Keeping the commandments and LDS theology

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Psa. 82:1 God takes His astand in His own congregation;
He judges in the midst of the rulers. (NASB)

The NET Bible states:

"The present translation assumes that the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים (ʾelohim, “gods”) here refers to the pagan gods who supposedly comprise El’s assembly according to Canaanite religion. Those who reject the polemical view of the psalm prefer to see the referent as human judges or rulers (‏אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to officials appointed by God, see Exod 21:6; 22:8-9; Ps 45:6) or as angelic beings (אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to angelic beings, see Gen 3:5; Ps 8:5)."


So this begs the question, does "Elohim" refer to true gods, or pagan gods, or angelic beings, or human judges.
That would only identify who the gods are. That won't solve your problem.

The question I have--were they REAL gods? If they were indeed real gods--then your theology is violated.

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Theo--ancient Israel believed they were real gods--and that includes the Biblical writers.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Amazing, isn't it? Those in Mormonism must ONLY see what certain Bible verses seem to say, to the exclusion of all others that contradict what they are taught to believe.
Those "certain Bible verses" are Biblical verses also.

So--is this Biblical verse true? If so--then how do you collate those verses which contradict your theology--with the others you claim "contradict"?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
The LDS connect keeping the commandments with entering into life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Bump for the board--or is this just another "what Mormons are taught to believe"?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Those "certain Bible verses" are Biblical verses also.

So--is this Biblical verse true? If so--then how do you collate those verses which contradict your theology--with the others you claim "contradict"?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

No verses "contradict [our] theology".
Only your MISINTERPRETATION of those passages "contradict [our] theology".
But you don't seem to understand the difference, so further discussion is pointless.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
No verses "contradict [our] theology".

Then you wouldn't mind collating the verses in the OP--with the theology the critics pawn here?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Then you wouldn't mind collating the verses in the OP--with the theology the critics pawn here?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Actually, you're asking me to waste my time, and I'm not fine with that.
If you were actually interested, I might consider it, but I know you simply want to argue, and claim we're wrong.

If you TRULY want to know our understanding of those passages, there is a plethora of Reformed commentaries you are free to consult. But I'm guessing that you won't do that, since you can't argue with commentaries, and that's really what you want to do.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
dberrie2020 said:
Then you wouldn't mind collating the verses in the OP--with the theology the critics pawn here?

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Actually, you're asking me to waste my time, and I'm not fine with that.

I agree--any attempt to collate the Savior's testimony above--with the theology pawned here--is a waste of time.

It isn't for the LDS--it's exactly what they preach.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Those "certain Bible verses" are Biblical verses also.

So--is this Biblical verse true? If so--then how do you collate those verses which contradict your theology--with the others you claim "contradict"?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Why won't you address these bible verses, that are similar in language and show that human rulers are what Ps. 82 was referring to?

Here we go, from Isaiah 1, NASB:


Zion Corrupted, to Be Redeemed

21 How the faithful city has become a harlot,
She who was full of justice!
Righteousness once lodged in her,
But now murderers.
22 Your silver has become dross,
Your drink diluted with water.
23 Your rulers are rebels
And companions of thieves;
Everyone loves a bribe
And chases after rewards.
They do not [h]defend the orphan,
Nor does the widow’s plea come before them.


The language here is similar in tone to Ps. 82.

Here is more from Isaiah 3,

God Will Judge

13 The Lord arises to contend,
And stands to judge the people.
14 The Lord enters into judgment with the elders and princes of His people,

“It is you who have devoured the vineyard;
The plunder of the poor is in your houses.
15 “What do you mean by crushing My people
And grinding the face of the poor?”
Declares the Lord God of hosts.


Again, note the similarity to Ps. 82. Especially the bolded verses.

From Isaiah 5:

21Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes

And clever in their own sight!

22 Woe to those who are heroes in drinking wine

And valiant men in mixing strong drink,

23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe,

And take away the]rights of the ones who are in the right!​


and one more, from Isaiah 10:

1Woe to those who enact evil statutes

And to those who constantly record [a]unjust decisions,

2 So as to deprive the needy of justice

And rob the poor of My people of their rights,

So that widows may be their spoil

And that they may plunder the [c]orphans.


3 Now what will you do in the day of punishment,

And in the devastation which will come from afar?​


Why do you ignore these, esp. the Is. 3 and 10 verses that I bolded?

And why have you never answered my questions about Ps. 82 and the "gods" there:

1. IF these "gods" are true deity, then WHY do they not judge righteously? Why do they favor the wicked and defend the unjust? Wouldn't that make them sinners, like demons?

2. IF these "gods" are true deity, who are meant to judge the people, then how would people contact them, to ask them to render judgment in civil and religious judgments?

3. IF these "gods" are true deity, then how can they DIE like men? Does deity die? Jesus died, but He was incarnated as a man, so He could live and die like on of us. But how can true deity DIE?

4. Are these 'gods" in Ps. 82 exalted human beings who had worked their way to godhood in the CK? If so, why are they judging things on this earth when it is GOD who will judge the earth and "the earth IS the Lord's and everything in it"? And why are they favoring the wicked and defending the unjust? That would be a sin, right?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why won't you address these bible verses, that are similar in language and show that human rulers are what Ps. 82 was referring to?

Again--that only identifies who you believe those divine gods are. You have to make them go away.

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Why do you ignore these, esp. the Is. 3 and 10 verses that I bolded?


And why have you never answered my questions about Ps. 82 and the "gods" there:

1. IF these "gods" are true deity, then WHY do they not judge righteously? Why do they favor the wicked and defend the unjust? Wouldn't that make them sinners, like demons?

Rationalizing still leaves them as divine gods.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
3. IF these "gods" are true deity, then how can they DIE like men? Does deity die? Jesus died, but He was incarnated as a man, so He could live and die like on of us. But how can true deity DIE?

You state that God was incarnated so He could die like one of us--and then ask how can "true deity DIE"? IMO--that's denial in a sewed costume.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You state that God was incarnated so He could die like one of us--and then ask how can "true deity DIE"? IMO--that's denial in a sewed costume.
Why did you ignore the fact that it is THE SON of God--NOT the Father--Who became human? Where did I write that the Father became human?
Why did Jesus become a man, when He was incarnated in Mary's womb? Do you not know that one of the reasons Jesus became man was so He COULD die, after keeping the Law perfectly as a man? Being born of a woman, born under the Law? So He could redeem us from the curse of the Law?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Again--that only identifies who you believe those divine gods are. You have to make them go away.

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:



Rationalizing still leaves them as divine gods.
Why do you continually ignore what I posted from Isaiah? Why do you ignore the Bible verses that Theo has posted, that clearly say there is only one God--which put Ps. 82 into proper perspective? Why do you ONLY quote Ps. 82, when Theo and I have posted dozens of other Bible verses, that prove there is ONLY one God and that the "gods" in Ps. 82 are mortal rulers who judge unjustly and will "die like men"? And why have you not answered my questions about the "gods" in Ps. 82?

Why do you keep demonstrating Mormon debate tactics nos. 4 and 5?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why did Jesus become a man, when He was incarnated in Mary's womb? Do you not know that one of the reasons Jesus became man was so He COULD die, after keeping the Law perfectly as a man? Being born of a woman, born under the Law? So He could redeem us from the curse of the Law?
The LDS don't have any problem with that--and I don't understand how you are relating that to the OP--or to my retort to your post, IE--

Bonnie said:
3. IF these "gods" are true deity, then how can they DIE like men? Does deity die? Jesus died, but He was incarnated as a man, so He could live and die like on of us. But how can true deity DIE?

That's your retort I replied to--and it does not come together very well, IMO.

Again--You state that God was incarnated so He could die like one of us--and then ask "how can true deity DIE"? IMO--that's denial in a sewed costume.

Well--"true Deity" can die just as the Biblical record bears testimony God died. And if God the Son can die--then why are you questioning whether the gods of Psalm82 can die?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do you continually ignore what I posted from Isaiah? Why do you ignore the Bible verses that Theo has posted, that clearly say there is only one God--which put Ps. 82 into proper perspective? Why do you ONLY quote Ps. 82, when Theo and I have posted dozens of other Bible verses, that prove there is ONLY one God .....

Ang just how are you using those points to prove the gods of Psalm 82 aren't real gods?

And further--the NT "one God" excluded God the Son from it's parameters--and testified the "one God" was God the Son's God and Father:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)


17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So--seeing that testimony, which separates out God the Son from the specific "one God" designation--how are you using that to legitimize your argument the "one God" designation cancels out all reality of other gods--when the Biblical NT witness states otherwise?

Bonnie--ancient Israel believed in the reality of other heavenly gods--and that included the Biblical writers:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Not to mention the fact most all of the Early Church Fathers testified men may become gods.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
The LDS don't have any problem with that--and I don't understand how you are relating that to the OP--or to my retort to your post, IE--



That's your retort I replied to--and it does not come together very well, IMO.

Again--You state that God was incarnated so He could die like one of us--and then ask "how can true deity DIE"? IMO--that's denial in a sewed costume.

Well--"true Deity" can die just as the Biblical record bears testimony God died. And if God the Son can die--then why are you questioning whether the gods of Psalm82 can die?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Why do you keep dodging my questions? Why do you ONLY use Ps. 82 to defend your polytheism, while ignoring all of the verses Theo put down here that clearly show there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD? Why do you ignore all of the Isaiah verses I quoted, that are similar in tone and content to Ps. 82, that has God judging human RULERS, who favor the wicked, accept bribes, make unjust judgements, and do not defend the fatherless and widows?

And why won't you answer my simple questions about the "gods" in Ps. 82? Are they that difficult? Why do you insist on being an example of Mormon debate tactics nos. 1-5 in my signature?

And why do you ignore the fact that God the Father--who IS spirit--never died, but the Incarnated Son of God, DID die, because He was fully human when He walked this earth? And humans can die?
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Ang just how are you using those points to prove the gods of Psalm 82 aren't real gods?

And further--the NT "one God" excluded God the Son from it's parameters--and testified the "one God" was God the Son's God and Father:

1 Corinthians 8:6---King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Timothy 2:5--King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Ephesians 4:4-6--King James Version (KJV)

4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

John 17:3---King James Version (KJV)
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matthew 22:44 ---King James Version (KJV)
44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

1 Peter 1:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Ephesians 1:17---King James Version (KJV)


17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Hebrews 1:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So--seeing that testimony, which separates out God the Son from the specific "one God" designation--how are you using that to legitimize your argument the "one God" designation cancels out all reality of other gods--when the Biblical NT witness states otherwise?

Bonnie--ancient Israel believed in the reality of other heavenly gods--and that included the Biblical writers:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Not to mention the fact most all of the Early Church Fathers testified men may become gods.
Why do you ignore John 1:1, John 8:58, John 20:28, Col. 2:9, Rev. 1:17, and 2:1, and 22:12-13? Why do you then ignore all the Bible verses that clearly state there is ONLY ONE GOD, and God is ONE--yet the Bible clearly calls ALL three Persons in the Godhead GOD--which demonstrates the Triune Godhead?

And why do you ignore the fact that the BoM is CLEARLY momotheistic and Trinitarian?

WHY do you continually demonstrate Mormon debate tactics no. 5 in my signature?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Why do you ignore John 1:1, John 8:58, John 20:28, Col. 2:9, Rev. 1:17, and 2:1, and 22:12-13? Why do you then ignore all the Bible verses that clearly state there is ONLY ONE GOD, and God is ONE--yet the Bible clearly calls ALL three Persons in the Godhead GOD--which demonstrates the Triune Godhead?

And why do you ignore the fact that the BoM is CLEARLY momotheistic and Trinitarian?

WHY do you continually demonstrate Mormon debate tactics no. 5 in my signature?

To all readers....

Has everyone observed that whenever we try to get Mormons to address all the "only one true God" passages, and all the "Jesus is God" passages (which we've been doing for YEARS), Mormons simply IGNORE them, and derail discussion by pointing to other passages (such as Ps. 82) that we've responded to HUNDREDS of times?

We've responded to their "proof-texts" HUNDREDS of times.
But they haven't responded to our passages even ONCE.

Mormons are the ones running away from the Bible.

They seem to think, "We have one verse that says, "X", so if you have other verses you claim to teach "Not-X", you must be interpreting them wrong."

Of course, that "logic" works just as easily the other way, since we have so many passages which teach that "only one god exists", then any passage you think teaches the opposite MUST be wrong. So that's not a valid argument, and the only valid thing to do would be for the Mormons to actually ADDRESS those passages. Which they never do.


Of course, since they're Mormons, they could be inferring that "your verses were not translated correctly, and so are unreliable. Of course, that's fallacious as well, since why don't you consider that it is YOUR "proof-texts" which were inaccurate, and that ours are authentic.

It's cherry-picking, plain and simple.
And derailment.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
To all readers....

Has everyone observed that whenever we try to get Mormons to address all the "only one true God" passages, and all the "Jesus is God" passages (which we've been doing for YEARS), Mormons simply IGNORE them, and derail discussion by pointing to other passages (such as Ps. 82) that we've responded to HUNDREDS of times?

We've responded to their "proof-texts" HUNDREDS of times.
But they haven't responded to our passages even ONCE.

Mormons are the ones running away from the Bible.

They seem to think, "We have one verse that says, "X", so if you have other verses you claim to teach "Not-X", you must be interpreting them wrong."

Of course, that "logic" works just as easily the other way, since we have so many passages which teach that "only one god exists", then any passage you think teaches the opposite MUST be wrong. So that's not a valid argument, and the only valid thing to do would be for the Mormons to actually ADDRESS those passages. Which they never do.


Of course, since they're Mormons, they could be inferring that "your verses were not translated correctly, and so are unreliable. Of course, that's fallacious as well, since why don't you consider that it is YOUR "proof-texts" which were inaccurate, and that ours are authentic.

It's cherry-picking, plain and simple.
And derailment.

Btw, what this proves is that Mormons simply don't know the Bible.

All they have are their "proof-texts".
They have a "script", as in "here are the verses we use to prove <X>, <Y>, and <Z>."

But if you take them off script, they're lost. They don't know what to do.
If you give them other passages (like "one true God"), they have no clue how to respond.
They can't even respond by explaining the "context" of their OWN proof-texts!

They'll quote Ps. 82:6, but can't address how any of the other verses relate to it (and it's not a long psalm!).

They'll quote 1 Cor. 8:5, "gods many and lords many", but they can't deal with the CONTEXT of those gods being "idols", or the fact Paul explicitly teaches in v.4, "There is NO God but ONE."


They just hide behind their "script", their "proof-texts".
 
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