped and believed in. I cannot seem to find it.

Again, you miss the point. Well, they say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I guess we'll just have stare at the water while the horse dies of thirst.

The other "gods" mentioned in the Bible are idols or demons.

Not the ones in Ps 82.

Paul writes about some worship that "which BY NATURE ARE NO GODS. "

Yes. Talking about idols, that's true, but then he says, for sure there are gods many and lords many, but TO US, there is but one God, the Father who is NOT Jesus Christ.

And I and Theo both have proven from the Bible that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD.

LOL. You've only proved that you don't believe the Bible as it is written.

All others called "gods" in the bible are NOT deity by nature.

Because you say so, doesn't make it true. We know what you believe and we believe you are wrong. According to the Bible, there are gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father. And that is what the Bible teaches. We have seen from the Bible that there are idols who men call gods, there are appetites that men worship as if they were gods, there are pagan gods and devil gods and then there are gods that God called gods. There is no evidence whatsoever that those gods that God stood in the midst of and called them gods are any of the previous groups. They certainly aren't idols or appetites or devil gods. So they must be real gods. God thinks so, at least, that what he said, twice. And in the second instance, they stated that the scriptures cannot be broken. I find it extremely arrogant that you all think they can be.

 

[Bonnie]

Again, you miss the point. Well, they say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I guess we'll just have stare at the water while the horse dies of thirst.

Not the ones in Ps 82.

Yes. Talking about idols, that's true, but then he says, for sure there are gods many and lords many, but TO US, there is but one God, the Father who is NOT Jesus Christ.

LOL. You've only proved that you don't believe the Bible as it is written.

Because you say so, doesn't make it true. We know what you believe and we believe you are wrong. According to the Bible, there are gods many and lords many, but to us there is but one God, the Father. And that is what the Bible teaches. We have seen from the Bible that there are idols who men call gods, there are appetites that men worship as if they were gods, there are pagan gods and devil gods and then there are gods that God called gods. There is no evidence whatsoever that those gods that God stood in the midst of and called them gods are any of the previous groups. They certainly aren't idols or appetites or devil gods. So they must be real gods. God thinks so, at least, that what he said, twice. And in the second instance, they stated that the scriptures cannot be broken. I find it extremely arrogant that you all think they can be.

According to the entire BIBLE, there is ONLY ONE GOD. ONLY ONE is true. And you have a fine way of ignoring what ELSE Paul wrote:

1 Cor. 5, ESV--4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE.”

For the pagans, there ARE gods many and lords many--look at all the temples to idols Paul saw in Athens in Acts 17--but does that mean these gods and lords actually exist? Buddhists call Buddha "Lord Buddha." He did exist. But is he a god? But does that mean he truly is Lord? To Buddhists he is. But that doesn't make their belief true.

You list groups that are sometimes referred to as "gods"--"We have seen from the Bible that there are idols who men call gods, there are appetites that men worship as if they were gods, there are pagan gods and devil gods"--and you are correct. BUT--is any of these you listed DEITY BY NATURE? What about the "pagan gods" you listed? Do they actually exist? What sort of gods are they? Aren't they the same thing as idols, since God says in the OT that the "gods of the nations are IDOLS"? And pagans are of the nations, are they not? Is Shiva a real god? Vishnu? Hanuman? Ganesh? These are gods that many in India worship. They are pagans. So, why then do you have "pagan gods" listed separately from idols?

But you say there is no evidence that the "gods" in Ps. 82 are in this group. I would agree with you. But there is ONE MORE CATEGORY you refuse to consider--human beings called "gods" because they judge for god and are in a position of power.

So, IF these "gods" in Ps. 82 are NOT in the list you provided--and I agree with you there--and IF they are REAL Gods....why are they favoring the wicked and judging UNjustly and not upholding justice to the weak? That would make them SINNERS, would it not? Like demons? Like fallen mankind? Which is why God reminds them that "your will die like men and fall like any prince."

So, while you say the "gods" in Ps. 82 are REAL gods, are they DEITY BY NATURE? Yes or no?

 

[Bonnie]

Once more compare the opening of Ps. 82 to Isaiah 3:

Is 3:
13 The Lord takes his place in court;
he rises to judge the people.
14 The Lord enters into judgment
against the elders and leaders of his people...

Where is this "court"?

Now Ps. 82, ESV:

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked?

I think the divine council could refer to God surrounded by His holy angels. But in the midst of the "gods" He holds judgment....Is. 3 says that "the LORD enters into judgement against the elders and the leaders of His people....

God proceeds to ask these "gods" in Ps. 82,

How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.”

Now, Is. 3:

“It is you who have devoured the vineyard,
the spoil of the poor is in your houses.
15 What do you mean by crushing my people,
by grinding the face of the poor?”
declares the Lord God of hosts.

"...Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked... (Ps . 82)"

Now, take a look at Is. 1:

How the faithful city
has become a whore,
she who was full of justice!
Righteousness lodged in her,
but now murderers.
22 Your silver has become dross,
your best wine mixed with water.
23 Your princes are rebels
and companions of thieves.
Everyone loves a bribe
and runs after gifts.
They do not bring justice to the fatherless,
and the widow's cause does not come to them.

"...Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked... (Ps . 82)"

Now, Isaiah 10:

Woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees,
and the writers who keep writing oppression,
2 to turn aside the needy from justice
and to rob the poor of my people of their right,
that widows may be their spoil,
and that they may make the fatherless their prey!

"...Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked... (Ps . 82)"

Still say these "gods" in Ps. 82 are REAL gods? NOT corrupt human rulers with the title of "god"? Since they "favor the wicked" and "judge unjustly"--just as the very sinful and human rulers and elders did, in the Isaiah verses?

Are these "gods" in Ps. 82 DEITY BY NATURE? Yes or no?

 

[brotherofJared]

"Besides me" mean "apart from; except." Look it up. It does not mean "standing next to" someone.

LOL. In my last two posts, I used examples that show that besides me doesn't mean there are no others. In fact, it implies there are others because there are. We can see there are because God says there are. See Ps 82.

So, are you calling God a liar?

No, I'm not. LOL. You all are.

What God means is that He alone is DEITY.

I don't need you to tell me what God "means". It depends on which beings are are looking at. If you believe that Jesus Christ is God and God the Father is God, then "they" are God, not HE, THEY. More than one. See Paul's explanation if you don't get it. If we're talking about the beings in the council of El who are not God but are gods, we don't know what God means, but we do know this, God said, they are gods. That means they are gods. The same gods that exist in Genesis (I suppose you think those elohim were judges).

I did not say there are no other gods as my opinion, but BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO. Plainly.

Hmmm. Plainly so.

Also, humans having the TITLE of "gods" does not automatically mean that they possess deity. As Ps. 82 plainly shows.

LOL. There is no evidence in Ps 82 that plainly shows that they are human judges. That's your assertion but has yet to be proven. You don't care what the evidence shows. You said that you don't care to Heiser said. He's on your side. He's a noted scholar. You are not. And you don't care what he said. Obviously, you don't care about any evidence that disagrees with your opinion. So, here, we're just arguing opinions. But this much we do know. They are not demons and they are not idols. They must be some other kind of gods. The debate seems to be whether or not they are human gods or not. I contend that this divine council didn't occur here on earth. The tone of the psalm is a heavenly event. As far as I know, there aren't any humans there that can die... there. That would be some other kind of sci-fi story. I agree that they are going to be humans, but they aren't human there. You seem to think that angels can be called gods. I would accept that those beings are angels. But do you know of any angels who might die like men? We do. One was called Jehovah. Another was called Michael.

 

[brotherofJared]

Are you claiming humans are the gods of the Divine Council--which God takes His place in?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

haha. Yeah. That's what it looks like, doesn't it.

 

[brotherofJared]

So, show us from the Bible where God the Father was once a man on "an earth"

Already done, but like everything else we say, you ignored it and continue asking innane questions (it becomes innane when the same question gets asked over and over when it has been answered - you all must agree with that because that's the basis for banning one of the Mormon posters on this forum).

Bible where it says that Adam was first "Michael the archangel" and that he and Jehovah "organized" matter....

LOL. Misdirection. What does any of that have to do with Bible explicitly showing that God is three beings? "Oh yeah? Well, but but but, you can't answer the questions about Michael and your temple endowments..." LOL. The argument, the real argument, is not being addressed.

 

[brotherofJared]

According to the entire BIBLE, there is ONLY ONE GOD. ONLY ONE is true.

That's not the argument. You aren't offering anything here that we don't agree with. There is only one God that is true. Who did Paul say that God is? It is the Father NOT the Son. But you believe the Son is God also, right? Doesn't that make two Gods?

And you have a fine way of ignoring what ELSE Paul wrote:

LOL. And you have a fine way of ignoring what ELSE Paul said, that TO US there is but one God, the Father who is not Jesus Christ. Is Jesus Christ also God? Don't you believe that Jesus is God?

 

[brotherofJared]

Once more compare the opening of Ps. 82 to Isaiah 3:



Where is this "court"?

Now Ps. 82, ESV:



I think the divine council could refer to God surrounded by His holy angels. But in the midst of the "gods" He holds judgment....Is. 3 says that "the LORD enters into judgement against the elders and the leaders of His people....

God proceeds to ask these "gods" in Ps. 82,



Now, Is. 3:



"...Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked... (Ps . 82)"

Now, take a look at Is. 1:



"...Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked... (Ps . 82)"

Now, Isaiah 10:

I addressed your observations comparing the two passages here.

 

[Theo1689]

That's not the argument. You aren't offering anything here that we don't agree with. There is only one God that is true. Who did Paul say that God is? It is the Father NOT the Son.

Paul NEVER said that the true God is "not the Son".
You are ASSUMING a "mutual exclusion" that God must be EITHER the Father OR the Son, but not both, and Paul NEVER teaches that.

Quite the contrary, Paul explicitly refers to:

"the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever." (Rom. 9:5)
"our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Tit. 2:13)

But you believe the Son is God also, right? Doesn't that make two Gods?

Nope.
You are ASSUMING unitarianism, "only one person per God".

LOL. And you have a fine way of ignoring what ELSE Paul said, that TO US there is but one God,

Actually, YOU are the one "ignoring what ELSE Paul said".
YOU are ignoring where he said, "There is NO GOD ELSE but ONE."

Now, you are either unaware of alternative interpretations of your proof-text, or else you are pretending there aren't any, since your false theology requires you to ignore them.

FIRST Paul says, "there is NO GOD ELSE but ONE."
That is simply a statement of fact.
Only one God. Period.

Then He says, 'to us there is but on God".
Now we have to ask ourselves, is he saying that because there are other gods who actually exist (denied throughout the Bible), but they simply aren't relevant "to us"?

Or is he saying that because there is only one God "to us", because "we" recognize only one true god exists, and all the others are false gods and idols? I think it's the latter.

There is also a larger aspect of Paul's teaching that you are missing.

Paul was a devout Jew, and prayed the Sh'ma, every single day:


Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The <YHWH> our God, the <YHWH> is one.

This is the Jewish prayer/proclamation that YHWH was the only god who exists.
He is both "God" and "Lord". "God" is WHAT He is ("elohim" = "a god"), and "YHWH" is WHO He is (His name, YHWH, Yahweh, or Jehovah).

So what Paul is doing in 1 Cor. 8:6 is giving an EXPANSION of the Sh'ma, which teaches only one god exists, and including BOTH the Father and the Son as that one True God:

Deut. 6	1 Cor. 8
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.	yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Both are God.
Both are LORD (which is the name of God).

But for convention, to distinguish between them, Paul generally refers to the Father as "God" (which does not deny that He is also Lord), and generally refers to the Son as "Lord" (which does not deny that He is also God).

It is irrational to take a passage where Paul includes both the Father and the Son as the one true God of Israel, and misrepresent that as Paul allegedly claiming that they are two gods, or that Jesus isn't God.

the Father who is not Jesus Christ. Is Jesus Christ also God? Don't you believe that Jesus is God?

"Father" and "Son" refer to WHO they are.
"God" refers to WHAT they are.

Jesus is Deity.
The Father is Deity.
There is only one Deity.

Deity is not a "person".
Deity is "what" they are.

 

[Bonnie]

Paul NEVER said that the true God is "not the Son".
You are ASSUMING a "mutual exclusion" that God must be EITHER the Father OR the Son, but not both, and Paul NEVER teaches that.

Quite the contrary, Paul explicitly refers to:

"the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever." (Rom. 9:5)
"our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" (Tit. 2:13)




Nope.
You are ASSUMING unitarianism, "only one person per God".



Actually, YOU are the one "ignoring what ELSE Paul said".
YOU are ignoring where he said, "There is NO GOD ELSE but ONE."

Now, you are either unaware of alternative interpretations of your proof-text, or else you are pretending there aren't any, since your false theology requires you to ignore them.

FIRST Paul says, "there is NO GOD ELSE but ONE."
That is simply a statement of fact.
Only one God. Period.

Then He says, 'to us there is but on God".
Now we have to ask ourselves, is he saying that because there are other gods who actually exist (denied throughout the Bible), but they simply aren't relevant "to us"?

Or is he saying that because there is only one God "to us", because "we" recognize only one true god exists, and all the others are false gods and idols? I think it's the latter.

There is also a larger aspect of Paul's teaching that you are missing.

Paul was a devout Jew, and prayed the Sh'ma, every single day:


Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The <YHWH> our God, the <YHWH> is one.

This is the Jewish prayer/proclamation that YHWH was the only god who exists.
He is both "God" and "Lord". "God" is WHAT He is ("elohim" = "a god"), and "YHWH" is WHO He is (His name, YHWH, Yahweh, or Jehovah).

So what Paul is doing in 1 Cor. 8:6 is giving an EXPANSION of the Sh'ma, which teaches only one god exists, and including BOTH the Father and the Son as that one True God:

Deut. 6	1 Cor. 8
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.	yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Both are God.
Both are LORD (which is the name of God).

But for convention, to distinguish between them, Paul generally refers to the Father as "God" (which does not deny that He is also Lord), and generally refers to the Son as "Lord" (which does not deny that He is also God).

It is irrational to take a passage where Paul includes both the Father and the Son as the one true God of Israel, and misrepresent that as Paul allegedly claiming that they are two gods, or that Jesus isn't God.




"Father" and "Son" refer to WHO they are.
"God" refers to WHAT they are.

Jesus is Deity.
The Father is Deity.
There is only one Deity.

Deity is not a "person".
Deity is "what" they are.

Thanks for this great analysis, Theo. And it is very clear, too. Hope you archive it!

 

[dberrie2020]

According to the entire BIBLE, there is ONLY ONE GOD.

Seeing the Biblical NT separates out God the Son from the "one God"--and appoints the "one God" as the God and Father of Jesus Christ--that isn't going to get the mileage you might hope for.

First--you might want to explain to us why God the Son is separated out from the "one God"--and claimed the "one God" was His God and Father:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

 

[dberrie2020]

FIRST Paul says, "there is NO GOD ELSE but ONE."
That is simply a statement of fact.
Only one God. Period.

That's what.

We're looking for who.

So--Who did Paul identify as the "one God"?

 

[The Prophet]

Then God died.


And this is the proof?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:


Human rulers which are gods sitting on the Divine Council--which God takes His place in the midst of? Divine gods-- humans?

I don't think so.

God did die

 

[The Prophet]

God did die

God did die according to Revelations 1:18 and 2:8 ​