Keeping the commandments and LDS theology

[CrowCross]

Then he would need to accept him, and show fruits of repentance.

hmmmmm, kinda makes me think.....your equation if there was one would be like


acceptance + demonstration of fruits = salvation.

Am I close?

 

[Theo1689]

2 posts ago - you said this:

“There are many passages in the Bible which teach that salvation is "not by works" (Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc.)

Why is it that Mormons are NEVER willing to address and exegete this passages?”

Yes, and what's your point?
I'm simply proclaiming truth.

I've cited those passages to Mormons in this forum literally HUNDREDS of times, and nobody is willing to address them.

edit per mod

Your response above is why no one is addressing that argument - You never accept the response,

What "response"?
Please link me to any "response" a Mormon has made to these passages.

or you play the victim,

I have NEVER "played the victim".
Why do you feel the need to constantly misrepresent me like this?
Jesus is all about TRUTH, edit

and derail the discussion to a petty argument. I’m willing to respond AGAIN, I just don’t want it ignored.

Charity can forgive, but not ignore, past experience.

edit

 

[Aaron32]

hmmmmm, kinda makes me think.....your equation if there was one would be like


acceptance + demonstration of fruits = salvation.

Am I close?

More like “Here’s the gate, enter in”

Salvation isn’t granted by merely fearing death, and giving lip service. We actually have to mean it. We need to be WILLING to change, and HUMBLE ourselves before a HOLY God. God knows our hearts.

Yet, that is NOT saying Salvation is because of our works. Salvation is because of God’s Grace that we must accept.

That is, unless the God of the OT is different than the God of the NT.

 

[Theo1689]

Yet, that is NOT saying Salvation is because of our works. Salvation is because of God’s Grace that we must accept.

So you're saying (once again) that grace is "necessary".
But the Bible also teaches that grace is SUFFICIENT.

That is, unless the God of the OT is different than the God of the NT.

Or unless Mormons misunderstand the God of the OT and NT.

The God of the OT taught that HE was the only god who exists.
But Mormons reject that.

The God of the NT taught that HE was the only god who exists.
But Mormons reject that.

 

[CrowCross]

More like “Here’s the gate, enter in”

Salvation isn’t granted by merely fearing death, and giving lip service. We actually have to mean it. We need to be WILLING to change, and HUMBLE ourselves before a HOLY God. God knows our hearts.

Yet, that is NOT saying Salvation is because of our works. Salvation is because of God’s Grace that we must accept.

That is, unless the God of the OT is different than the God of the NT.

Now you seem to be morphing what you said...

So, it now sounds like you're saying you have to accept Jesus....I would imagine accepting Jesus would include the desire to become more Christ like as that's part of the package...what you're accepting.

Now, if you tell me about Jesus...and I wanna be humble and change...and accept him...am I now saved? If I were to die at that very moment would I go to heaven and be with Jesus? Or, is there more?

 

[Aaron32]

edit per mod

What "response"?
Please link me to any "response" a Mormon has made to these passages.

I’d love to. Unfortunately the board’s been wiped. Again, I’d be happy to create another response, I’m just concerned it would never meet your standards, and thereby, dismissed.

I have NEVER "played the victim".
Why do you feel the need to constantly misrepresent me like this?
Jesus is all about TRUTH, edit

Anytime you complain about how you are treated, that you’ve been harmed or disrespected and that harm was intended to be so, you are “playing the victim”

You do not know my thoughts, feelings, or intents. I do not intend to offend you or upset you in any way. That is fact. I just want a discussion on the subject matter. If you are honestly offended, and believe that is the case, then please report it to the CARM board regulators, and they will take necessary action. Otherwise, my behavior, thoughts, perceived tactics, etc. is irrelevant to the discussion, and can only be seen as a way to avoid the subject matter.

Now, once again, I will exegete that scripture chain to the best of my ability IF you agree that you will directly respond the the content of them. You will not describe them, and tell me how they are insufficient. If they are insufficient, you provide CONSTRUCTIVE criticism by asking penetrating questions to the subject matter, and requesting specific details desires in relation to my beliefs or religion. You will not mention my behavior or tactics.

I don’t know what any serious debator would reject those terms, since I am describing honest debate. But I strive to give quality responses, and I’m not going to fulfill your requests, only to have them ignored or deflected.

Deal?

 

[Aaron32]

So you're saying (once again) that grace is "necessary".
But the Bible also teaches that grace is SUFFICIENT.



Or unless Mormons misunderstand the God of the OT and NT.

The God of the OT taught that HE was the only god who exists.
But Mormons reject that.

The God of the NT taught that HE was the only god who exists.
But Mormons reject that.

Hmmm...interesting. Please continue:
What is the difference between “necessary” and “sufficient”?

God killed everyone that wouldn’t look to the serpent on the cross. “Looking” would be an action that we would have to do on our part. I would call it “faith in action”. Yet, Christians on this board would tell me that I’m adding to Gods Grace. Please tell me where I’m misunderstanding.

 

[Theo1689]

FYI - This would be an example of a derogatory remark:

personal comment deleted

I’d love to. Unfortunately the board’s been wiped.

In case you haven't noticed, I've repeated the same arguments I've posted repeatedly. I don't whine and hide behind, "I'm not going to post it because I've already posted it and my feelings are going to be hurt if you don't accept it.".

Again, I’d be happy to create another response,

<sigh>
Instead of simply telling me what you're "going" to do, why not just respond to those passages?

I’m just concerned it would never meet your standards, and thereby, dismissed.

Oh, I see.... You're building up a list of reasons why you're not going to post, so at the end of the day you have an excuse for not addressing those passages, and you hope people will think it's a reason other than, "because he was unable to".

Who cares how I "respond", or what my "standards" are?
(And FYI, why can you speculate about me, but I can't speculate about you?
Double standards much?)

Don't you think other readers would be interested in any response you tried to give?
And don't you think it would look poorly on you in the eyes of those other readers if you're unable to respond to those passages?

Anytime you complain about how you are treated, that you’ve been harmed or disrespected and that harm was intended to be so, you are “playing the victim”

Not at all.
I don't need anyone's "support".
You simply don't want others to be shown how Mormons treat Christians.

You do not know my thoughts, feelings, or intents. I do not intend to offend you or upset you in any way. That is fact. I just want a discussion on the subject matter. If you are honestly offended, and believe that is the case, then please report it to the CARM board regulators,

Why?
I'm not a snowflake.
I don't need a "safe space".
I don't need to run away from passages like Mormons have to.

and they will take necessary action. Otherwise, my behavior, thoughts, perceived tactics, etc. is irrelevant to the discussion, and can only be seen as a way to avoid the subject matter.

Bickering

Now, once again, I will exegete that scripture chain to the best of my ability IF you agree that you will directly respond the the content of them.

<Chuckle>

More excuses to come up with for your final "decision" to refuse to answer the question. You don't need me to make any "deal" with you. All you need to do is address those passages.

Either address those passages.
Or don't, and show the world that Mormons CANNOT address them, because they contradict Mormonism.

You will not describe them, and tell me how they are insufficient. If they are insufficient, you provide CONSTRUCTIVE criticism by asking penetrating questions to the subject matter, and requesting specific details desires in relation to my beliefs or religion. You will not mention my behavior or tactics.

edit
I am free to respond, or not to respond.
If I choose to respond, I am free to choose what to to respond to, and how to respond.
You don't get to control me.

I don’t know what any serious debator would reject those terms, since I am describing honest debate.

I'm not here to "debate" you.
I'm here for DISCUSSION.
I'm here to show the world that Mormonism runs directly CONTRADICTORY to the Bible.

You can choose to try to defend Mormonism.
Or you can choose to run away from those passages.

I couldn't care less, one way or the other.

But I strive to give quality responses,

Somehow, all the evidence suggests that you DON'T "strive" for any such thing.
Otherwise you would have simply responded by now, instead of making this some kind of multi-national negotiation.

and I’m not going to fulfill your requests, only to have them ignored or deflected.

So you don't care about sharing your views with the other posters/readers here?
Sorry, you don't get to control how others behave.

Deal?

Respond to the passages, or run away from them and show everyone Mormonism can't address those passages.

I don't really care which you do.
It's a win for me either way.

 

[Theo1689]

Hmmm...interesting. Please continue:
What is the difference between “necessary” and “sufficient”?

www.dictionary.com

Or try this:

Google: "What is the difference between necessary and sufficient?"

Or,

"Siri, what is the difference between necessary and sufficient?"

God killed everyone that wouldn’t look to the serpent on the cross. “Looking” would be an action that we would have to do on our part. I would call it “faith in action”.

I agree that "looking" represents faith.
But where you fail to understand is that faith is not something we autonomously do, it is something God GIVES us (Phil 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, Eph. 2:8, etc.)

Yet, Christians on this board would tell me that I’m adding to Gods Grace.

Yes, you are.

 

[Aaron32]

previously deleted



In case you haven't noticed, I've repeated the same arguments I've posted repeatedly. I don't whine and hide behind, "I'm not going to post it because I've already posted it and my feelings are going to be hurt if you don't accept it.".



<sigh>
Instead of simply telling me what you're "going" to do, why not just respond to those passages?



Oh, I see.... You're building up a list of reasons why you're not going to post, so at the end of the day you have an excuse for not addressing those passages, and you hope people will think it's a reason other than, "because he was unable to".

Who cares how I "respond", or what my "standards" are?
(And FYI, why can you speculate about me, but I can't speculate about you?
Double standards much?)

Don't you think other readers would be interested in any response you tried to give?
And don't you think it would look poorly on you in the eyes of those other readers if you're unable to respond to those passages?


Not at all.
I don't need anyone's "support".
You simply don't want others to be shown how Mormons treat Christians.



Why?
I'm not a snowflake.
I don't need a "safe space".
I don't need to run away from passages like Mormons have to.



It is against CARM rules for you to tell me how to post, and tell me what I can and cannot write about. If you are offended by anything I post, you are free to contact the moderators and they will take necessary action. Until then, please stop trying to censor me. It doesn't look good on you.



<Chuckle>

More excuses to come up with for your final "decision" to refuse to answer the question. You don't need me to make any "deal" with you. All you need to do is address those passages.

Either address those passages.
Or don't, and show the world that Mormons CANNOT address them, because they contradict Mormonism.



You do not get to tell me how to post. That is against CARM rules.
I am free to respond, or not to respond.
If I choose to respond, I am free to choose what to to respond to, and how to respond.
You don't get to control me. But it's all about "control" to Mormons, isn't it?



I'm not here to "debate" you.
I'm here for DISCUSSION.
I'm here to show the world that Mormonism runs directly CONTRADICTORY to the Bible.

You can choose to try to defend Mormonism.
Or you can choose to run away from those passages.

I couldn't care less, one way or the other.



Somehow, all the evidence suggests that you DON'T "strive" for any such thing.
Otherwise you would have simply responded by now, instead of making this some kind of multi-national negotiation.



So you don't care about sharing your views with the other posters/readers here?
Sorry, you don't get to control how others behave.



Respond to the passages, or run away from them and show everyone Mormonism can't address those passages.

I don't really care which you do.
It's a win for me either way.

All I’ve requested is that I’ll exegete your scriptures if you follow honest debate tactics. Inasmuch as you wouldn’t be willing to do that, I’ll pass on your request, but you can’t say I didnt offer.

 

[Theo1689]

All I’ve requested is that I’ll exegete your scriptures if you follow honest debate tactics. Inasmuch as you wouldn’t be willing to do that, I’ll pass on your request, but you can’t say I didnt offer.

Thanks for proving my point.
We all knew that you were unable to address those passages.
You simply needed an excuse, to try to save face.

 

[Aaron32]

Now you seem to be morphing what you said...

So, it now sounds like you're saying you have to accept Jesus....I would imagine accepting Jesus would include the desire to become more Christ like as that's part of the package...what you're accepting.

Now, if you tell me about Jesus...and I wanna be humble and change...and accept him...am I now saved? If I were to die at that very moment would I go to heaven and be with Jesus? Or, is there more?

No, I can't see someone on their deathbed, having a desire to become like Christ, but rather being motivated to escape spiritual death / aka. receive justification - by yes, accepting Jesus - which is admitting your a sinner

So, to recap - bringing it all together, (since there's a lot of commentary)
I would tell him he needs to accept Jesus as His Savior, admitting that he is a sinner (confess) and having willingness to change (forsake).
His actual salvation would be contingent upon the desire of His heart, and God would be the judge.

Again, Salvation is because of God’s Grace that we must accept.

The witness of Jesus acceptance (baptism) would be done, which he would accept on other side of the veil.

 

[Aaron32]

Thanks for proving my point.
We all knew that you were unable to address those passages.
You simply needed an excuse, to try to save face.

On the contrary, it means I'm smart enough to not waste my time with someone that can't commit to stick to the subject matter. The offer still stands. I'll be waiting.

 

[CrowCross]

His actual salvation would be contingent upon the desire of His heart, and God would be the judge.

I was kinda curious.....do you have a chapter and verse to support that statement? It's OK if you don't.

 

[Aaron32]

I was kinda curious.....do you have a chapter and verse to support that statement? It's OK if you don't.

Im actually thinking BOM verses. Surprisingly, I couldnt find anything in the Bible, though conceptually it is there.

BOM verse:
2 Ne 25:29 “ And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.”

Bible verses:
Deut 6:5 “ And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.”

Abraham was justified because of his faith, (Gen 15:6) he proved his faith when he was willing to sacrifice Issac.

Basically, REAL faith that saves carries the willingness to act. A sincere heart carries real faith. Though on a deathbed you can’t do much, but faith could still be there.

I’m sure I could find better verses in time.

 

[organgrinder]

Aaron, this may have been what you were looking for:


if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
(Romans 10:9-13 NKJV)

 

[Aaron32]

Aaron, this may have been what you were looking for:


if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
(Romans 10:9-13 NKJV)

Boom! Nailed it!

 

[dberrie2020]

The God of the OT taught that HE was the only god who exists.
But Mormons reject that.

And this is the proof of that?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

 

[Theo1689]

And this is the proof of that?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Psa. 82:1 God takes His astand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers. (NASB)

The NET Bible states:

"The present translation assumes that the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים (ʾelohim, “gods”) here refers to the pagan gods who supposedly comprise El’s assembly according to Canaanite religion. Those who reject the polemical view of the psalm prefer to see the referent as human judges or rulers (‏אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to officials appointed by God, see Exod 21:6; 22:8-9; Ps 45:6) or as angelic beings (אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to angelic beings, see Gen 3:5; Ps 8:5)."


So this begs the question, does "Elohim" refer to true gods, or pagan gods, or angelic beings, or human judges.


And we have the following to inform our understanding:

Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else besides him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deut. 32:39   See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is  none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Ps. 86:10 For you are great and do amazing things.
You alone are God.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and  besides me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

 

[Bonnie]

Psa. 82:1 God takes His astand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers. (NASB)

The NET Bible states:

"The present translation assumes that the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים (ʾelohim, “gods”) here refers to the pagan gods who supposedly comprise El’s assembly according to Canaanite religion. Those who reject the polemical view of the psalm prefer to see the referent as human judges or rulers (‏אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to officials appointed by God, see Exod 21:6; 22:8-9; Ps 45:6) or as angelic beings (אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to angelic beings, see Gen 3:5; Ps 8:5)."


So this begs the question, does "Elohim" refer to true gods, or pagan gods, or angelic beings, or human judges.


And we have the following to inform our understanding:

Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else besides him.

Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deut. 32:39   See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:

2 Sam. 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

2 Sam. 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?

1 Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is  none else.

1 Chr. 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God besides thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Ps. 86:10 For you are great and do amazing things.
You alone are God.

Isa. 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and  besides me there is no God. 7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea,there is no God; I know not any.

Is. 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Is. 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

1Cor. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

Amazing, isn't it? Those in Mormonism must ONLY see what certain Bible verses seem to say, to the exclusion of all others that contradict what they are taught to believe. They must wear spiritual versions of these:



I put down these verses that are similar in tone and substance to the Ps. 82 ones, that clearly show who it is who is corrupt and judges unfairly and favors the wicked:

Isaiah 1:
Zion Corrupted, to Be Redeemed

21 How the faithful city has become a harlot,
She who was full of justice!
Righteousness once lodged in her,
But now murderers.
22 Your silver has become dross,
Your drink diluted with water.
23 Your rulers are rebels
And companions of thieves;
Everyone loves a bribe
And chases after rewards.
They do not [h]defend the orphan,
Nor does the widow’s plea come before them.
The language here is similar in tone to Ps. 82.

Here is more from Isaiah 3,

God Will Judge

13 The Lord arises to contend,
And stands to judge the people.
14 The Lord enters into judgment with the elders and princes of His people,
“It is you who have devoured the vineyard;
The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
15 “What do you mean by crushing My people
And grinding the face of the poor?”
Declares the Lord God of hosts.

Again, note the similarity to Ps. 82. Especially the bolded verses.

From Isaiah 5:

Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
And clever in their own sight!
22 Woe to those who are heroes in drinking wine
And valiant men in mixing strong drink,
23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe,
And take away the]rights of the ones who are in the right!​

and one more, from Isaiah 10:

Woe to those who enact evil statutes
And to those who constantly record [a]unjust decisions,
2 So as to deprive the needy of justice
And rob the poor of My people of their rights,
So that widows may be their spoil
And that they may plunder the [c]orphans.
3 Now what will you do in the day of punishment,
And in the devastation which will come from afar?​

​

Notice the similarity in content and tone, esp. in Is. 3. What do you think?