Keeping the commandments and LDS theology

[brotherofJared]

Don't you know that BELIEVING that other gods exists does NOT mean that they actually DO?

Sure, we know that. Just like believing that God is one being with three personalities does not mean that He actually is one being with three personalities.

Do you not know that the OT says that the "gods of the nations are IDOLS"?

The gods mentioned in Ps 82 and repeated by Jesus Christ in John 10 are not "gods of the nations". And from what we can see in the text referring to the divine council, Israel didn't go whoring after them.

I'm pretty sure you don't believe this gods listed in Ps 82 are gods of the nations. Why would you use irrelevant verses from the OT as an argument? The fact remains, that God called these beings, gods. They were all sons of the most high [God]. Bonnie, Ps 82 is not equivocating. There can be no doubt that there are many real gods that God stood in council with who apparently answered to the most high [God]. There are three tiers of gods mentioned in Ps 82 and from the text, NONE of them are idols.

 

[brotherofJared]

Don't you know that because you THINK it fits LDS theology, does NOT mean that Mormons correctly understand it?

That's exactly what that means. We have never veered from that theology. We weren't waiting for some scholar or for some ancient copy of the text to reveal that major changes had occurred in the text that lead most of the modern Christian world to incorrect conclusions. We obtained it straight from God and while there is yet more to understand, even for us, it is clear that we don't have to make that course correction. You all do, but you're never going to, not until you abandon your false religions and come join us.

But yes, Bonnie, we have been vindicated by these findings. We aren't the ones who don't understand it. You all are.

 

[brotherofJared]

How many true Gods did God say exist, besides Himself?

Your adjective is irrelevant. We are talking about true gods. We are talking about gods, period. There are false gods, there are gods that are no gods, there are idols that are gods, there are evil gods, there are gods and then there is God.

And don't you know that angels are created heavenly beings?

No. We don't.

Are they deities?

Possibly.

 

[brotherofJared]

Don't you think God meant what He said when He stated

I believe he meant what he said when he said, "I said, ye are gods". Don't you?

I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from Me, THERE IS NO GOD."?

That's not what he said. I believe you are paraphrasing your traditions into what he said.
completing the above phrase,
There is no god besides me - implies there are other gods, they are not beside him
There is no god like you - implies there are other gods that are not like him
The fool says "there is no god"

So, ripping the verses out of context only serves your false traditions. Why can't you accept the Bible's message. None of the verses you list state that there are no other gods. The Bible repeatedly states that there are other gods, both old and new testaments and that there is no other god like Jehovah, he alone is our Savior. There is no other Savior. He alone is Savior, but we know that God, His Father and Our Father is not our Savior.

 

[brotherofJared]

However, "figure of speech" isn't the exact word I was looking for. "Title" would be more accurate

How is that any different? Is God a title for God? Is that different than the title used for gods?

And don't you know that in a few places in the OT, humans were called "gods"?

And don't you know that where those are called gods, they are NOT called the sons of the most High [God]? Don't you know that?

The Pharisees also knew that Jesus was accusing them of judging falsely

How would they know that? Jesus didn't say one word accusing them of anything.

, by quoting this Psalm.

I believe you are seeing things that aren't there. You think that they understood it that way, but there is no indication that that's what Jesus meant or that those on Solomon's porch took it that way. The only thing that Jesus quoted from Ps 82 was, "I said, ye are gods". Then clarifying the meaning of that statement "If he called them gods, and the scriptures cannot be broken", then why is it a problem that I am the son of God. Not one word about judging justly, not one word about dying like men or falling like one of the princes for so doing. You're making it all up. The only point Jesus was making was that God called them gods. Period, end of story. We can only guess at what they understood, but the final statement was inflammatory. There can be no doubt that it caused them to want to kill him, since that's the reason they wanted to kill him that started the argument. They understood him to say that the Father and he were one. Saying that the Father is in me and I am in the Father is saying that the Father and I are one.

Ps 82 should have placated them but I believe that Jesus incited them on purpose by making the very claim that he made when they first wanted to kill him.

But whereas the "gods" in Ps. 82 were merely human judges

False. There is no evidence that the gods in Ps 82 are human judges. That is your tradition to explain away the obvious meaning of the verses.

 

[brotherofJared]

Why would Mormons quote the ECFs when, according to their church, the church went completely apostate AFTER the last apostolic eye witness to Jesus Christ died?

Their teachings serve a purpose. What they taught and believed as the knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ was fading is not what modern Christians teach today (except us, of course). We can also see that the very same ECFs who once taught some of these doctrines caved in to mainstream Christianity which no longer taught the gospel as taught in the early church. The ECFs are an example of the apostasy's effects in action.

 

[brotherofJared]

Now, is keeping the commandments as WORK we must do, to be saved? Yes or no?

Yes. If we fail in trying, we then rely on the regeneration through Christ's atonement, but that doesn't excuse us from trying.

 

[brotherofJared]

Haven't you stated on here that we are saved by grace, NOT by faith OR works...? So, if keeping the commandments a work we must do, to be saved, how is that true grace

Grace comes through the atonement for those who reconcile themselves to Christ and no others. I might add that one can be reconciled to Christ both now and in the hereafter.

If one remains reconciled to Christ, salvational grace can be effective in them. Bonnie, those that receive salvational grace must do something different than those who don't, otherwise, per your definition of grace, everyone will be saved because everyone is undeserving, even those who repent and never sin again.

 

[brotherofJared]

But CAN anyone keep the commandments perfectly, 24/7? Can YOU?

No, but anyone can remain reconciled to Christ 24/7, even when they fail. The key is not perfection. The key is Christ and that's why it's called grace.

 

[brotherofJared]

Have you not stated we are saved by Grace, not works, and not faith--just grace?

Yes. That grace comes upon everyone, good and bad. Just grace. But the resurrection to live only comes to those whose deeds were good. Those whose deeds were evil have a different kind of resurrection, but everyone is resurrected. That is grace that came through the atonement of Jesus Christ upon all mankind.

 

[brotherofJared]

Do you think the NRSV is more recent than OTHER translations? Have you not looked this up?

NRSV--1989
ESV--2001:

Are you suggesting that there have been more recent archeological findings that removed the understanding concerning divine councils? Does the ESV document those findings?

Obviously, the ESV uses scholarly interpretations of different sources than does the NRSV. Like your scholar didn't like the Qumran sources claiming that they are probably a back-translation to the LXX, perhaps the ESV also does the same. But at the very least, we can see that there is a discrepancy. And that alone would indicate that the Bible we have today is not entirely reliable.

That you would even bring this up indicates to me that you are grasping at straws. My point, in these discussions, is that you and all the rest of modern Christianity is in no position to judge another person's beliefs. That's why we don't do that. We offer our beliefs and suggest that anyone wanting to know if it's true to go ask the source of all truth. That being said, we have an obligation to defend what we believe.

 

[dberrie2020]

Why don't you see how I am relating this to what you posted...could it be you do NOT want to see the connection, so that, in seeing, you might be led to the truth?

Do you think the NRSV is more recent than OTHER translations? Have you not looked this up?

NRSV--1989
ESV--2001:

The ESV also changes it to "sons of God"--not "sons of Israel":

Deuteronomy 32:8---English Standard Version
8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.

The ESV also maintains the gods of the "Divine Council":

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

 

[dberrie2020]

Didn't you see where the verse says that "the Most High gave to the NATIONS their inheritance, when He DIVIDED MANKIND"? Don't you see "nations" HERE?

There is something which you might want to consider before you get too involved in that claim--which is--the earlier manuscript showed the newer manuscripts not only changed "sons of God" to "sons of Israel"--it also changed "heavens" to "nations":

https://journal.interpreterfoundati...l-in-the-hebrew-bible-and-the-book-of-mormon/

"But the scribal alterations did not end with v. 8. At the conclusion of the song, Moses exults, “Rejoice, O ye nations [גוים; gōyîm], with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and [Page 169]to his people” (kjv v. 43). Again, consulting modern translations reveals a significant difference. “Praise, O heavens, his people, worship him, all you gods! For he will avenge the blood of his children, and take vengeance on his adversaries; he will repay those who hate him, and cleanse the land for his people” (NRSV v. 43, emphasis added). The reading provided by the NRSV (among other modern translations), draws from the textual witness of 4QDeutq. As preserved in this fragment, Moses adjures the members of the divine council, identified as “gods” (אלהים; ’ēlōhîm), to worship Yahweh. A poetic parallelism conceptually linking the “heavens” (שמים; šāmaîm) and the “gods” (אלהים; ’ēlōhîm) is also evident in the Qumran version, but lost in the Masoretic reworking, which changed “heavens” to “nations” and omitted reference to the gods worshipping Yahweh altogether. The reading in 4QDeutq aligns closely with the Septuagint, which represents Moses as commanding: “Rejoice, O heavens, with him [i.e. God], and bow down before him, all you sons of God” (εὐφράνθητε, οὐρανοί, ἅμα αὐτῷ, καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες υἱοὶ θεοῦ; euphanthēte ouranoi hama autō euphanthēte ouranoi hama autō kai proskynēsatōsan autō pantes uioi theou).

The transmission of Deuteronomy 32 indicates that the divine council is (or was) so overtly present in the text that scribes wishing to downplay the apparent polytheism undertook alterations that would make it theologically suitable for emerging orthodox trends toward a “purer” monotheism."


IOW--not only was "sons of God" changed to "sons of Israel"--the "heavens" was changed to "nations":

Deuteronomy 32:43---New American Standard Bible
43 Rejoice, you nations, with His people;
For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
And will return vengeance on His adversaries,
And will atone for His land and His people.”


Deuteronomy 32:43---New Revised Standard Version
43 Praise, O heavens, his people,
worship him, all you gods!
For he will avenge the blood of his children,
and take vengeance on his adversaries;
he will repay those who hate him,
and cleanse the land for his people.

 

[dberrie2020]

The bible witnesses NO SUCH THING as other gods--only idols and demons.

The Divine Council--as demons?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Since the testimony of the Biblical text is that God takes His place in the Divine Council of gods--are you claiming God is a demon or idol?

But you and other Mormons STILL ignore what ELSE Paul wrote IN CONTEXT:

There is NO GOD BUT ONE. Of course, to the polytheistic pagans, there WAS more than one god FOR THEM--there were dozens!

Are you claiming the Biblical writers were "pagans"?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

 

[brotherofJared]

The ESV also changes it to "sons of God"--not "sons of Israel":

Cha-ching!

 

[brotherofJared]

There is something which you might want to consider before you get too involved in that claim--which is--the earlier manuscript showed the newer manuscripts not only changed "sons of God" to "sons of Israel"--it also changed "heavens" to "nations":

https://journal.interpreterfoundati...l-in-the-hebrew-bible-and-the-book-of-mormon/

"But the scribal alterations did not end with v. 8. At the conclusion of the song, Moses exults, “Rejoice, O ye nations [גוים; gōyîm], with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and [Page 169]to his people” (kjv v. 43). Again, consulting modern translations reveals a significant difference. “Praise, O heavens, his people, worship him, all you gods! For he will avenge the blood of his children, and take vengeance on his adversaries; he will repay those who hate him, and cleanse the land for his people” (NRSV v. 43, emphasis added). The reading provided by the NRSV (among other modern translations), draws from the textual witness of 4QDeutq. As preserved in this fragment, Moses adjures the members of the divine council, identified as “gods” (אלהים; ’ēlōhîm), to worship Yahweh. A poetic parallelism conceptually linking the “heavens” (שמים; šāmaîm) and the “gods” (אלהים; ’ēlōhîm) is also evident in the Qumran version, but lost in the Masoretic reworking, which changed “heavens” to “nations” and omitted reference to the gods worshipping Yahweh altogether. The reading in 4QDeutq aligns closely with the Septuagint, which represents Moses as commanding: “Rejoice, O heavens, with him [i.e. God], and bow down before him, all you sons of God” (εὐφράνθητε, οὐρανοί, ἅμα αὐτῷ, καὶ προσκυνησάτωσαν αὐτῷ πάντες υἱοὶ θεοῦ; euphanthēte ouranoi hama autō euphanthēte ouranoi hama autō kai proskynēsatōsan autō pantes uioi theou).

The transmission of Deuteronomy 32 indicates that the divine council is (or was) so overtly present in the text that scribes wishing to downplay the apparent polytheism undertook alterations that would make it theologically suitable for emerging orthodox trends toward a “purer” monotheism."


IOW--not only was "sons of God" changed to "sons of Israel"--the "heavens" was changed to "nations":

Deuteronomy 32:43---New American Standard Bible
43 Rejoice, you nations, with His people;
For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
And will return vengeance on His adversaries,
And will atone for His land and His people.”


Deuteronomy 32:43---New Revised Standard Version
43 Praise, O heavens, his people,
worship him, all you gods!
For he will avenge the blood of his children,
and take vengeance on his adversaries;
he will repay those who hate him,
and cleanse the land for his people.

Looks pretty plain and precious to me.
If this much was lost, can you imagine how much more was lost? No. No one can because he have nothing to compare it too, except maybe the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[Bonnie]

Looks pretty plain and precious to me.
If this much was lost, can you imagine how much more was lost? No. No one can because he have nothing to compare it too, except maybe the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Nothing was lost. That is a lie from Joseph Smith, Jr. a known liar and proven false prophet.

 

[Bonnie]

Cha-ching!

Yes, there are variations in this verse in the Bible, due to different manuscript copies. But the NRSV is still the only one that has "according to the numbers of gods" in it. I think "sons of God" is fine, since it implies that "sons" here means all different people on earth. Paul must have known of this verse, being an expert in the Law and a Pharisee, because he told the Athenians:

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. (NIV)

OF course, we in Christianity know better than to isolate a verse and build a whole doctrine around it. We take ALL of the Bible into consideration. Mormons should try it sometime.

 

[Bonnie]

The Divine Council--as demons?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Since the testimony of the Biblical text is that God takes His place in the Divine Council of gods--are you claiming God is a demon or idol?



Are you claiming the Biblical writers were "pagans"?

Psalm 82:1---English Standard Version
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:

Why don't you stop misrepresenting what I write and answer my simple questions? Why are you so afraid to? Did you not see the "if" I started each question off with?

1. If these gods are real deities, why are they favoring the wicked and not defending the helpless? Wouldn't that be a sin? Wouldn't that make them sinners, demons?
2. If these are real deities, who render judgments, then how would people contact them to make judgments?
3. If these are real deities, BY NATURE, how could deity die? Jesus is God, but He had to BECOME a man so He could die.
4. Are these gods exalted men who made it to the CK? IF so, then why would they favor the wicked? And not defend the helpless? Wouldn't that make them sinners? Aren't 'they supposed to be holy like HF?

When are you going to give me straight-forward answers to these questions, instead of trying to deflect to get out of answering me, thus demonstrating Mormon debate tactic no. 1 in my list in my signature (though this isn't deflecting from the OP but from my questions)?

 

[Bonnie]

The gods in Ps 82 are not belly gods. Isn't that interesting. Try to keep the argument on tract and quit equivocating.

And the "gods" in Ps. 82 are not real deities, either, but corrupt rulers and judges. But Paul STILL said that some have the belly as their god. So, is the belly a true god or a false god? Bellies exist, but are they TRUE DEITY?