Keeping the commandments and LDS theology

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why do you keep ignoring all the other verses I have quoted from Isaiah, where God is judging rulers? Don't you know that they are called "gods" in Ps. 82 because God appointed them and they rule in His place, among His people?

That could even be applied to Jesus Christ. How does that make them any less than real gods? Any less deified? Any less part of the Divine Council?

Bonnie--they are real gods--and all the king's horses, and all the king's men--can't restore the damage that does to your theology.

And don't you know that throughout its long history, Israel/Judah went whoring after other gods, worshiping them, instead of YHWH, and sometimes mixing in the worship of both?

How does that render them any less than real gods?

But does whoring after other gods prove those gods exist? Don't you remember, that the OT says that the "gods of the nations are IDOLS?" Do idols really exist, except in people's minds?

The Divine Council was a reality:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Do you not know that the NRSV is the only English translation that I am aware of, that has "gods" in vs. 8?

So--should we dust off the "as far as it's translated correctly" criticism--and dress it in white clothes for you?

As the scholars now know--some of the earliest manuscripts have heavenly beings as the gods--not the sons of Israel. Someone changed it. And it is a major change.

Bonnie--the reason the NRSV has the change--is because it's a recent translation--and the information has just become available and confirmed-- in the last few years of scholarly work. The verdict is in--the text has been altered. The verse should read--gods, or--"sons of God".


Can you see the footnote c that is linked? Whom is this entire song about? Isn't it about God's covenant people, the Israelites? Also, do you not know what Paul wrote to the Athenians, in Acts 17? Which echo this song?

Do you see the bolded part? Isn't that very similar to what is in Deut. 32, vs. 7-9?

Would you like to see what another scholar says about this Deut. 32:8 verse?

And don't you know what Jesus is saying in John 10? Don't you remember what we have written here about this? Don't you remember what is written in this link, that I have posted earlier on this board? And that HE was basically saying "you didn't get your BVD's in a bunch when the psalmist called them "gods", but you do when I call myself the Son of God and PROVED who I am by the works that I have done"? And by this, HE was accusing THEM of judging falsely, just as the "gods" in Ps. 82 did?

Do YOU think Jesus believed there were other true Gods in the universe? More than one?



I'm not sure how you are relating this to the reality of the Divine Council--or the reality the earlier manuscripts have "sons of God"--not "sons of Israel"--and heavenly beings, not earthly, and "heavens"--not "nations".

Those are major changes--and no scholar can deny that---- now that the manuscripts have been translated--and are now available to peruse.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
That could even be applied to Jesus Christ. How does that make them any less than real gods? Any less deified? Any less part of the Divine Council?

Bonnie--they are real gods--and all the king's horses, and all the king's men--can't restore the damage that does to your theology.

Deut. 4:35,39 says you're wrong.
Deut. 32:39 says you're wrong.
1 Kings 8:60 says you're wrong.
Ps. 86:10 says you're wrong.
Isa. 44:6,8 says you're wrong.
Isa. 45:5,21,22 says you're wrong.
Isa. 46:9 says you're wrong.
Mark 12:32 says you're wrong.
1 Cor. 8:4 says you're wrong.

That's why you have to constantly RUN AWAY from all those passages.

How does that render them any less than real gods?

See above.


The Divine Council was a reality:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

So--should we dust off the "as far as it's translated correctly" criticism--and dress it in white clothes for you?

Nice example of mockery.
It's translated just fine. You simply don't understand metaphor/imagery.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Do you think Jesus believe, by citing this verse, that He believed in other true Gods in the universe?

The Biblical writers surely believed in other real gods of the Divine Council:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

And so did the Early Church Fathers:

Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest. (ANF 1.262).
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
It's translated just fine. You simply don't understand metaphor/imagery.
I understand it fits the LDS theology just fine. Grinds to powder-- the theology preached here by the critics.

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
The Biblical writers surely believed in other real gods of the Divine Council:

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

And so did the Early Church Fathers:

You like to engage in CHERRY-PICKING when it comes to the ECF's.

Just like you IGNORE Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Isa. 43-46, Psa. 86:10, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, ALL which teach that "only one god exists", you also IGNORE the following from the ECF's:


“Chapter I.—There is but one God: the impossibility of its being otherwise. … He is the only God, the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.”
-- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II.I.1.


Therefore there is but one God, in whom complete energy and power can neither be lessened nor increased. […] Pythagoras also admits that there is but one God, saying that there is an incorporeal mind, which, being diffused and stretched through all nature, gives vital perception to all living creatures; “
-- Lactantius, Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus, Ch. XI
 

Bonnie

Super Member
You like to engage in CHERRY-PICKING when it comes to the ECF's.

Just like you IGNORE Deut. 4:35,39, Deut. 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Isa. 43-46, Psa. 86:10, Mark 12:32, 1 Cor. 8:4, ALL which teach that "only one god exists", you also IGNORE the following from the ECF's:


“Chapter I.—There is but one God: the impossibility of its being otherwise. … He is the only God, the only Lord, the only Creator, the only Father, alone containing all things, and Himself commanding all things into existence.”
-- Irenaeus, Against Heresies, II.I.1.


Therefore there is but one God, in whom complete energy and power can neither be lessened nor increased. […] Pythagoras also admits that there is but one God, saying that there is an incorporeal mind, which, being diffused and stretched through all nature, gives vital perception to all living creatures; “
-- Lactantius, Treatise on the Anger of God Addressed to Donatus, Ch. XI
Why would Mormons quote the ECFs when, according to their church, the church went completely apostate AFTER the last apostolic eye witness to Jesus Christ died? That means nearly all the ECFs came AFTER the church supposedly apostatized, so what they wrote is heresy, ,and we should not believe them. So, when Mormons quote them, they are quoting apostates to back up their heretical doctrines. But that doesn't really occur to them, does it?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Why would Mormons quote the ECFs when, according to their church, the church went completely apostate AFTER the last apostolic eye witness to Jesus Christ died?

Exactly!

The ECF's taught "only ONE god exists" (something Mormons reject).
The ECF's taught "sola Scriptura" (referring to the Bible), something Mormons REJECT.
The ECF's taught salvation by "faith alone, NOT BY WORKS" (something Mormons reject).

According to Mormons, ECF's are completely unreliable and error-ridden.
But when Mormons find something they think they can twist to support Mormonism, all of a sudden they become "authoritative".

Mormons are 100% inconsistent.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
You like to engage in CHERRY-PICKING when it comes to the ECF's.
When it comes to the testimony of the Early Church Fathers testifying men may become gods--there are a lot of cherries to pick from:


Ignatius - To the Ephesians 4.2 It is therefore good for you to be in perfect unity, that you may at all times be partakers (μετεχητε) of God. (Fathers of the Church - The Apostolic Fathers, vol. 1, p. 89.)

Justin - 1st Ap. 21 And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue. (ANF 1.170).

Justin - Dial. 124 ...thereby it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming "gods", and of having power to become sons of the Highest. (ANF 1.262).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 3.6.1 “God stood in the in the congregation of the gods, He judges among the gods.” He [here] refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption; but these are the Church. (ANF 1.419).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 4.33.4 ...how can they be saved unless it was God who wrought out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has [first] passed into man? (ANF 1.507).

Irenaeus - Adv. Her. 5.Pref ...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself. (ANF 1.526).

Theophilus - To Autolycus 27 Was man made by nature mortal? Certainly not. Was he, then, immortal? Neither do we affirm this. ...He was by nature neither mortal nor immortal. For if He had made him immortal from the beginning, He would have made him God. ... keeping the commandment of God, he should receive as a reward from Him immortality, and should become God. (ANF 2.105).

Tertullian - Adv. Hermogenes 5 For we shall be even gods, if we shall deserve to be among those of whom He declared, "I have said, Ye are gods," and "God standeth in the congregation of the gods." But this comes of His own grace, not from any property in us, because it is He alone who can make gods. (ANF 3.480).

Tertullian - Adv. Marcion Book II.25 Now, although Adam was by reason of his condition under law subject to death, yet was hope preserved to him by the Lord's saying, "Behold, Adam is become as one of us;" that is, in consequence of the future taking of the man into the divine nature [hominis in divinitatem].(ANF 3.317).

Clement of Alexandria - Exhortation 1 ...the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God. (ANF 2.174).

Clement of Alexandria - Strom. 4.23 On this wise it is possible for the [true] Gnostic already to have become God. “I said, Ye are gods, and sons of the highest.” (ANF 2.437).

Hippolytus - Refutation of All Heresies 5.29 The Creator did not wish to make him a god, and failed in His aim; nor an angel,—but a man. For if He had willed to make thee a god, He could have done so. Thou hast the example of the Logos. His will, however, was, that you should be a man, and He has made thee a man. But if thou art desirous of also becoming a god, obey Him that has created thee. (ANF 5.151).

Origen - Comm. on John 2.2,3 ...They may fear that the glory of Him who surpasses all creation may be lowered to the level of those other beings called gods. We drew this distinction between Him and them that we showed God the Word to be to all the other gods the minister of their divinity. (ANF 10.323).

Cyprian - Treatise 6.11 Therefore of this mercy and grace the Word and Son of God is sent as the dispenser and master, who by all the prophets of old was announced as the enlightener and teacher of the human race. He is the power of God,He is the reason, He is His wisdom and glory; He enters into a virgin; with the co-operation of the Holy Spirit, He is endued with flesh; God is mingled with man. This is our God, this is Christ, who, as the mediator of the two, puts on man that He may lead them to the Father. What man is, Christ was willing to be, that man may be what Christ is. (ANF 5.468).

Methodius - On the Passion of Christ 2 For the Word suffered, being in the flesh affixed to the cross, that He might bring man, who had been deceived by error, to His supreme and godlike majesty. (ANF 6.400).

Lactantius - The Divine Institutes 6.23 If anyone can incline toward this and strive after it, the Lord will own him as a servant, the Master will acknowledge this man as His disciple. The man will triumph over the earth. He will be exactly similar to God (hic erit consimilis Deo) who has embraced the virtue of God. (ANF 7.190).

Athanasius - Contra Arians 1.11.38 ...but rather He Himself has made us sons of the Father, and deified men by becoming Himself man. (NPNF, second series, 4.329).

Hilary of Poitiers - De Trinitate 10.7 For when God was born to be man the purpose was not that the Godhead should be lost, but that, the Godhead remaining, man should be born to be God. Thus Emmanuel is His name, which is God with us, that God might not be lowered to the level of man, but man raised to that of God. (NPNF, second series, 2.9.183-184)

Gregory of Nyssa - The Great Catechism 38 …since the God who was manifested infused Himself into perishable humanity for this purpose, viz. that by this communion with Deity mankind might at the same time be defied. (NPNF, second series, 2.5.506)

Gregory of Nyssa - Orationes de beatitudinibus 7 Man transcends [ekbainei] his own nature, he who was subject to corruption in his mortality becomes immune from it in his immortality, becomes eternal instead of being stuck in time—in a word, from a man he becomes God [theos ex anthrōpou ginomenos]. (Translation by Jaroslav Pelikan, in his Christianity and Classical Culture, p. 318.)

Basil - On the Spirit 9.23 Hence comes foreknowledge of the future, understanding of mysteries, apprehension of what is hidden, distribution of good gifts, the heavenly citizenship, a place in the chorus of angels, joy without end, abiding in God, the being made like to God, and, the highest of all, the being made God. (NPNF, second series, 8.16)

Ephraim the Syrian – Nisbene Hymns XLVIII.17-18 Divinity flew down and descended to raise and draw up humanity. The Son has made beautiful the servant’s deformity, and he has become a god, just as he desired. (St. Ephrem The Syrian – Hymns On Paradise, trans. Sebastian Brock, p. 73.)

Ambrose - On The Christian Faith 5.14 As, then, He was made sin and a curse not on His own account but on ours, so He became subject in us not for His own sake but for ours, being not in subjection in His eternal Nature, nor accursed in His eternal Nature. “For cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” Cursed He was, for He bore our curses; in subjection, also, for He took upon Him our subjection, but in the assumption of the form of a servant, not in the glory of God; so that whilst he makes Himself a partaker of our weakness in the flesh, He makes us partakers of the divine Nature in His power. But neither in one nor the other have we any natural fellowship with the heavenly Generation of Christ, nor is there any subjection of the Godhead in Christ. But as the Apostle has said that on Him through that flesh which is the pledge of our salvation, we sit in heavenly places, though certainly not sitting ourselves, so also He is said to be subject in us through the assumption of our nature. (NPNF, second series, 2.10.306.)

Augustine - The City of God 21.16 Accordingly vices are then only to be considered overcome when they are conquered by the love of God, which God Himself alone gives, and which He gives only through the Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who became a partaker of our mortality that He might make us partakers of His divinity. (NPNF, first series, 2.465)

Jerome - Homily 14 ...That we are gods, not so by nature, but by grace. "But as many as received him he gave power of becoming sons of God." I made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods. "I said: You are gods, all of you sons of the most High."(The Fathers of the Church, 48.106)

Hilary of Arles (Archbishop of Arles b. 403 d. 449) - Introductory Commentary on 2 Peter Just as God stepped out of his nature to become a partaker of our humanity, so we are called to step out of our nature to become partakers of his divinity. (Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture - New Testament XI, p. 133.)

John Chrysostom - Homilies on the Acts #32 ...the man can become God, and a child of God. For we read, “I have said, Ye are gods, all of you are the children of the Most High.” (Ps. lxxxii. 6) And what is greater, the power to become both God and angel and child of God is put into his own hands. (NPNF, first series, 11.205)

That's all the space that is afforded--or I could post much more.
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why would Mormons quote the ECFs when, according to their church, the church went completely apostate AFTER the last apostolic eye witness to Jesus Christ died?
Cite, please. That just isn't true. The LDS believe the apostasy happened gradually.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Why do you ignore my posts that prove that the "gods" here means corrupt rulers and judges?
There is no proof. There is only your opinion.
Why do you ignore all of the Isaiah verses I posted?
The Isaiah verses refer to the Psalm. The Psalm does not refer to Isaiah. In other words, Isaiah is expanding the context of Ps 82 to include anyone who judges unjustly. He's not talking just about rulers or judges. He literally listed almost all of Israel, every person in Israel. But oddly, nowhere in Isaiah's verses does he mention that any of those people were sons of God, nowhere. Nor does he call any of them elohim. Isaiah is talking about judging unjustly, not about a council, not about God standing in the midst of that council, not about them dying like men and falling like one of the princes. None of that exists in the Isaiah verses. How do you know that Isaiah isn't talking about you all? You all also judge unjustly. You have no authority or special knowledge that we're wrong. You just think we're wrong based on your own private interpretation of the scriptures. So, how do we know that those versions aren't just describing people who are, in general, children of wrath?
An WHY do you continually ignore all of the verses we have posted that proclaim, throughout the Bible ,that THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD? Which put the "gods" in Ps. 82 into proper perspective?
Because all of those verses either explicitly or implicitly state that there are other gods. We have demonstrated this on numerous occasions. Why do you continuously ignore that?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
What it boils down to, is that Mormons are henotheists. Which is still heresy
I'm not going to get into the meaning of words, but we recognize only one God. That does not preclude the existence of other gods, which is obviously taught in the Bible. It is only heresy to you all because of your traditions which have nothing to do with what the Bible teaches.

You are presenting the information that fuels the argument that our critics pick and choose which verses to accept and ignore the rest. The fact remains the Bible witnesses the existence of other gods. But to us, there is but one God, the Father. If we are henotheists, then so were the early Christians, especially Paul who spelled it out. I just quoted him from the section right after he stated that there are indeed other gods and other lords, many even. Is that not henotheism according to your statement?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Is keeping the commandments a work we must do?
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Bump for anyone
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Bump for anyone
Why didn't you give me an answer? Why do you keep repeating yourself? Don't you remember that I have answered this many times on the past several boards? Do you think my answer will change?

    • You are trying to be like the Judaizers, who tried to be righteous by obedience to the Law. But what did Paul say about that:

      "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did NOT pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness WHICH IS BY FAITH. But Israel, pursuing a LAW of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did NOT pursue it BY FAITH, but,as it were, BY WORKS." (Rom. 9:30-31a).

      No one can be justified by obedience to the Law, because NO ONE CAN DO SO, EVER, because we are ALL sinners and everything we to please God would be tainted by sin. James says if we are guilty of breaking ONE commandment--we are guilty of ALL OF THEM.

      The rich young man was trying to be justified by obedience to the Law. So are Mormons--both their man-made laws and God's laws. BUT--Jesus told the young man that one thing was STILL lacking--he needed to give all he had to the poor (leaving his old life behind him) and follow Jesus--which would mean putting his faith and trust in Jesus, would it not? But what did the young man do? He refused to follow Jesus or have faith and trust in Him, and followed his old life with its earthly riches, instead.

      One thing was STILL lacking in the young man. So, did he REALLY keep God's laws perfectly? 100%? What did Jesus show the young man, by telling him to sell all he had, give it to the poor and follow Him, Jesus? What was the young man's reaction?

      And looky here what Paul wrote in Romans 1:4c-5:

      "...by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of Holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, THROUGH WHOM we have received GRACE and apostleship to bring about the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH among the Gentiles for His Name's sake."

      What does "obedience of faith" mean, dberrie?

      And how was Paul able to do what God required of him? Isn't doing what God requires obeying Him?

      "But by the GRACE OF GOD, I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the GRACE OF GOD WITH ME." (1 Cor. 15:10)

      Did Paul obey God by his own power? OR was it God's grace--GIVEN to him--that enabled him to labor for God in Christ Jesus?

      And:

      "...of which {taking the Gospel to the Gentiles} I was made a minister, according to the GIFT of God's grace, which was given to me according to the WORKING OF HIS POWER.. To me, the very least of the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ." (Eph. 3:7-8)

      so, did Paul obey God in order to GET God's grace? OR did he obey God BECAUSE he had God's grace--which God GAVE to Paul?
      And do YOU obey ALL of God's commandments perfectly, 24/7, 365? Because remember what James wrote:


      For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend on one point, he is guilty of all.(KJV James 2:10)
      SO--what say you, dberrie? How are YOU doing in the perfect keeping of God's commandments department?

      There are only TWO ways to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes, dberrie. The first is by keeping God's commandments perfectly all the time, never stumbling in even one point, for as long as one lives. That is what Jesus was telling the rich young ruler. But He demonstrated to him that he didn't even keep the first and most important commandment--loving God above all else. The young man loved his wealth more--he broke the first commandment and therefore, broke ALL of them.

      BUT--there is a SECOND way to be justified and declared righteous in God's eyes. Do YOU know that way, dberrie?




      Romans 4:4-5 English Standard Version (ESV)

      4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
      By our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross and did PERFECTLY are we declared "not guilty" and righteous in God's eyes--for Jesus' righteousness is then credited to us, by our faith in Him and His finished work on the cross.

      Which do you think is more sure, dberrie--depending upon your OWN IMperfect keeping of God's commandments--because you seem to think that is what Jesus wants us to do: keep God's commandments perfectly in order to be saved--or depending upon Jesus' perfect keeping of the commandments in our stead and for our sake? Which is more sure? More dependable?
  • Now, is keeping the commandments as WORK we must do, to be saved? Yes or no? Haven't you stated on here that we are saved by grace, NOT by faith OR works...? So, if keeping the commandments a work we must do, to be saved, how is that true grace, which is God's UNdeserved love? ? But CAN anyone keep the commandments perfectly, 24/7? Can YOU?

 
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dberrie2020

Well-known member
Why didn't you give me an answer? Why do you keep repeating yourself? Don't you remember that I have answered this many times on the past several boards? Do you think my answer will change?
  • Now, is keeping the commandments as WORK we must do, to be saved? Yes or no?

Yes.

As the scriptures show:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


So, Bonnie--is the love of God necessary for salvation to occur?

Yes or No?
 

dberrie2020

Well-known member
Haven't you stated on here that we are saved by grace, NOT by faith OR works...? So, if keeping the commandments a work we must do, to be saved, how is that true grace, which is God's UNdeserved love? ?

I believe there is something which you have rejected--but the scriptures testify to:

God gives His salvational grace to them which keep His commandments:

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Bonnie--that's the point the critics here miss, IMO. Claiming we are saved by God's grace(which I believe)--leaves one huge elephant sitting in the room, IE--who does God give this grace to?

"they that do his commandments,"
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yes.

As the scriptures show:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version (KJV)

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Revelation 22:14--King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 14:15--King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17--King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:3--King James Version (KJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

1 John 3:24--King James Version (KJV)
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

John 14:21---King James Version (KJV)
21, He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


So, Bonnie--is the love of God necessary for salvation to occur?

Yes or No?
Have you not stated we are saved by Grace, not works, and not faith--just grace? And now you say obeying commandments is a WORK WE must do--to receive this grace, is it not?? Would you like me to show you what I archived about this from the last boards?

Does anyone else besides me see the contradiction?
 
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Theo1689

Well-known member
Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Bump for anyone

Jesus is pointing to the Law, as described in Rom. 3:19-20 (which you ignore), and Gal. 3:24-25 (which you ignore):

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,


The ruler realized that he could not obey the law, but he had not yet been convicted of his sin, or his need for God's mercy.

You keep trying to MISINTERPRET this passage to make it sound like you need to "obey" to be saved, when your interpretation CONTRADICTS explicit Scripture:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.


... not to mention contradicting the ECF's, which I know you love SO much! ;) :


“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.”
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

“God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but they gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas,
 

Bonnie

Super Member
There is no proof. There is only your opinion.

The Isaiah verses refer to the Psalm. The Psalm does not refer to Isaiah. In other words, Isaiah is expanding the context of Ps 82 to include anyone who judges unjustly. He's not talking just about rulers or judges. He literally listed almost all of Israel, every person in Israel. But oddly, nowhere in Isaiah's verses does he mention that any of those people were sons of God, nowhere. Nor does he call any of them elohim. Isaiah is talking about judging unjustly, not about a council, not about God standing in the midst of that council, not about them dying like men and falling like one of the princes. None of that exists in the Isaiah verses. How do you know that Isaiah isn't talking about you all? You all also judge unjustly. You have no authority or special knowledge that we're wrong. You just think we're wrong based on your own private interpretation of the scriptures. So, how do we know that those versions aren't just describing people who are, in general, children of wrath?

Because all of those verses either explicitly or implicitly state that there are other gods. We have demonstrated this on numerous occasions. Why do you continuously ignore that?

Jesus is pointing to the Law, as described in Rom. 3:19-20 (which you ignore), and Gal. 3:24-25 (which you ignore):

Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Gal. 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,


The ruler realized that he could not obey the law, but he had not yet been convicted of his sin, or his need for God's mercy.

You keep trying to MISINTERPRET this passage to make it sound like you need to "obey" to be saved, when your interpretation CONTRADICTS explicit Scripture:

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Tim. 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Tit. 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Rom. 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

Rom. 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.


... not to mention contradicting the ECF's, which I know you love SO much! ;) :


“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognize the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, ‘Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.’ All these, therefore, were highly honored, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works we have have wrought in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
- Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch. 32 (AD 99)

“Every mystery which is enacted by our Lord Jesus Christ asks only for faith. The mystery was enacted at that time for our sake and aimed at our resurrection and liberation, should we have faith in the mystery of Christ and in Christ.”
- Marius Victorinus Epistle to the Galatians,1.3.7 (AD 356)

“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us in righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.”
- Basil of Caesarea, Homilia XX, Homilia De Humilitate (AD 379)

“God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
- Ambrosiaster, on 1 Cor 1:14b (AD 384)

“They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
- Ambrosiaster, on Rom. 3:24 (AD 384)

“The patriarch Abraham himself before receiving circumcision had been declared righteous on the score of faith alone; before circumcision, the text says, Abraham believed God, and credit for it brought him to righteousness.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on Genesis, 27.7 (AD 407)

“See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the ‘law of faith’? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 7, vs. 27 (AD 407)

For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
- Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Romans, Homily 8, Rom. 4:1-2 (AD 407)

“God justifies by faith alone” (“Deus ex sola fide justificat”)
- Jerome, Epestolam Ad Romanos, Caput X, v.3 (AD 420)

“What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, but they gift of justification comes only from faith.”
- Bede, Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.(AD 735)

"But in addition that you might believe also this, that sins are given to you individually, this is the testimony, which the Holy Spirit bestows in your heart, saying, Your sins are forgiven by you. For the Apostle thinks thus, that man is gratuitously justified through faith."
- Bernard of Clairvaux , First Sermon on the Annunciation (AD 1153)

“Therefore the hope of justification is not found in them [the moral and ceremonial requirements of the law], but in faith alone.”
- Thomas Aquinas,
Thanks Theo. Did you see the contradiction from the other poster, that I put in my post?

Mormons see what they want to see, rather than what is ACTUALLY IN THE BIBLE. Sad. The god of this world has blinded them to the truth.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I'm not going to get into the meaning of words, but we recognize only one God.

So you don't recognize Heavenly Father?
I'm sure He will be pleased to hear that...

That does not preclude the existence of other gods, which is obviously taught in the Bible.

Only false gods.

Oh, that's right... You still have NOT demonstrated multiple "true gods" in the Bible.
You just make the claim and run away...

It is only heresy to you all because of your traditions which have nothing to do with what the Bible teaches.

<sigh>
Nothing but empty attacks designed to derail discussion away from Mormonism.


You are presenting the information that fuels the argument that our critics pick and choose which verses to accept and ignore the rest.

Mormons are the only ones "ignoring" verses.
Ignoring the "only one god" verses...
Ignoring the "not by works" verses...
Ignoring the "elders and deacons must be married" verses...
Ignoring the "marriage ends at death" verses...


You (falsely) CLAIM that we are "ignoring" verses which allegedly teach of multiple true gods, but you are never able to actually PRESENT any such "verses".

The fact remains the Bible witnesses the existence of other gods. But to us, there is but one God, the Father. If we are henotheists, then so were the early Christians, especially Paul who spelled it out. I just quoted him from the section right after he stated that there are indeed other gods and other lords, many even. Is that not henotheism according to your statement?

But those were in reference to IDOLS, who Paul said "were nothing in this world:

Rom. 8:1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. 2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.

4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
 
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