Keeping the commandments and LDS theology

Theo1689

Well-known member
Seeing the Biblical NT separates out God the Son from the "one God"--and appoints the "one God" as the God and Father of Jesus Christ--that isn't going to get the mileage you might hope for.

First of all, NO Biblical text DENIES that Jesus is God.
And many Biblical texts AFFIRM it

You seem to be trying to pit Scripture against Scripture, by trying to argue that some texts emphasize the Father being God, to deny that ONLY ONE GOD exists.

BOTH are true.
But you keep RUNNING AWAY from all the "only one god exists", passages, so nothing ever gets accomplished.

First--you might want to explain to us why God the Son is separated out from the "one God"--and claimed the "one God" was His God and Father:

Why don't we finish BONNIE's discussion (instead of you constantly running away from it),a and THEN we can address your criticism.

But no, that doesn't jive with your "the Mormon needs to take total control over the discussion" tactic, does it?

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Yes, the Father is God. But that doesn't preclude Him from being Lord.
And Jesus is Lord. But that doesn't preclude Him from being God.

After all, Paul wrote the above.
But Paul ALSO wrote the following:

Rom. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Tit. 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


So clearly Paul recognized Jesus as "God".

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Yes, there IS "one God".
Too bad you reject that marvellous Biblical truth.
We've been showing this to you for months, Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc.

But this doesn't deny that Jesus is God.
And yes, "the man Christ Jesus".
Jesus is both God and man.
John 1:1-14 tells us that Jesus was the word who was God, and then was made flesh.

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

"Father" often means "Creator" (cf. Isa. 64:8, Mal. 2:10).
This isn't referring to "Heavenly Father", as distinct from the Son.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Again, this doesn't deny that Jesus is God.

Do you know what else John taught (that you seem to have IGNORED)?:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. [...]. 14 Now the Word became flesh and took up residence among us. We saw his glory—the glory of the one and only, full of grace and truth, who came from the Father.

John 20:28 Thomas replied to [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!* 59 Then they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus was hidden from them and went out from the temple area.

*I am! is an explicit claim to deity. Although each occurrence of the phrase “I am” in the Fourth Gospel needs to be examined individually in context to see if an association with Exod 3:14 is present, it seems clear that this is the case here (as the response of the Jewish authorities in the following verse shows).


Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, [...]

Yes, the Father is "Lord", and the Son is "Lord", yet there is only one "Lord".

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, [...]

Yes, God the Father is God.
But that doesn't deny that Jesus is likewise God.

The apostle Peter wrote 1 Peter.
He also wrote 2 Peter.

And this is what he wrote there:

2Pet. 1:1 From Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ, have been granted a faith just as precious as ours.

Peter calls Jesus, "Our GOD and Saviour".
So don't try to deny Peter believes Jesus is God.

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 [...]I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Yes, Jesus did not ascend to Himself.
He ascended to the Father.
But that doesn't deny that Jesus is God.

Continue reading for about 11 more verses:

John 20:28 Thomas replied to [Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, [...]

Yes, Jesus' Father is God. Nobody ever denied that.
But that doesn't mean that Jesus isn't God.

Paul wrote Ephesians.

He also wrote the following:

Rom. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Tit. 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,


Clearly Paul recognized Jesus as God.

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 [...] therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Yes.... But if you read Heb. 1:9, then hopefully you read Heb. 1:8 just prior to it (I mean, you wouldn't be "proof-texting" and ripping verses out of their context, would you?):

Heb. 1:8 but of the Son he says,
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.

God calls Jesus ("the Son") "God".


So it looks like you've STRUCK OUT at every turn.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
First of all, NO Biblical text DENIES that Jesus is God.
And many Biblical texts AFFIRM it

Btw, since you LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE the ECF's so much, and you seem to need convincing that Jesus is God, I offer the following:


1Clem. 16:2 The scepter of the majesty of God, even our Lord Jesus Christ, came not in the pomp of arrogance or of pride, [...]

2Clem. 1:1 Brethren, we ought so to think of Jesus Christ, as of God, as of the Judge of quick and dead.

Eph. 1:0 Ignatius, also called Theophorus, sends heartiest good wishes for unalloyed joy in Jesus Christ to the Church at Ephesus in Asia; [...] predestined, before time was, to be—to her abiding and unchanging glory—forever united and chosen, through real suffering, by the will of the Father and Jesus Christ our God.

Eph. 17:2 Why do we not all become wise, having received knowledge of God, that is, Jesus Christ! Why do we perish in folly, failing to appreciate the gift which the Lord has sent us in truth!

Eph. 18:2 The fact is, our God Jesus Christ was conceived by Mary according to God’s dispensation of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit.

Tral. 7:1 So, then, beware of such! And you will do so if you are not puffed up and cling inseparably to God Jesus Christ, to the bishop, and to the precepts of the Apostles.

Rom. 1:0 Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the transcendent Majesty of the Most High Father and of Jesus Christ, His only Son; the church by the will of Him who willed all things that exist, beloved and illuminated through the faith and love of Jesus Christ our God; which also presides in the chief place of the Roman territory; a church worthy of God, [...] her do I therefore salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father. Heartiest good wishes for unimpaired joy in Jesus Christ our God, to those who are united in flesh and spirit by every commandment of His; who imperturbably enjoy the full measure of God’s grace and have every foreign stain filtered out of them.

Rom. 3:3 Nothing that is seen is good. Our God Jesus Christ certainly is the more clearly seen now that He is in the Father. Whenever Christianity is hated by the world, what counts is not power of persuasion, but greatness.

Smyr. 1:1 I extol Jesus Christ, the God who has granted you such wisdom. For I have observed that you are thoroughly trained in unshaken faith, being nailed, as it were, to the Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ both in body and in soul, [...]

Smyr. 10:1 [...] it was good of you to give them a warm reception as to servants of Christ God. For their part, they thank the Lord on your behalf, because you offered them losers.

Poly. 8:3 I say good-bye to you all forever in Jesus Christ our God, through whom I wish you to be united with God[...]

Phili. 12:2 [...] may He grant unto you a lot and portion among His saints, and to us with you, and to all that are under heaven, who shall believe on our Lord and God Jesus Christ and on His Father that raised him from the dead.
 

The Prophet

Active member
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Theo1689

Well-known member
So--Who did Paul identify as the "one God"?

Well, let's start here, shall we?

Rom. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Tit. 2:13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Well, let's start here, shall we?

Rom. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Tit. 2:13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
As I have already stated--God the Son is separated out from the specific designation of the NT "one God":

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

So--who did Paul specifically designate as the "one God"? Where did Paul ever designate God the Son as the "one God"?

Answer--God the Son was always separated out from the specific term "one God". That's how Paul maintained His monotheism--he only designated One as the "one God"--IE--God the Father--excluding God the Son from that specific designation.

Don't you find that somewhat strange, IE--the very God of the OT---is separated out from the "one God"--and claims in the NT--He also has a God and Father?

How do you explain that? Collate the OT testimony--with the NT witness?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You might want to relate that to those who question whether gods can die--if they were real, heavenly gods--in Psalm 82.
Have you forgotten that Jesus is BOTH 100% God and 100% man? Did Jesus' God nature die, when Jesus died on the cross? Since Jesus said in John 2:19 "destroy this temple and in three days, I will raise it up"?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
LOL. In my last two posts, I used examples that show that besides me doesn't mean there are no others. In fact, it implies there are others because there are. We can see there are because God says there are. See Ps 82.

No, I'm not. LOL. You all are.

I don't need you to tell me what God "means". It depends on which beings are are looking at. If you believe that Jesus Christ is God and God the Father is God, then "they" are God, not HE, THEY. More than one. See Paul's explanation if you don't get it. If we're talking about the beings in the council of El who are not God but are gods, we don't know what God means, but we do know this, God said, they are gods. That means they are gods. The same gods that exist in Genesis (I suppose you think those elohim were judges).

Hmmm. Plainly so.

LOL. There is no evidence in Ps 82 that plainly shows that they are human judges. That's your assertion but has yet to be proven. You don't care what the evidence shows. You said that you don't care to Heiser said. He's on your side. He's a noted scholar. You are not. And you don't care what he said. Obviously, you don't care about any evidence that disagrees with your opinion. So, here, we're just arguing opinions. But this much we do know. They are not demons and they are not idols. They must be some other kind of gods. The debate seems to be whether or not they are human gods or not. I contend that this divine council didn't occur here on earth. The tone of the psalm is a heavenly event. As far as I know, there aren't any humans there that can die... there. That would be some other kind of sci-fi story. I agree that they are going to be humans, but they aren't human there. You seem to think that angels can be called gods. I would accept that those beings are angels. But do you know of any angels who might die like men? We do. One was called Jehovah. Another was called Michael. ;)
Sorry, but "besides me" doesn't mean "next to me" or "compared to me." in this context, It means "apart from, except" And God makes it plain that HE ALONE IS GOD. All others called "gods" are "so-called Gods" and "by nature no Gods." What you wrote does NOT show that there are other Gods NEXT TO God. In fact, He flatly denies this, saying "apart from Me, THERE IS NO GOD." What part of "NO GOD" do you not understand?

The tone of the Psalm is both heavenly and earthly, since true gods would not judge unjustly, nor favor the wicked. That would make them sinners like demon--wouldn't it? And we know it is earthly as well, because it exhorts these "gods" to uphold the fatherless and helpless. And there were fatherless and weak people in Israel when Asaph wrote this Psalm. Also, it could not have happened BEFORE the earth was formed, because it says "all the foundations of the EARTH ARE shaken." EARTH--which you said hadn't been formed yet. And it says "ARE" SHAKEN. Present tense.

I never said that the "gods" in Ps. 82 are going to be humans. But Jesus Christ was never an angel; prior to His Incarnation, He was the eternal Word of God Who was God. NOT a created angel. And where does the Bible say that Adam was first Michael the archangel? Show me that, boJ. Angels are not human and do not become human.

But as I said, I think that the "divine assembly" here could mean angels surrounding God as He makes His judgment on the unjust judges--"gods"--on earth, during Asaph's time.

Heiser isn't the Bible. Ergo, he has no authority. He is entitled to his opinion, but that doesn't mean he is correct. Plus, he has stated many times that Mormons misuse his research on this. So, why do you keep mentioning him--getting desperate? Does he think these verses are prophetic as to what would happen to Jesus at the hand of the Sanhedrin, a thousand years later?

I can mention a scholar who does NOT agree with Heiser...that just shows a range of scholarly opinions out there. But I am ONLY going by the bible.
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Sorry, but "besides me" doesn't mean "next to me" or "compared to me." in this context, It means "apart from, except" And God makes it plain that HE ALONE IS GOD. All others called "gods" are "so-called Gods" and "by nature no Gods."

What is there about the Divine Council of the gods--which states they are "so-called Gods"--or--"by nature no gods"?

Where does Psalms make any such claim?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Bonnie--what does that scripture testify God takes His place in--and what does it identify He is in the midst of?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You seem to be trying to pit Scripture against Scripture, by trying to argue that some texts emphasize the Father being God, to deny that ONLY ONE GOD exists.

BOTH are true.

The NT authors testified the only "one God" was God the Father--to the exclusion of God the Son:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

How does one fit that into the theology pawned here by the critics? That fits LDS theology well.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Well, let's start here, shall we?

Rom. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Tit. 2:13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
As I have already stated--God the Son is separated out from the specific designation of the NT "one God":

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

For the millionth time, you are simply WRONG.

Paul did NOT "exclude" Jesus from being the "one true God".
He excluded Jesus from being the "Father".
And Jesus is NOT the Father.

But Paul DID recognize Jesus as "God":

Well, let's start here, shall we?

Rom. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Tit. 2:13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.


Now, unfortunately you seem to care more about "exact words" and "syllables" than you care about MEANING. It's not a "magical incantation" that the syllables open up a door or something.

We've established that Paul believes there is only ONE true GOd.

I've established (whether you wish to accept it or not) that Jesus is "God".

So the question YOU need to answer is whether you think Paul considered Jesus the "true God", or a "false God". I believe He is the TRUE God, since there is only ONE True God, and Jesus is God.

So--who did Paul specifically designate as the "one God"? Where did Paul ever designate God the Son as the "one God"?

Pay attention.

The answer is JESUS:
Well, let's start here, shall we?

Rom. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Tit. 2:13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Answer--God the Son was always separated out from the specific term "one God". That's how Paul maintained His monotheism--he only designated One as the "one God"--IE--God the Father--excluding God the Son from that specific designation.

Wrong again.

In 1 Cor. 8:6, Paul included BOTH the Father and the Son as the one true "God and Lord" of the Sh'ma of Deut. 6:4.

Don't you find that somewhat strange, IE--the very God of the OT---is separated out from the "one God"--and claims in the NT--He also has a God and Father?

How do you explain that? Collate the OT testimony--with the NT witness?

If you want me to share my beliefs with you, take your questions to the proper forum.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
What is there about the Divine Council of the gods--which states they are "so-called Gods"--or--"by nature no gods"?

Where does Psalms make any such claim?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Bonnie--what does that scripture testify God takes His place in--and what does it identify He is in the midst of?
Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa. 45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, John 17:3, etc. and etc. Is there more than one TRUE God?

Does full deity die like men? Would full deity judge unjustly or favor the wicked? Why would deity need to be told to uphold the fatherless and helpless? Why would full deity "walk about in darkness" and "know nothing"?

Are the "gods" in Ps. 82 deity by nature? Yes or no? And when are you going to answer my simple questions about this Psalm? Would you like me to repeat them?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
For the millionth time, you are simply WRONG.

Paul did NOT "exclude" Jesus from being the "one true God".
He excluded Jesus from being the "Father".
And Jesus is NOT the Father.

But Paul DID recognize Jesus as "God":

Well, let's start here, shall we?

Rom. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Tit. 2:13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.


Now, unfortunately you seem to care more about "exact words" and "syllables" than you care about MEANING. It's not a "magical incantation" that the syllables open up a door or something.

We've established that Paul believes there is only ONE true GOd.

I've established (whether you wish to accept it or not) that Jesus is "God".

So the question YOU need to answer is whether you think Paul considered Jesus the "true God", or a "false God". I believe He is the TRUE God, since there is only ONE True God, and Jesus is God.



Pay attention.

The answer is JESUS:
Well, let's start here, shall we?

Rom. 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

Tit. 2:13 as we wait for the happy fulfillment of our hope in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.



Wrong again.

In 1 Cor. 8:6, Paul included BOTH the Father and the Son as the one true "God and Lord" of the Sh'ma of Deut. 6:4.



If you want me to share my beliefs with you, take your questions to the proper forum.
Good post, Theo. Also, when the Bible says that God is God of Jesus, God is God of Jesus' humanity, but not of His DIVINITY. How He can do that--I don't know. But then, I expect the great and almighty and omnipotent and omniscience God of the Bible to be able to do what we mere mortals cannot. The God Mormons worship is a pretty limited God/god--isn't he?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
LOL. In my last two posts, I used examples that show that besides me doesn't mean there are no others. In fact, it implies there are others because there are. We can see there are because God says there are. See Ps 82.

First of all, you don't seem to understand what "implies" means. Neither Deut. 4:35 or any other passage we've brought up "implies" the existence of other gods. And to say it implies it "because their are [other gods]" is not only begging the question, but it is NOT that verse "implying" any such thing. As for your Ps. 82 reference, it doesn't teach that there are other gods, you simply INTERPRET it this way, and your very own scholar "James Talmage" disagrees with you. I find it incredibly hypocritical that you would "demand" that we accept the heretic Michael Heiser's opinion, when you refuse to accept your own Mormon scholar's opinion.

As for what "besides me" means, you are (again) simply wrong.
It does not mean "alongside", or "in close proximity". Indeed, such a meaning would be incredibly random, arbitrary, and nonsensical. Why would God be interested in telling us whether he is physically near other gods?

It is the Strong's number H305, and here are a couple of examples of its usage in other passage:

Gen 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.

Notice that doesn't mean that the second famine was physically "beside" the first famine.
It was a famine "OTHER THAN" the first famine.

Exo 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.

Notice that doesn't mean that the men were physically "beside" the children.
It means that they were counting me, OTHER THAN children.


Now let's look at the Greek Septuagint (LXX) , and see if THEY understood the meaning of the Hebrew term to mean "along the side of", or "other than".

Deut. 4:35 ὥστε .... εἰδῆσαί .... σε ὅτι κύριος ὁ θεός σου ... οὗτος θεός ἐστιν
....................... that might-know you that Lord the God your .....this God ... is

35 That thou mightest know that the Lord he is God, and there is no other besides him.

... καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν ἔτι πλὴν αὐτοῦ
... and not .. is ....yet except him


So we see that in the Greek, there is nothing about "physical locality", or "alongside of", it means "none EXCEPT him".

LOL. There is no evidence in Ps 82 that plainly shows that they are human judges.

"die like men".
Were evil in their dealings with widows and orphans.

On the other hand, there is "no evidence in Ps. 82 that they were actual "gods".

That's your assertion but has yet to be proven. You don't care what the evidence shows. You said that you don't care to Heiser said. He's on your side. He's a noted scholar.

And YOU don't care what TALMAGE said.
He's on YOUR side.
He's a MORMON.
He's a noted scholar.
Yet you throw him under the bus.
But you expect us to blindly accept the mindless ramblings of any random heretic who just happens (according to you, not to Heiser) to agree with your false teachings?

You are not. And you don't care what he said. Obviously, you don't care about any evidence that disagrees with your opinion. So, here, we're just arguing opinions. But this much we do know. They are not demons and they are not idols. They must be some other kind of gods.

Not according to Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Ps. 86:10, Isa. 44:6,8, Isa.45:5,21,22, Isa. 46:9, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, etc. etc. etc.

The debate seems to be whether or not they are human gods or not.

"human gods"?
That's like "bird worms".
Or "Lion daffodils".
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Seeing the Biblical NT separates out God the Son from the "one God"--and appoints the "one God" as the God and Father of Jesus Christ--that isn't going to get the mileage you might hope for.

First--you might want to explain to us why God the Son is separated out from the "one God"--and claimed the "one God" was His God and Father:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)

17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Can you explain to me why you do not understand that God the Son, and God the Father separate PERSONS but not separate GODS? Since all three Persons in the Godhead are called "God" in the Bible, yet the Bible clearly and unequivocally says there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD? Ergo, the Triune Godhead? Which even your very own BoM attests to, including the Three Witnesses in the forepart of the BoM? "which are ONE GOD"?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Btw, since you LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE the ECF's so much, and you seem to need convincing that Jesus is God, I offer the following:


1Clem. 16:2 The scepter of the majesty of God, even our Lord Jesus Christ, came not in the pomp of arrogance or of pride, [...]

2Clem. 1:1 Brethren, we ought so to think of Jesus Christ, as of God, as of the Judge of quick and dead.

Eph. 1:0 Ignatius, also called Theophorus, sends heartiest good wishes for unalloyed joy in Jesus Christ to the Church at Ephesus in Asia; [...] predestined, before time was, to be—to her abiding and unchanging glory—forever united and chosen, through real suffering, by the will of the Father and Jesus Christ our God.

Eph. 17:2 Why do we not all become wise, having received knowledge of God, that is, Jesus Christ! Why do we perish in folly, failing to appreciate the gift which the Lord has sent us in truth!

Eph. 18:2 The fact is, our God Jesus Christ was conceived by Mary according to God’s dispensation of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit.

Tral. 7:1 So, then, beware of such! And you will do so if you are not puffed up and cling inseparably to God Jesus Christ, to the bishop, and to the precepts of the Apostles.

Rom. 1:0 Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the transcendent Majesty of the Most High Father and of Jesus Christ, His only Son; the church by the will of Him who willed all things that exist, beloved and illuminated through the faith and love of Jesus Christ our God; which also presides in the chief place of the Roman territory; a church worthy of God, [...] her do I therefore salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father. Heartiest good wishes for unimpaired joy in Jesus Christ our God, to those who are united in flesh and spirit by every commandment of His; who imperturbably enjoy the full measure of God’s grace and have every foreign stain filtered out of them.

Rom. 3:3 Nothing that is seen is good. Our God Jesus Christ certainly is the more clearly seen now that He is in the Father. Whenever Christianity is hated by the world, what counts is not power of persuasion, but greatness.

Smyr. 1:1 I extol Jesus Christ, the God who has granted you such wisdom. For I have observed that you are thoroughly trained in unshaken faith, being nailed, as it were, to the Cross of the Lord Jesus Christ both in body and in soul, [...]

Smyr. 10:1 [...] it was good of you to give them a warm reception as to servants of Christ God. For their part, they thank the Lord on your behalf, because you offered them losers.

Poly. 8:3 I say good-bye to you all forever in Jesus Christ our God, through whom I wish you to be united with God[...]

Phili. 12:2 [...] may He grant unto you a lot and portion among His saints, and to us with you, and to all that are under heaven, who shall believe on our Lord and God Jesus Christ and on His Father that raised him from the dead.
Remember what the Prophet wrote about this--why do Mormons cite the ECFs, most of whom lived AFTER the first century, to back up their ideas about men being able to evolve into gods--when the the LDS Church teaches that the church went into total apostasy AFTER the first century and the last apostolic witness to Jesus Christ had died? Doesn't that mean they are believing APOSTATES?

Can we say "inconsistency is the tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult"? Yes, we can....can we say "hypocrisy"? Yes, we can...
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Remember what the Prophet wrote about this--why do Mormons cite the ECFs, most of whom lived AFTER the first century, to back up their ideas about men being able to evolve into gods--when the the LDS Church teaches that the church went into total apostasy AFTER the first century and the last apostolic witness to Jesus Christ had died? Doesn't that mean they are believing APOSTATES?

Can we say "inconsistency is the tiny hobgoblin haunting every cult"? Yes, we can....can we say "hypocrisy"? Yes, we can...

Yep... The Roman Catholics, the JW's, the Mormons, ALL quote from the ECF's, counting on people to not be familiar with them. But they all quote them because they CAN'T support their false doctrines from the actual Bible, and they quote them (in ignorance) despite the fact that the ECF's CONTRADICT their false teachings.

The Mormons quote them, event though the ECF's taught (1) only one God exists, (2) "faith alone", and (3) sola Scriptura;

The Catholics quote them even though the ECF's taught (1) "faith alone", and (2) sola Scriptura;

The JW's quote them even though the ECF's taught (1) deity of Christ.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
snip for space.
Hey. Theo, Matt debated with a Mormon named Larry about the existence of other gods/Gods out there, and Larry fell back on Ps. 82, while ignoring the rest of the Biblical witness...and he also refused to answer Matt's simple answer about how God knows of NO OTHER GODS, so how could the "gods" in Ps. 82 be real, true Gods? It is a fun read:


In fact, this might make an interesting and entertaining OP, with quoting the whole thing, though it would need to be broken up into several posts. But do notice the same deflection, the same tap-dancing around, to get out of answering a simple question about Is. 44, in light of Ps. 82.

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:

‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

7 ‘Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.
8 ‘Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses.
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.’”

Matt's response is brilliant. I wish I had thought of it!
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yep... The Roman Catholics, the JW's, the Mormons, ALL quote from the ECF's, counting on people to not be familiar with them. But they all quote them because they CAN'T support their false doctrines from the actual Bible, and they quote them (in ignorance) despite the fact that the ECF's CONTRADICT their false teachings.

The Mormons quote them, event though the ECF's taught (1) only one God exists, (2) "faith alone", and (3) sola Scriptura;

The Catholics quote them even though the ECF's taught (1) "faith alone", and (2) sola Scriptura;

The JW's quote them even though the ECF's taught (1) deity of Christ.
This is most certainly true...I was on the JW and CATH boards for 4 years each, back in the 2000's. And what you say is true, though I did not see Catholics quote them that much. Mormons seem to quote them the most.
 
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