Keeping the commandments and LDS theology

Magdalena

Magdalena

Well-known member
Bonnie said:
That is true...I think one leader said anything less than exaltation is damnation....But doesn't Jesus live in the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms? Not sure about that. But if so, how coukd that be hell and/or damnation?
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No, they believe Christ can visit other kingdoms. Not live there. Their God the Father won’t even leave the highest degree of the celestial kingdom.
 
Magdalena

Magdalena

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
One of my favourite stories is when James White was evangelizing a Mormon (possibly an elder, I can't remember), and the discussion wasn't going well for the Mormon, so he got annoyed and upset and told Dr. White to "go to hell". White responded, "But you don't even believe in hell!"

And since Dr. White is a never-Mo, he wouldn't even end up in "outer darkness", so.... ;)
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Thats a good story.
 
Bonnie

Bonnie

Super Member
Theo1689 said:
Well, that makes sense.

Because Mormons don't believe in "damnation" in the sense of "condemnation".
The believe in being "dammed", as in "stopped", as in the "dam" of a river.
So anyone who didn't get to the highest kingdom was "stopped" or "dammed" at some point prior.
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So, it is dammed-nation, not damnation?
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
Bonnie said:
So, it is dammed-nation, not damnation?
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I found this on the eom.byu.edu website:


Author: Holzapfel, Richard Neitzel

"Damnation" is a term derived from the Latin damnum, meaning "injury" and "loss," and often connotes deprivation of what should have been possessed. Just as there are varying degrees and types of salvation, coupled with eternal progression in some areas (D&C 76:96-98;131:1-4), so are there varying degrees and types of damnation. In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped, blocked, or limited in one's progress. Individuals are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory. They are damned in the sense that they will not enjoy an eternal increase or the continuation of the family unit in eternity (D&C 132:4, 19). In this context, damnation does not necessarily refer to eternal suffering in hell with the devil, for loss of blessings is in itself a type of hell and damnation. LDS perspectives on this subject include biblical scriptures enriched and clarified by additional revelation; hence, damnation has a wider application than may seem apparent in modern usage (see Degrees of Glory; Exaltation; Heirs)."
 
Bonnie

Bonnie

Super Member
Theo1689 said:
I found this on the eom.byu.edu website:


Author: Holzapfel, Richard Neitzel

"Damnation" is a term derived from the Latin damnum, meaning "injury" and "loss," and often connotes deprivation of what should have been possessed. Just as there are varying degrees and types of salvation, coupled with eternal progression in some areas (D&C 76:96-98;131:1-4), so are there varying degrees and types of damnation. In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped, blocked, or limited in one's progress. Individuals are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory. They are damned in the sense that they will not enjoy an eternal increase or the continuation of the family unit in eternity (D&C 132:4, 19). In this context, damnation does not necessarily refer to eternal suffering in hell with the devil, for loss of blessings is in itself a type of hell and damnation. LDS perspectives on this subject include biblical scriptures enriched and clarified by additional revelation; hence, damnation has a wider application than may seem apparent in modern usage (see Degrees of Glory; Exaltation; Heirs)."
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They do not seem to know the difference between being "damned"--condemned to hell--and "dammed", meaning "blocked, stopped." They need a good dictionary!
 
CrowCross

CrowCross

Super Member
Aaron32 said:
It doesn’t matter. We are made for good works. (Ephesians 2:10)
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Oh, my, my, my...sometimes you guys crack me up. Beep, beep back the truck up 2 verses.....8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
 
Bonnie

Bonnie

Super Member
CrowCross said:
Oh, my, my, my...sometimes you guys crack me up. Beep, beep back the truck up 2 verses.....8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
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That is certainly true, but Aaron said that we are made for good works, which Eph. 2:10 certainly affirms. :)
 
Aaron32

Aaron32

Well-known member
CrowCross said:
Oh, my, my, my...sometimes you guys crack me up. Beep, beep back the truck up 2 verses.....8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
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And....what?
Have I made any statement to the contrary?
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
Aaron32 said:
And....what?
Have I made any statement to the contrary?
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I've been doing apologetics with Mormons for 30 years.
And one of their tactics is to try to make Mormonism sound very similar to Christianity, and avoid sharing beliefs which are contradictory to Christianity. For instance, I've heard multiple instances where the Christians knew about the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression, and they asked the Mormons about it, and the Mormons repeatedly denied it. And then eventually they came clean and admitted it, when it was clear that the Christians were familiar with Mormon teachings.

So here is the conundrum... Either Mormonism teaches the same thing as Christianity, and so it is unnecessary, or else it is different, and Mormons have to own up to the differences. So which is it?

There are many passages in the Bible which teach that salvation is "not by works" (Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

Why is it that Mormons are NEVER willing to address and exegete this passages?
And since you claim to believe that salvation is "not by works", are you willing to correct dberrie and other Mormons who teach the contrary?
 
Aaron32

Aaron32

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
I've been doing apologetics with Mormons for 30 years.
And one of their tactics is to try to make Mormonism sound very similar to Christianity, and avoid sharing beliefs which are contradictory to Christianity. For instance, I've heard multiple instances where the Christians knew about the Mormon doctrine of eternal progression, and they asked the Mormons about it, and the Mormons repeatedly denied it. And then eventually they came clean and admitted it, when it was clear that the Christians were familiar with Mormon teachings.

So here is the conundrum... Either Mormonism teaches the same thing as Christianity, and so it is unnecessary, or else it is different, and Mormons have to own up to the differences. So which is it?

There are many passages in the Bible which teach that salvation is "not by works" (Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

Why is it that Mormons are NEVER willing to address and exegete this passages?
And since you claim to believe that salvation is "not by works", are you willing to correct dberrie and other Mormons who teach the contrary?
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Salvation is not by works. We are saved by grace. Yet, we are judged by our works as evidence of our faith.

Im not a professional theologian, I don’t know if I would meet your criteria of satisfaction. If I attempted, would you provide constructive feedback and move the discussion forward, or just use it as an excuse to berate me? As I recall in previous attempts, my experience was the latter.
 
Theo1689

Theo1689

Well-known member
Aaron32 said:
Salvation is not by works. We are saved by grace. Yet, we are judged by our works as evidence of our faith.

Im not a professional theologian, I don’t know if I would meet your criteria of satisfaction. If I attempted, would you provide constructive feedback and move the discussion forward, or just use it as an excuse to berate me? As I recall in previous attempts, my experience was the latter.
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You mean to not treat you like you’re now treating me?

<sigh>
 
Aaron32

Aaron32

Well-known member
Theo1689 said:
Assuming negative and derogatory behaviour on my part. I guess Mormons don’t know Jesus’ teaching on charity.
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2 posts ago - you said this:

“There are many passages in the Bible which teach that salvation is "not by works" (Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

Why is it that Mormons are NEVER willing to address and exegete this passages?”

Your response above is why no one is addressing that argument - You never accept the response, or you play the victim, and derail the discussion to a petty argument. I’m willing to respond AGAIN, I just don’t want it ignored.

Charity can forgive, but not ignore, past experience.
 
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