Kenosis Heresy

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Of course God was looking ahead to Jesus for redemption and restoration for Augustine says," Thy Today is Eternity, therefore didst thou begat the Co- eternal to whom didst thou saith this day have I begotten thee ".
ROFLOL, this is the most ridiculous non Biblical statement that I have heard anyone make and it only proves that you are following flesh and blood in your understanding of the scriptures and not the Holy Spirit.

In other words you savor those things that belong to men and their finite thinking rather than what belongs to God and his infinite mind and the same mind that was in Christ also by God's Holy Spirit that dwelt within him.

1 Corinthians 2:13-16 New International Version

13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we (who are truly led by the Spirit) have the mind of Christ.



1 Corinthians 3:1-2 New King James Version

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;





Clearly your Monotheism teaches two beings in unity . One divine and one human , whereas we understand Unity to be numerical and thus only logically and relatively a distinction in the supposita of which it is spoken.


....... Alan
Yep and out of your own mouth you again revealed what mind you are getting your doctrine from in your statement above
 
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aeg4971

Active member
ROFLOL, so you believe in Hebrews 1:5 that when the writer says, "for unto which of the angels did God ever say you are my Son this day have I begotten you", he was speaking of a function and not a celestial being huh? And you are telling me that I am speculating?

That is bunk, for although people can also be messengers, the Bible also reveals that God has created heavenly celestial beings that are called angels and the Bible specifically speaks of angels in Hebrews as actual celestial beings and tells us that God never spoke unto any of them and told them that they were his Son.


Here is the Encyclopedia Britannica on the Definition of the word Logos and you should understand that John was using the Philosophical Greek Logos and its Hebrew version the Memra, pretty much the same way that Paul used "the alter to the unknown God" in the Book of Acts.

Logos, (Greek: “word,” “reason,” or “plan”) plural logoi, in ancient Greek philosophy and early Christian theology, the divine reason implicit in the cosmos, ordering it and giving it form and meaning.



Notice, nowhere in the early definitions of the Logos, is it ever stated that the Logos was an actual living person and even in the Hebrew version of the Memra, the Memra was only a personification of God's word and not an actual sentient living being or second person of God like trins try to argue and the Jewish Encyclopedia will reveal this also.


Oh come on dude, it proves that God foreknew Jeremiah intimately as conceived first in his mind and plan before he was actually created in the physical world and so does Psalm 139 concerning David also and this proves that Jesus pre existed only in God's intimate foreknowledge of him and before any others in creation also.

This is what Paul is speaking of in Colossians 1:15-16 and also in Romans 8:29. Jesus was the firstborn image of the invisible God over all creation and which means he was the firstborn conceived in the mind = Logos of God over all creation.

Romans 8:29 proves this as what Paul meant because all saints from the beginning of creation unto the end are predestined to be conformed to his image and this also includes Enoch, Noah, Abraham, David and all of God's elect from the beginning to the end.

Which being Jesus was not the firstborn in the order of the physical creation, he was the firstborn as conceived in the mind of God = the Logos.

For if every single saint from the beginning of creation to the end of creation was predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus and the scriptures cannot be broken, then Jesus had to be the first to be conceived in God's mind and at the center of his Divine Logos and you do need to consider the full definition of the Logos.


Well my Bible tells me, "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be confirmed" what does your say dude?


ROFLOL, Sorry but there is nothing philosophical at all about what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3 and especially in what he wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:13-16 and following into 1 Corinthians 3:1-2 and as I have copied and pasted below.

For this is the very reason why there are right now so many different divisions of tongues of false doctrine in the world (Mystery Babylon), including that of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

1 Corinthians 2:

13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we (who are truly spiritual) have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3: And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,






I just gave it unto you by the true definition of the word "Logos" before the apostate churches" added their unsupported inflections on the the word.

Furthermore, I also have you proof from what is truly being taught in Colossians 1:15-16 and also in Romans 8:29 and also from Jeremiah 1:5 and from Psalm 139, and you really shouldn't need a picture drawn for you.

For if all God's elect were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus who is the firstborn image of the invisible God of all the creation as a human being, and as per Colossians 1:15 and Romans 8:29, then this proves that Paul was not speaking of Jesus as the first creation at all.

For what it proves is that Paul was speaking of Jesus as the firstborn human being in the image of the invisible God that was conceived in God's mind and unto which all his elect from the beginning of the creation to the end would be predestined to be conformed to the image of.

Like I said, you are led by your flesh and also by the flesh of the teachers of the Jehovah's witnesses and that is why you can't see these facts in the scriptures, but they are there to be seen and understood by those who are led by the Spirit.

Furthermore, Jehovah's Witnesses speculate on many things in the scriptures and without even the slightest bit of evidence from any of the inspired writers of the NT also and like I the examples I posted in a previous reply and you knew better than to get into being you know what I am talking about.

Like the classes that they divide God's people into such as "the Mordecai Naomi class" and which is utter nonsense and not at all revealed in the scriptures.

You are also wrong about what you believe about how we are to be saved as well and other than the truth about the nature of God and Christ, this is the most important issue in the scriptures.
Dude even with your posted definition of Logos above , why on earth would Supremely being itself own Logos not be Divine Life in itself by itself ? God is nowise composite or mutable therefore His own Word cannot be anything less than God Himself. Furthermore in the determination of the Son.

......Alan
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Dude even with your posted definition of Logos above , why on earth would Supremely being itself own Logos not be Divine Life in itself by itself ? God is nowise composite or mutable therefore His own Word cannot be anything less than God Himself. Furthermore in the determination of the Son.

......Alan
Hebrews 1:3 "Who is the brightness of God's glory and the etched copy (charakter) of the foundation of God's person and upholding all things by the rhema of God's power"

Sorry but that Greek word "Charakter and the history of what it was used to speak of reveals that the writer of Hebrew was saying that God copied his Logos from his own nature into the human nature and person of Jesus Christ and then required Jesus to keep what he copied into him through perfect obedience and through every temptation that all men also deal with.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Hebrews 1:3 "Who is the brightness of God's glory and the etched copy (charakter) of the foundation of God's person and upholding all things by the rhema of God's power"

Sorry but that Greek word "Charakter and the history of what it was used to speak of reveals that the writer of Hebrew was saying that God copied his Logos from his own nature into the human nature and person of Jesus Christ and then required Jesus to keep what he copied into him through perfect obedience and through every temptation that all men also deal with.
Upholding ALL things by the Word of HIS power.
 

101G

Well-known member
the writer of Hebrew was saying that God copied his Logos from his own nature into the human nature and person of Jesus Christ and then required Jesus to keep what he copied into him through perfect obedience and through every temptation that all men also deal with.
Copied? are you serious? the Lord Jesus is no copy, but the EQUAL Share in the "ECHAD".

a copy is a thing made to be similar or identical to another. and to Make or have made something, is to create or form something. and God said, Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

so if the "Lord" Jesus is a copy, then one violates the bible, the word of God, the TRUTH.

but to understand the Word G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n. which means "Son",
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image

definition #3. gives the correct understanding, "character”, and the title "Son", ,G5207, huios, means, when used metaphorically is of prominent moral characteristics. or those who manifest a certain "character". the source of this definition is from the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

so the assessment that the Lord Jesus is a copy, is reproved by the scriptures. he, the Lord Jesus by title, of his PERSON is expressed in the title,"Son", ,G5207, huios.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Copied? are you serious? the Lord Jesus is no copy, but the EQUAL Share in the "ECHAD".

a copy is a thing made to be similar or identical to another. and to Make or have made something, is to create or form something. and God said, Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

so if the "Lord" Jesus is a copy, then one violates the bible, the word of God, the TRUTH.

but to understand the Word G5481 χαρακτήρ charakter (cha-rak-teer') n. which means "Son",
1. an engraver (the tool or the person).
2. (by implication) an engraving.
3. (hence) a “character,” the figure stamped.
4. (by extension) an exact copy.
5. (figuratively) a representation.
[from charasso “to sharpen to a point” (akin to G1125 through the idea of scratching)]
KJV: express image

definition #3. gives the correct understanding, "character”, and the title "Son", ,G5207, huios, means, when used metaphorically is of prominent moral characteristics. or those who manifest a certain "character". the source of this definition is from the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

so the assessment that the Lord Jesus is a copy, is reproved by the scriptures. he, the Lord Jesus by title, of his PERSON is expressed in the title,"Son", ,G5207, huios.

PICJAG, 101G.
Sorry but I am not going to engage myself again with your foolish carnal human reasoning about the word "echad".

Furthermore, the history behind the Greek word "charakter" that is used in Hebrews 1:3 and what it was used refer to, very clearly reveals that was is a copy of an image from one substance that was either etched or pressed into another substance such as the image of an emperor on a coin.

Your third definition that you gave even reveals this, for a figure stamped into something is a copy of the image from the stamp that it is made from. '

This is the history of the word whether you like it or not dude.

'
Furthermore, if Jesus is the exact image of God the Father, this would require that either Jesus is Spirit without a human body or that God the Father has human body also and just like Jesus does, otherwise Jesus cannot be the exact image of God the Father.

Again also, nowhere in the Hebrew OT does it reveal that to be the Son of God meant that the one called this was God or co equal with God but rather the term refers to the one who was or would be anointed by God's Spirit to be his heir to the throne.
 

civic

Well-known member
ROFLOL, this is the most ridiculous non Biblical statement that I have heard anyone make and it only proves that you are following flesh and blood in your understanding of the scriptures and not the Holy Spirit.

In other words you savor those things that belong to men and their finite thinking rather than what belongs to God and his infinite mind and the same mind that was in Christ also by God's Holy Spirit that dwelt within him.

1 Corinthians 2:13-16 New International Version

13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we (who are truly led by the Spirit) have the mind of Christ.



1 Corinthians 3:1-2 New King James Version

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;






Yep and out of your own mouth you again revealed what mind you are getting your doctrine from in your statement above
All you have are ad hominem remarks, let us know when you are capable of an intelligent respond that is cordial and biblical, until then your posts will be ignored. And BTW you never refuted the OP with any sort of exegetical response just your ideas. That is eisegesis. Let me know when you can apply hermenuetics to one of your responses to my OP. Until then audios amigo. :)

hope this helps !!!
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
All you have are ad hominem remarks, let us know when you are capable of an intelligent respond that is cordial and biblical, until then your posts will be ignored. And BTW you never refuted the OP with any sort of exegetical response just your ideas. That is eisegesis. Let me know when you can apply hermenuetics to one of your responses to my OP. Until then audios amigo. :)

hope this helps !!!
So then, does that mean that you agree with him that the word "today" in Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 refers to eternity before God created days civic?
 

101G

Well-known member
So then, does that mean that you agree with him that the word "today" in Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5 refers to eternity before God created days civic?
Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

#1. do you even know what a. begotten means? do you, or b. "Son?

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

#1. do you even know what a. begotten means? do you, or b. "Son?

PICJAG, 101G.

You don't seem to know what the word "Today" means, so instead of conveniently trying to change the subject, lets resolve the facts about that first and then we can go on to the word "begotten".

So after you finally can admit the truth that there were no such thing as days before the creation of the world, you can also tell us what you believe "the word "begotten" means, that way we can watch you put your own foot in your mouth again and like what is usual for you also.
 

101G

Well-known member
You don't seem to know what the word "Today"
"Today" that's prophecy which you don't understand. just as in the beginning? so when was that? or the "DAY" of the LORD?

this is what I'm speaking of. if you would have understood "begotten", and the term Son, then "TODAY" would not be hard to understand,

this unconscious mentation is somthing.... :eek: YIKES!.

Good day to you.

PICJAG, 101Gt.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
off topic
How is that off topic civic when my reply that you responded to was in answer to his post #341, where he stated these words, " for Augustine says," Thy Today is Eternity, therefore didst thou begat the Co- eternal to whom didst thou saith this day have I begotten thee "?

By the way and while we are at it, how was my answer to what he said Ad hominem Civic, when I corrected him on this by the fact that the word "today" means that God declared this of Jesus on a specific day after God created the days in Genesis 1 and not in eternity being there are no such thing as days in eternity?
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
"Today" that's prophecy which you don't understand. just as in the beginning? so when was that? or the "DAY" of the LORD?

ROFLOL, the word "beginning" as used in John 1:1 clearly refers to the point in which the creation would begin to exist and it certainly does not mean "eternity".

Furthermore, the "day of the Lord" still refers to a day in created time dude and so I cant see how you think that arguing about that is going to help your case.
this is what I'm speaking of. if you would have understood "begotten", and the term Son, then "TODAY" would not be hard to understand,

However I am not the one who has the trouble understanding any of it but rather it is you that is obviously confused about it and if you would divorce yourself from your preconceived ideas about God, who knows whether or not God will finally open your eyes to what it all truly means??????
this unconscious mentation is somthing.... :eek: YIKES!.

Good day to you.

PICJAG, 101Gt.
Sorry but I can't return the blessing, for unlike you, I know what I am told to do about false teachers and I do it also.


2 John 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
 

Anthony

Active member
You don't seem to know what the word "Today" means, so instead of conveniently trying to change the subject, lets resolve the facts about that first and then we can go on to the word "begotten".

So after you finally can admit the truth that there were no such thing as days before the creation of the world, you can also tell us what you believe "the word "begotten" means, that way we can watch you put your own foot in your mouth again and like what is usual for you also.
You are trying to put your conclusion on what he might not know. He asked you something and you respond to non question.
 

101G

Well-known member
ROFLOL, the word "beginning" as used in John 1:1 clearly refers to the point in which the creation would begin to exist and it certainly does not mean "eternity".
see, this just what I'm speaking of, listen, Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

this is the nonesense I'm speaking of,

PICJAG, 101G.
 

civic

Well-known member
ROFLOL, this is the most ridiculous non Biblical statement that I have heard anyone make and it only proves that you are following flesh and blood in your understanding of the scriptures and not the Holy Spirit.

In other words you savor those things that belong to men and their finite thinking rather than what belongs to God and his infinite mind and the same mind that was in Christ also by God's Holy Spirit that dwelt within him.

1 Corinthians 2:13-16 New International Version

13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”

But we (who are truly led by the Spirit) have the mind of Christ.



1 Corinthians 3:1-2 New King James Version

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;






Yep and out of your own mouth you again revealed what mind you are getting your doctrine from in your statement above
Of course all truth concerning Jesus is ridiculous to you since you deny Him and as Jesus said those who deny the Son, the Father will also deny.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
"Today" that's prophecy which you don't understand. just as in the beginning? so when was that? or the "DAY" of the LORD?

this is what I'm speaking of. if you would have understood "begotten", and the term Son, then "TODAY" would not be hard to understand,

this unconscious mentation is somthing.... :eek: YIKES!.

Good day to you.

PICJAG, 101Gt.
More carnal human reasoning, for it doesn't matter that it is prophecy, for when it says "today" as a day prophesied and that is yet to come in the future, it still refers to a day in created time, for there are no days in regards to eternity and days only began to exist during the creation. .
 
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