Keeping the commandments and LDS theology

Bonnie

Super Member
Btw, what this proves is that Mormons simply don't know the Bible.

All they have are their "proof-texts".
They have a "script", as in "here are the verses we use to prove <X>, <Y>, and <Z>."

But if you take them off script, they're lost. They don't know what to do.
If you give them other passages (like "one true God"), they have no clue how to respond.
They can't even respond by explaining the "context" of their OWN proof-texts!

They'll quote Ps. 82:6, but can't address how any of the other verses relate to it (and it's not a long psalm!).

They'll quote 1 Cor. 8:5, "gods many and lords many", but they can't deal with the CONTEXT of those gods being "idols", or the fact Paul explicitly teaches in v.4, "There is NO God but ONE."


They just hide behind their "script", their "proof-texts".
Thanks Theo. Your observation fits perfectly what Markk wrote, in that thread where I quoted him. He basically said Mormon proof texts are mostly scripted talking points--that if we ask questions and make points not covered by their talking points, they are lost. And so they must resort to repeating themselves, pretend our points and questions do not exist, and, when all else fails, fall back on their "testimony"--that the church is true, and JS is a prophet, etc. They are just so...predictable.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I'm so glad that Christ has kept all the commandments for His People. They therefore have kept them in and through the Lord Jesus Christ 😅
Well, of course. This is the ONLY way any of us can EVER keep all God's commandments perfectly, 24/7. His perfect keeping of them is credited to us by grace through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord. Those in works righteous groups do not understand this, nor do they trust in Jesus to save them completrly. They trust more in their OWN works, than in what Jesus did for us, on the cross.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
To all readers....

Has everyone observed that whenever we try to get Mormons to address all the "only one true God" passages, and all the "Jesus is God" passages (which we've been doing for YEARS), Mormons simply IGNORE them, and derail discussion by pointing to other passages (such as Ps. 82) that we've responded to HUNDREDS of times?

We've responded to their "proof-texts" HUNDREDS of times.
But they haven't responded to our passages even ONCE.

Mormons are the ones running away from the Bible.

They seem to think, "We have one verse that says, "X", so if you have other verses you claim to teach "Not-X", you must be interpreting them wrong."

Of course, that "logic" works just as easily the other way, since we have so many passages which teach that "only one god exists", then any passage you think teaches the opposite MUST be wrong. So that's not a valid argument, and the only valid thing to do would be for the Mormons to actually ADDRESS those passages. Which they never do.


Of course, since they're Mormons, they could be inferring that "your verses were not translated correctly, and so are unreliable. Of course, that's fallacious as well, since why don't you consider that it is YOUR "proof-texts" which were inaccurate, and that ours are authentic.

It's cherry-picking, plain and simple.
And derailment.
What you write here is very true. And what I have observed in over 8 years on this board.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
False accusations. You need not make false accusations for it's morally evil. I believe in limited atonement, Christ died only for His Sheep, and all people are not of His Sheep. You need to read more carefully and don't make rash false accusations.
Can we limit (no pun intended) our discussion to Mormonism please?
 

Mod10

Moderator
Staff member
You making things difficult which are simple.
Brightfame, are you a Mormon or not? If not, then you have no business on here debating a non-Mormon. It is against the rules for non-Mormons to debate each other on here. If you are not a Mormon, then please take this discussion to another board, such as the Apologetics board. This board is only for discussing the LDS church and its faith and history. Thank you.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Brightfame, are you a Mormon or not? If not, then you have no business on here debating a non-Mormon. It is against the rules for non-Mormons to debate each other on here. If you are not a Mormon, then please take this discussion to another board, such as the Apologetics board. This board is only for discussing the LDS church and its faith and history. Thank you.
Understood!
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Amazing, isn't it? Those in Mormonism must ONLY see what certain Bible verses seem to say, to the exclusion of all others that contradict what they are taught to believe.
What verses are you claiming contradicts the testimony of the Biblical writers here?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 

Bonnie

Super Member
What verses are you claiming contradicts the testimony of the Biblical writers here?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Why do you ignore what I have already posted about this passage on here? And refuse to answer my questions about it?


Post nos. 69, 72, 73, 76....

Why do you ignore my posts that prove that the "gods" here means corrupt rulers and judges? Why do you ignore all of the Isaiah verses I posted? An WHY do you continually ignore all of the verses we have posted that proclaim, throughout the Bible ,that THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD? Which put the "gods" in Ps. 82 into proper perspective?

When are you going to finally address the questions I asked in the post in the link and answer my points, instead of always running away and demonstrating Mormon tactics nos. 3-5 in my signature?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do you ignore my posts that prove that the "gods" here means corrupt rulers and judges?

I addressed those concerns--and I will do it again:

1) Claiming the gods are humans still leaves other real gods.

2) Not all scholars believe the gods are humans:

https://journal.interpreterfoundati...l-in-the-hebrew-bible-and-the-book-of-mormon/

"Some have gone to great lengths to argue that these “gods” in Psalm 82 are mortals,perhaps judges or magistrates, but this argument fails for many reasons. Besides the insurmountable linguistic and exegetical absurdities in such a reading, when the imagery of Psalm 82 is compared with other Psalms, such as Psalm 29:1 (“Ascribe to the Lord, O heavenly beings [אלים בני; bĕnê ’ēlîm; literally “sons of gods”], ascribe to the Lord glory and [Page 167]strength.”) and Psalm 89:5–8 (see below), it becomes clear these gods cannot be humans but must be divine beings.

In turning to Psalm 89, we see a striking depiction of the divine assembly of Yahweh.

Let the heavens [שמים; šāmaîm] praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones [קהל קדשים; qĕhal qĕdôshîm]. For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings [אלים בני; bĕnê ’ēlîm] is like the Lord, a God feared in the council of the holy ones [סוד-קדשים; sôd qĕdôshîm], great and awesome above all that are around him? (Psalm 89:5–7)"

Why do you ignore all of the Isaiah verses I posted?
I don't--I just don't understand how you believe those verses somehow covers up or cancels out the numerous verses depicting other real gods, or the Early Church Father's testimony that men may become gods. Or the NT witness--which separates out God the Son from the "one God".

How are you claiming your posted verses deals with that reality?

The LDS believe it just as it is written, IE--for us--there is but one God we worship. That in no way means the other gods testified to in the Biblical text aren't real gods.

Care to address that concern?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
What verses are you claiming contradicts the testimony of the Biblical writers here?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

<sigh>

You've asked this question 20 million times, and every time we answer, you simply ignore our answer, and ask the question again.

Well, if you won't accept an answer from Christians (which begs the question of why you are wasting our time asking us in the first place), perhaps you will accept the answer of one of your own, James Talmage:

"In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.' To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.' Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1). Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute. The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds" (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501).

Talmage actually understood both the original meaning of the Psalm, as well as Jesus' use of it in rebuking the Jews. The fact that his interpretation doesn't self-servingly support Mormon doctrine demonstrates that he is sincerely exegeting the text, rather than simply trying to defend pre-existing doctrines.

I think a member of the Quorum of the Twelve understands Scripture better than you do, if you don't mind me saying so.

I think it is ironic when Mormons have to run away from the teachings of their own leaders, and go phishing to "scholars" like Michael Heiser. Aren't Mormon leaders accurate anymore?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I addressed those concerns--and I will do it again:

1) Claiming the gods are humans still leaves other real gods.

You don't seem to understand what a "metaphor" is.
We're NOT claiming "the gods are humans".
We are claiming (and James Talmage agrees) that the judges are HUMAN, and are merely "called" gods.

So the judges AREN'T "gods".
They are simply "called" gods.

If you say, "my words are chains of lead", that doesn't mean you have actual lead chains coming out of your mouth.

2) Not all scholars believe the gods are humans:

Again, nobody is saying that "gods are humans".
You are ASSUMING that those in Psalm 82 are actual gods.
They are not.

And your "scholars" game is simply shopping for "scholars" who agree with what you WANT the passage to say.

If you think truth comes from "scholars", why does your church have "prophets"?


I don't--I just don't understand how you believe those verses somehow covers up or cancels out the numerous verses depicting other real gods, or the Early Church Father's testimony that men may become gods. Or the NT witness--which separates out God the Son from the "one God".

Because of Deut. 4:35,39.
Because of Deut. 32:39.
Because of 1 Kings 8:60.
Because of Ps. 86:10.
Because of Isa. 44:6,8.
Because of Isa. 45:5,21,22.
Because of Isa. 46:9.
Because of Mark 12:32.
Because of 1 Cor. 8:4.

Because Mormons rip Ps. 82 and 1 Cor. 8:5 OUT OF CONTEXT.
Because the ECF's ALSO taught the IMPOSSIBILITY of more than one god existing.
Because Mormons rip the ECF's out of context.
Because making a distinction between the Father and the Son does NOT mean "two gods".



How are you claiming your posted verses deals with that reality?

The LDS believe it just as it is written, IE--for us--there is but one God we worship. That in no way means the other gods testified to in the Biblical text aren't real gods.

Care to address that concern?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You don't seem to understand what a "metaphor" is.
We're NOT claiming "the gods are humans".
We are claiming (and James Talmage agrees) that the judges are HUMAN, and are merely "called" gods.

So the judges AREN'T "gods".
They are simply "called" gods.

If you say, "my words are chains of lead", that doesn't mean you have actual lead chains coming out of your mouth.



Again, nobody is saying that "gods are humans".
You are ASSUMING that those in Psalm 82 are actual gods.
They are not.

And your "scholars" game is simply shopping for "scholars" who agree with what you WANT the passage to say.

If you think truth comes from "scholars", why does your church have "prophets"?




Because of Deut. 4:35,39.
Because of Deut. 32:39.
Because of 1 Kings 8:60.
Because of Ps. 86:10.
Because of Isa. 44:6,8.
Because of Isa. 45:5,21,22.
Because of Isa. 46:9.
Because of Mark 12:32.
Because of 1 Cor. 8:4.

Because Mormons rip Ps. 82 and 1 Cor. 8:5 OUT OF CONTEXT.
Because the ECF's ALSO taught the IMPOSSIBILITY of more than one god existing.
Because Mormons rip the ECF's out of context.
Because making a distinction between the Father and the Son does NOT mean "two gods".
What it boils down to, is that Mormons are henotheists. Which is still heresy, since the Bible clearly states there is only one true God. God Himself said NO God came before Him and none will be formed AFTER Him. So, the others in the Bible called "gods" are "so-called gods" and "no gods BY NATURE." Depending upon context, they are angels, or judges judging in God's name, or--most often--idols, which are "nothing in the world." But of course, as you and I well know, "context" is anathema to those lost in Mormonism and its heretical doctrines.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I addressed those concerns--and I will do it again:

1) Claiming the gods are humans still leaves other real gods.

2) Not all scholars believe the gods are humans:

https://journal.interpreterfoundati...l-in-the-hebrew-bible-and-the-book-of-mormon/

"Some have gone to great lengths to argue that these “gods” in Psalm 82 are mortals,perhaps judges or magistrates, but this argument fails for many reasons. Besides the insurmountable linguistic and exegetical absurdities in such a reading, when the imagery of Psalm 82 is compared with other Psalms, such as Psalm 29:1 (“Ascribe to the Lord, O heavenly beings [אלים בני; bĕnê ’ēlîm; literally “sons of gods”], ascribe to the Lord glory and [Page 167]strength.”) and Psalm 89:5–8 (see below), it becomes clear these gods cannot be humans but must be divine beings.

In turning to Psalm 89, we see a striking depiction of the divine assembly of Yahweh.

Let the heavens [שמים; šāmaîm] praise your wonders, O Lord, your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones [קהל קדשים; qĕhal qĕdôshîm]. For who in the skies can be compared to the Lord? Who among the heavenly beings [אלים בני; bĕnê ’ēlîm] is like the Lord, a God feared in the council of the holy ones [סוד-קדשים; sôd qĕdôshîm], great and awesome above all that are around him? (Psalm 89:5–7)"


I don't--I just don't understand how you believe those verses somehow covers up or cancels out the numerous verses depicting other real gods, or the Early Church Father's testimony that men may become gods. Or the NT witness--which separates out God the Son from the "one God".

How are you claiming your posted verses deals with that reality?

The LDS believe it just as it is written, IE--for us--there is but one God we worship. That in no way means the other gods testified to in the Biblical text aren't real gods.

Care to address that concern?
Who said those verses "cover up" or "cancel" Ps. 82? Did I ever say they did that? Why cannot you see that the verses I posted from Isaiah--and the "only one God" verses Theo has posted ad infinitum--EXPLAIN and put Ps. 82 into PROPER PERSPECTIVE? Do you NOT know the difference between "cancel out"/"cover up" and "explain"?

Cancel:


Cover up:


explain: "

VERB
  1. make (an idea, situation, or problem) clear to someone by describing it in more detail or revealing relevant facts or ideas.
    "they explained that their lives centered on the religious rituals" ·

    synonyms:
    describe · give an explanation of · make clear/plain/intelligible · spell out · put into words · express in words: elucidate, expound, explicate, delinate, clarify, unfold
    ---------------------------------
    Now, can you not see the difference in the three terms? Do you not understand that what I did with the Isaiah verses and what Theo has done with all of his "only one God" verses are to CLARIFY what Ps. 82 is really talking about? HOW is that "covering up" or "cancelling" Ps. 82, based upon the definition of those words? When all we have been doing is EXPLAINING IT AND CLARIFYING IT, by quoting MORE Bible verses

  2. Do you remember what Satan tried to do when he tempted Jesus in the Wilderness?
Matt. 4, NASB:
5 Then the devil *took Him into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and *said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written,

‘He will command His angels concerning You’;
and

‘On their hands they will bear You up,
So that You will not strike Your foot against a stone.’”
7 Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

Do you see how Satan accurately quoted scripture, while trying to get Jesus to sin? But what did JESUS do, to counteract him? Care to tell us, dberrie?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
You don't seem to understand what a "metaphor" is.
We're NOT claiming "the gods are humans".
We are claiming (and James Talmage agrees) that the judges are HUMAN, and are merely "called" gods.

So the judges AREN'T "gods".
They are simply "called" gods.

If you say, "my words are chains of lead", that doesn't mean you have actual lead chains coming out of your mouth.

Again, nobody is saying that "gods are humans".
You are ASSUMING that those in Psalm 82 are actual gods.
They are not.

Hmmm. God taking His place in the Divine Council of the gods--who really aren't gods? Interesting.

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Hmmm. God taking His place in the Divine Council of the gods--who really aren't gods? Interesting.

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
Do you not know what imagery is? Do you not know what a "figure of speech" is?

Why do you keep forgetting all of the Bible verses where God plainly says that He alone is God, that no other exists, and that none came before Him and none will come after Him? And that Ps. 82 must be judged in accordance with what God says in the rest of the Bible? OR--was God lying?

Philippians 3:18-19​

King James Version​

18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Hmmmm, a God who really isn't a God...isn't that interesting....?
 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Who said those verses "cover up" or "cancel" Ps. 82? Did I ever say they did that? Why cannot you see that the verses I posted from Isaiah--and the "only one God" verses Theo has posted ad infinitum--EXPLAIN and put Ps. 82 into PROPER PERSPECTIVE?

And what "perspective" are you claiming between the "one God"--and the gods of Psalm 82?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

What perspective are you claiming between the Early Church Fathers claims of men becoming gods?

The Word was made man in order that we might be made divine [also translated, “that we might become God.” Or, “he was humanized that we might be deified.”]. He displayed himself through a body, that we might receive knowledge of the invisible Father. He endured insult at the hands of men, that we might inherit immortality. (Athanasius, On the Incarnation, 54)

You do realize Athanasius believed in the "one God" also?

How do you collate those anomalies to your theology? By claiming they can't possibly be gods--because of the testimony there is only the "one God"? That's denial--it's not an explanation as to how you collate the two existing, real points.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do you not know what imagery is? Do you not know what a "figure of speech" is?

I know God didn't take His place among an imaginary Divine Council of the gods:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

And I know the Early Church Fathers didn't believe men becoming gods was a "figure of speech".

“Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is.”—Against Heresies, Book 5, preface


Why do you keep forgetting all of the Bible verses where God plainly says that He alone is God, that no other exists, and that none came before Him and none will come after Him? Was God lying?

Are you referring to this?

John 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

So--how do you explain that? There are either no other gods--or there is. Claiming they were humans, or just kidding--won't solve your dilemma created by those testimonies.

https://journal.interpreterfoundati...l-in-the-hebrew-bible-and-the-book-of-mormon/

. Deuteronomy 32, sometimes called the Song of Moses, contains a poem Moses is said to have recited to “the whole assembly of Israel” (Deuteronomy 31:30) just before his death. The kjv, following the Masoretic version of the text, renders one crucial part of the poem as follows:

Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will shew thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee. When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD’S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. (vv. 7–9, emphasis added)

[Page 168]As it reads in the kjv, Moses sings here that God established national boundaries based on the number of the children of Israel (בני ישראל; bĕnê yiśĕrā’ēl) and retained the Israelites (“Jacob”) for himself. More recent translations of this passage, however, contained a significant variant reading.

Remember the days of old, consider the years long past; ask your father, and he will inform you; your elders, and they will tell you. When the Most High apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods; the LORD’S own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share. (NRSV vv. 7–9, emphasis added)

Here the nations are not divided according to the number of the children of Israel but rather according to the number of the gods. Whence this new reading? The ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible known today as the Septuagint recorded that God divided the nations “according to the number of the angels of God” (κατὰ ἀριθμὸν ἀγγέλων θεοῦ; kata arithmon angelōn theou). This was long assumed to be an error, and so the Masoretic Text was preferred by the translators of the kjv. With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the mid-twentieth century, however, scholars revisited this matter. Among the recovered fragments was a text (4QDeutj) giving a much earlier reading of v. 8 that significantly diverged from the Masoretic Text. Rather than dividing the nations according to the number of the children of Israel, God, in this textual witness, is said to have divided the nations according to the number of “the sons of God” (בני אלוהים; bĕnê ’ēlōhîm).Carmel McCarthy, writing in the authoritative Biblia Hebraica Quinta, could see no other reason for this variant than it arose through “deliberate emendation” by scribes with “theological motives.”

But the scribal alterations did not end with v. 8. At the conclusion of the song, Moses exults, “Rejoice, O ye nations [גוים; gōyîm], with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and [Page 169]to his people” (kjv v. 43). Again, consulting modern translations reveals a significant difference. “Praise, O heavens, his people, worship him, all you gods! For he will avenge the blood of his children, and take vengeance on his adversaries; he will repay those who hate him, and cleanse the land for his people” (NRSV v. 43, emphasis added). The reading provided by the NRSV (among other modern translations), draws from the textual witness of 4QDeutq. As preserved in this fragment, Moses adjures the members of the divine council, identified as “gods” (אלהים; ’ēlōhîm), to worship Yahweh. A poetic parallelism conceptually linking the “heavens” (שמים; šāmaîm) and the “gods” (אלהים; ’ēlōhîm) is also evident in the Qumran version, but lost in the Masoretic reworking, which changed “heavens” to “nations” and omitted reference to the gods worshipping Yahweh altogether. The reading in 4QDeutq aligns closely with the Septuagint, which represents Moses as commanding: “Rejoice, O heavens, with him [i.e. God], and bow down before him, all you sons of God” (εὐφράνθητε, οὐρανοί, ἅμα αὐτῷ, καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες υἱοὶ θεοῦ; euphanthēte ouranoi hama autō euphanthēte ouranoi hama autō kai proskynēsatōsan autō pantes uioi theou).51

The transmission of Deuteronomy 32 indicates that the divine council is (or was) so overtly present in the text that scribes wishing to downplay the apparent polytheism undertook alterations that would make it theologically suitable for emerging orthodox trends toward a “purer” monotheism. Bernard Levinson sees in this passage “mythological imagery of God presiding over the divine council” that “almost certainly” challenged the monotheism of the copyists handling the text, which in turn “triggered the attempts to purge the text of polytheistic elements.”Paul Sanders summarizes the current scholarly consensus on this matter nicely: “Both in v. 8b and 43a the fragments from Qumran contain references to gods beside YHWH whereas such references are not found in the [Masoretic Text] and the Samaritan Pentateuch. In the latter versions the absence of these references would seem to be due to deliberate elimination.”
 

Bonnie

Super Member
snip for space
Why do you keep ignoring all the other verses I have quoted from Isaiah, where God is judging rulers? Don't you know that they are called "gods" in Ps. 82 because God appointed them and they rule in His place, among His people?

And don't you know that throughout its long history, Israel/Judah went whoring after other gods, worshiping them, instead of YHWH, and sometimes mixing in the worship of both? But does whoring after other gods prove those gods exist? Don't you remember, that the OT says that the "gods of the nations are IDOLS?" Do idols really exist, except in people's minds?

Do you not know that the NRSV is the only English translation that I am aware of, that has "gods" in vs. 8?


Deuteronomy 32 New American Standard Bible (NASB)​

The Song of Moses​

32 “Listen, you heavens, and I will speak;
And let the earth hear the words of my mouth!
2 May my teaching drip as the rain,
My speech trickle as the dew,
As droplets on the fresh grass,
And as the showers on the vegetation.
3 For I proclaim the name of the Lord;
Ascribe greatness to our God!
4 The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are [a]just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and just is He.
5 [b]They have acted corruptly against Him,
They are not His children, because of their defect;
But are a perverse and crooked generation.
6 Is this what you do to the Lord,
You foolish and unwise people?
Is He not your Father who has purchased you?
He has made you and established you.
7 Remember the days of old,
Consider the years of all generations.
Ask your father and he will inform you,
Your elders, and they will tell you.
8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
When He separated the sons of [c]mankind,
He set the boundaries of the peoples
According to the number of the [d]sons of Israel.
9 For the Lord’s portion is His people;
Jacob is the allotment of His inheritance.

Can you see the footnote c that is linked? Whom is this entire song about? Isn't it about God's covenant people, the Israelites? Also, do you not know what Paul wrote to the Athenians, in Acts 17? Which echo this song?

24 The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us...

Do you see the bolded part? Isn't that very similar to what is in Deut. 32, vs. 7-9?

Would you like to see what another scholar says about this Deut. 32:8 verse?

As verse nine should make clear, this verse is speaking about the Israelites (not angels or "gods") -- Israel is "His people", "His portion". And after all it is human kind that is divided up -- which has nothing to do with angels (or gods). The LXX is wrong (not an uncommon thing), and the Qumran scroll is also wrong (not an uncommon thing -- they represent an inferior text type as opposed to the MT tradition). This alternative may reflect a back-translation from the LXX, but since the Essenes were into the sort of incipient Gnosticism that the Mormons also embrace, it is no wonder that they preferred this incorrect reading. Context makes it clear that such a reading is nonsensical and impossible (it's all about human beings and about Israel), and there is no such alternative reading in the MT tradition. So in my firm opinion it is pointless to argue about an incorrect and impossible text (though it is true that "sons of God" often does mean angels, that is not the text we have here). Dr. Robert Luginbill

And don't you know what Jesus is saying in John 10? Don't you remember what we have written here about this? Don't you remember what is written in this link, that I have posted earlier on this board? And that HE was basically saying "you didn't get your BVD's in a bunch when the psalmist called them "gods", but you do when I call myself the Son of God and PROVED who I am by the works that I have done"? And by this, HE was accusing THEM of judging falsely, just as the "gods" in Ps. 82 did?

Do YOU think Jesus believed there were other true Gods in the universe? More than one?



often is cited to connect sinful man with potential godhood. In this account, Jesus stood at the famous “porch of Solomon” and responded to the blindness of the religious leaders of His day. He rebuked their unbelief by quoting from Psalm 82:6, “I have said, Ye are gods.” Does this offer hope of eventual exaltation as understood by Latter-day Saints?

The problem with this interpretation is that Jesus did not say, “Ye can become gods.” Instead, the text reads, “Ye are [present tense] gods.” Not even Mormons believe that they are gods right now. At best, they are what many LDS leaders have called “gods in embryo.” In his book, Jesus the Christ, Mormon Apostle James Talmage—a well-respected authority to Latter-day Saints even today—explained that Jesus was referring to divinely appointed human judges in John 10:34:

“Divinely Appointed Judges Called ‘gods.’ In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called ‘gods.’ To this the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon’s Porch. Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title ‘gods.’”(Jesus the Christ, 501)

It should be noted that the LDS First Presidency appointed Talmage to write this book and, when completed, it was reviewed by a committee of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Some modern Mormon apologists, however, have rejected Talmage’s interpretation in favor of one that allows for the gods of Psalm 82:6 to be understood as a divine council of heavenly beings. In doing so, they reject the guidance of the First Presidency. While some Latter-day Saints give the impression that Talmage’s conclusion has little scholarly support, his interpretation agrees with that of many Hebrew and Old Testament scholars.

While other views could be entertained, many Bible commentators see this view as perfectly plausible. For example, Old Testament scholar Derek Kidner explains that “gods” could refer to human judges, “principalities and powers,” or to the gods of the heathen. Regarding this last possibility, he writes, “It is true that 1 Corinthians 10:20 speaks of pagan worship as the worship of demons, but this is to make the point that idolatry is never neutral but a surrender to Belial and his hosts; it is not an acceptance by Paul of heathen mythologies. Likewise the Old Testament never wavers in its abhorrence of heathen gods. For Yahweh to authenticate their claim with the words, ‘I say, “You are gods,”’ would be totally out of character.”
 

Bonnie

Super Member
And dberrie, when are you going to answer my questions about Ps. 82? Why have you been avoiding doing so? If you expect us to answer YOUR questions directly and honestly, then isn't it fair for us to expect you to do the same? Remember these?

1. IF these are actual deities, why do they favor the wicked and not defend the helpless? Wouldn't that be a sin? Wouldn't that make them sinners like demons?
2. Why, if they are deity, will they "die like men" and "fall like any prince"? Does actual Deity DIE? Human nature dies, but can God/Deity nature die?
3. IF these are actual deities who judge on earth, then how would people contact them when they required them to make a civil or religious judgment?
4. Are these "gods" in Ps. 82 exalted humans from other worlds? If so, why are they judging unrighteously? Why are they favoring the wicked and not defending the helpless? Do humans exalted to deity SIN?

When are you finally going to give me a straight-forward, honest answer, instead of just repeating yourself and ignoring my questions? Thus fulfilling ALL of the Mormon debate tactics listed in my signature, except for the last one?
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Would you like to see a reasonable commentary on John 10:34 and the surrounding context--that ol' bugaboo of Mormonism?

https://www.bibleref.com/John/10/John-10-34.html

Prior to this, Jesus was about to be stoned by a mob of hostile religious leaders. Their claim was that Jesus committed blasphemy, by claiming He and God were "one" (John 10:30–31; 10:33). Jesus' immediate response, however, was to refer to His miracles—indirectly pointing out that His words ought to be judged in the context of His ministry, and not with careless prejudice (John 10:32).

Starting here, Jesus begins to use a debate style which these men knew all too well. Religious leaders and scribes of this era would often debate Scripture, using an endless barrage of technicalities and convoluted explanations. Jesus engages in an abbreviated form of that technique to prove that, even by their own standards, they're being hypocrites.

Jesus cites Psalm 82:1–8. A reference to the Old Testament grounds His claim in something these men claim to take seriously: the Word of God. In the next verses, Jesus will compare the words of the Old Testament to the claim these men now claim is blasphemous. It's important to note that Jesus isn't making a blanket defense of all claims related to God. Rather, He'll once again point to all of the ways in which He fulfills the role of Messiah. If "gods" is an appropriate description—from God Himself—to those who are unable to perform His will, then how can they stone Jesus, who has performed actual miracles, for blasphemy by claiming to be the Son of God?

Do you think Jesus believed, by citing this verse, that He believed in other true Gods in the universe? And that His Father was "once a man on an earth" who had to learn how to become a god, by going from one glory to another until he achieved godhood?


Context Summary
 
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