Kenosis Heresy

aeg4971

Active member
Addressing the OP,

thanks, for it is all about POWER, the G1411 dunamis, and the G1849 exousia., and NOT his DEITY, or "NATURE", SPIRIT, for his NATURE, is the "SHARED" spirit, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

FORM: G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313

and G3313 is where Our ANSWER of his equality lay, which is in the TERM as said,
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something).

and another word for "portion" is "SHARE", there is that equality. and the Greeks explain this equality in the term G243 ANOTHER, which is the ECHAD expressed numerically. "Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort". BINGO, a numerical difference is the "FIRST", and the "LAST", supportive scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." meaning the WITH is the SAME SORT, or PERSON as Phil 2:6 b states, " to be equal with God".
well that equality is the SAME ONE PERSON, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."

the First is the LAST, not two person, but the same ONE person.

so the OP is Correct in that the Lord Jesus is GOD almighty in Flesh. which is answered by the UNDERSTANDING of "TOOK PERT", and but not being a "PARTAKER" of flesh and blood.

PICJAG, 101G.
Why do you always insist not two persons , when everything you assert before and after manifestly express a distinction in the supposita of which it is spoken ? We adjust our intellects to accommodate the words and terms signified as applied to God. So what is your problem? It is not two beings or subjects as you use this word person contrasted in the plural , but it is two persons as we use this word person contrasted in the plural. All the while your theological construct actually teaches two beings. One divine and one human. One spirit and one flesh.

History of Christendom shows wording is everything. You can be off by two or three words and terms in a theological supposition , and be deemed an heretic subject to excommunication , or worse burnt at the stake.


.......Alan
 
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aeg4971

Active member
ROFLOL, if Paul was speaking of Jesus as being God, he wouldn't even have used the word "isa" or "equal" because he who is equal is not the same being as the one who he is equal unto, for that isn't what the word means and it would then be like saying that Jesus was equal to himself and which is quite redundant.

But those who love ignorance should remain ignorant by all means and they will also.
On the contrary just as the Apostle John showed the distinction and yet sameness between God and His own Word ,likewise Paul showed a distinction and yet sameness between God and His own Form. Furthermore equality signifies the negation of greater or less , and thus sameness.

You are really ROFLOL with your modern 21st century humanism. For real!!!!!!!. " The simple indeed who I will not call unwise and unlearned". But you are full of humanism . God does not birth creatures out of Himself, which is why the scriptures are worded in the manner that they are. As the scriptures express ,we recognize and understand a distinction and at once sameness, while you sunder as the ancient heretical Arians. So don't be so smug, it is not a good look denying Christ divine self sovereignty.

Call it what you wanna, and it still will be the divine self subsistence.

.......Alan
 
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Yahchristian

Well-known member
Thank you Civic because if one just had to use this word Kenosis , your post is how any orthodox post Apostolic theologian would express it, otherwise one might as we be teaching semi Arianism of the fully indwelling spirit.

Civic has yet to answer my question concerning the OP.

Are YOU able to answer my question...

Which nature of Jesus "made himself nothing"?

One of your fellow Trinitarians said “The Divine nature of course.” But I would like to know YOUR answer.

I believe Jesus was GOD manifest as a human with a glorious body and "made himself nothing" by exchanging his glorious body for a mortal body.
 

101G

Well-known member
Why do you always insist not two persons , when everything you assert before and after manifestly express a distinction in the supposita of which it is spoken ? We adjust our intellects to accommodate the words and terms signified as applied to God. So what is your problem? It is not two beings or subjects as you use this word person contrasted in the plural , but it is two persons as we use this word person contrasted in the plural. All the while your theological construct actually teaches two beings. One divine and one human. One spirit and one flesh.

History of Christendom shows wording is everything. You can be off by two or three words and terms in a theological supposition , and be deemed an heretic subject to excommunication , or worse burnt at the stake.


.......Alan
GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second I have no problem, the problem is you and many other who don't inderstand the "ECHAD" of ONE PERSON "ONLY".

this is your problem, listen closley, the plural you use is not in Ordinal expression, but in cardinal numbers, that's your problem, you should seriously learn the difference between Cardinal numbers and Ordinal Numbers. for the plurality is expressed in the term G243 allos, the "ANOTHER" which is a numerical difference in TIME, PLACE, RANK, and get this "ORDER"... which is ORDINAL in Nature. HELLO? did you get that? and that numerical difference is expressed in the ordinal number First and Last. who is ONE PERSON. listen again,

Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."
did you understand? the "First" is "WITH", WITH, the Last and he said "I", ONE PERSON, lets make it clear, the Word in John 1:1 is "WITH" God ... right, now hear this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." HELLO, HELLO,
did you understand that? NOT TWO BEING, but ONE BEING "Diversified", or "shared" in the NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE of First and Last. this is possible of God by "SHARING" EQUALLY himself in "FLESH and Bone, with blood, by making himself G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō'), while in that Natural Flesh and blood. BINGO.

now, do one have two "Spirit" meaning NATURE? no, the Spirit is the Same, now the "Spirit" shared in flesh is in "TIME", PLACE", "ORDER", and "RANK".

lets make it plain,
TIME: In the Beginning, ...... Genesis 1:1, and John 1:1 the End the Last Adam. the titles "the Beginning and the End".

PLACE: position in this time and space ...... Genesis 1:1 "CREATOR" and "MAKER of all things. , John 1:1 "SAVIOUR, and "REDEEMER" of all things.

ORDER: in the time and position ....Cardinal NUMBERS. Genesis 1:1 Title, "Father", John 1:1 "Son".

RANK: in this time, place and position, ...... Genesis 1:1 "LORD", John 1:1 "Lord".

this is too easy. learn the difference then you will not be asking in the dark anymore, as "your theological construct actually teaches two beings." is that's my construct or yours? this is what I been say when one is Ignorant of UNDERSTANDING, they .... "construct"... on a false foundation.

now the Amalgamation of this "TIME", "PLACE", "ORDER", and "RANK", Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

LISTEN, Revelation 1:4:b, "from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne"

WHICH IS, WHICH WAS, and WHICH IS to Come is the same as .... "I AM, THAT, I AM" ................. (smile).... lol.


WHICH IS... "I AM", (Spirit), Genesis 1:1 title LORD, Father, the Beginning, the "FIRST" , the Alpha. CREATOR, and MAKER

WHICH WAS ... "THAT" , (spirit, shared in flesh), John 1:1, title, Lord, the End, the "LAST" , The Omega, SAVIOUR, and REDEEMER

WHICH IS to Come, "I AM", (Spirit), Revelation 1:1, title ALL OF THE ABOVE . HELLO ......

MY GOD he told us over and over, "I AM THAT I AM", I AM the "First" and I AM the "Last", the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega, and I AM the FATHER and the SON......

How hard is that to understand? so never construct on a flase foundation, build on the ONLY TRUE FOUNDATION, the ONLY TRUE and LIVING GOD, the Lord JESUS.

if you have any serious questions, post them, all other nonesense is rejected. we suggest you re-read this post for clarity and edification.

PICJAG. 101G.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
On the contrary just as the Apostle John showed the distinction and yet sameness between God and His own Word ,likewise Paul showed a distinction and yet sameness between God and His own Form. Furthermore equality signifies the negation of greater or less , and thus sameness.

You are really ROFLOL with your modern 21st century humanism. For real!!!!!!!. " The simple indeed who I will not call unwise and unlearned". But you are full of humanism . God does not birth creatures out of Himself, which is why the scriptures are worded in the manner that they are. As the scriptures express ,we recognize and understand a distinction and at once sameness, while you sunder as the ancient heretical Arians. So don't be so smug, it is not a good look denying Christ divine self sovereignty.

Call it what you wanna, and it still will be the divine self subsistence.

.......Alan
Fact is fact dude and neither the word "isa" or its English "equal" ever refers to one who is the same exact single being as another and all phony baloney apostate religious clackers will very soon bite hard into that reality also and as Jesus said it below.

Luke 13:28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
On the contrary just as the Apostle John showed the distinction and yet sameness between God and His own Word ,likewise Paul showed a distinction and yet sameness between God and His own Form. Furthermore equality signifies the negation of greater or less , and thus sameness.

You are really ROFLOL with your modern 21st century humanism. For real!!!!!!!. " The simple indeed who I will not call unwise and unlearned". But you are full of humanism . God does not birth creatures out of Himself, which is why the scriptures are worded in the manner that they are. As the scriptures express ,we recognize and understand a distinction and at once sameness, while you sunder as the ancient heretical Arians. So don't be so smug, it is not a good look denying Christ divine self sovereignty.

Call it what you wanna, and it still will be the divine self subsistence.

.......Alan
By the way, all of creation was conceived first in God's mind and therefore your idea that "God doesn't birth creatures out of himself" is also totally false.

For where else do you think that they came from dude?

For before he spoke them into existence, they didn't exist at all and he spoke them into existence out from his mind where they were first conceived as his thought and plan.
 

101G

Well-known member
Fact is fact dude and neither the word "isa" or its English "equal" ever refers to one who is the same exact single being as another and all phony baloney apostate religious clackers will very soon bite hard into that reality also and as Jesus said it below.
this is what I been saying, ignorance of the scriptures, rightly dividing the word of truth? not in the above statement

LISTEN and LEARN.
Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

here "FORM" is the Greek word,
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313

notice definition #2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature. now the question, "How do we understand the "EQUALNESS" of this nature?" good question.... it is found in the definition itself.... perhaps from the base of G331, ok, so what's G331? lets see,
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something).

a portion? yes, this is the ANSWER to the "EQUAL NATURE", another word for "portion" is "SHARE". BINGO.... there is our answer. The Loed Jesus the Christ is the "EQUAL SHARE" in NATURE/G3444 μορφή morphe ..... "WITH" God/the Spirit. meaning it's the same one person because on one is "EQUAL" to God, only Jesus the Ordinal Last is EQUAL "WITH" God who is Spirit. remember the example in Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." (THE FIRST IS "WITH" THE LAST), and the FIRST is also the LAST, (the same one person), as in Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." and as in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

so the "WITH" shows us that Jesus the Ordinal Last is the "EQUAL SHARE" ... "WITH" the Spirit... "GOD", the Ordinal FIRST... BINGO.....

Oh how easy the bible is to understand when one have the GREATEST TEACHER ever, the Holy Spirit, who is the TRUE GOD, because he LIVES, the Lord JESUS.

so your statement is a false assessment of the equality in the Lord Jesus NATURE.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-known member
By the way, all of creation was conceived first in God's mind and therefore your idea that "God doesn't birth creatures out of himself" is also totally false.

For where else do you think that they came from dude?

For before he spoke them into existence, they didn't exist at all and he spoke them into existence out from his mind where they were first conceived as his thought and plan.
WAS not the woman in the man when he created them male and female? so she was there in the man at his creation, who we all are in him God. supportive scripture, Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

one might want to RE-READ that verse again.

for did not God know Jeremiah "BEFORE" he form him in the womb. Jeremiah 1:5.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
this is what I been saying, ignorance of the scriptures, rightly dividing the word of truth? not in the above statement
Here you are once again showing your ignorance of the meaning of the scripture you quoted "rightly dividing the word of truth" from 2 Timothy 2:15.

First off, the KJV translation is faulty on this because the Greek word "spoudazo" is never defined as "study" but it means to "endeavor quickly" and you should be able to see our word "speed" in this word, for that is what it really means.

Furthermore, Paul is not instructing Timothy on how to receive the truth from the word but rather on how to minister it properly to those under his authority and the context is all about this.

Therefore when he says "rightly dividing the word", it has nothing to do with Timothy studying the word of God because Timothy already knew how to receive the truth through the discernment of the Holy Spirit and Paul even says this in the context.

So "rightly dividing the word of God" is referring to Timothy learning how to deliver out the word to every need that arises in the church and which the context supports while it doesn't support your false idea about it but that is what happens when one is taught by human wisdom and reasoning instead of by the Spirit, See 1 Corinthian 2:13-16.
LISTEN and LEARN.
Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"

Sorry but I don't learn from the same human wisdom and reasoning that you learn from but rather from the wisdom and reasoning of God himself through the discernment he give by his Spirit.

Furthermore, you are not qualified to teach others the truth, for you don't even know it yourself.
here "FORM" is the Greek word,
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
[perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)]
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
Nope, for how the word is used all through the NT does not support this idea.
notice definition #2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature. now the question, "How do we understand the "EQUALNESS" of this nature?" good question.... it is found in the definition itself.... perhaps from the base of G331, ok, so what's G331? lets see,
G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros) n.
1. a portion (i.e. an amount allotted, a part of something).

Sorry but the way the word "morphe" and its root and all the words associated with it are used in the NT does not support your theory from your bias trin Lexicons.

For the word is never used to speak of the inner substance or ontology of anything but only the outward characteristics and Mark 16:12 and 2 Timothy 3:5 are perfect examples of this also.
a portion? yes, this is the ANSWER to the "EQUAL NATURE", another word for "portion" is "SHARE". BINGO.... there is our answer. The Loed Jesus the Christ is the "EQUAL SHARE" in NATURE/G3444 μορφή morphe ..... "WITH" God/the Spirit. meaning it's the same one person because on one is "EQUAL" to God, only Jesus the Ordinal Last is EQUAL "WITH" God who is Spirit. remember the example in Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." (THE FIRST IS "WITH" THE LAST), and the FIRST is also the LAST, (the same one person), as in Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." and as in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

so the "WITH" shows us that Jesus the Ordinal Last is the "EQUAL SHARE" ... "WITH" the Spirit... "GOD", the Ordinal FIRST... BINGO.....

Oh how easy the bible is to understand when one have the GREATEST TEACHER ever, the Holy Spirit, who is the TRUE GOD, because he LIVES, the Lord JESUS.

so your statement is a false assessment of the equality in the Lord Jesus NATURE.

PICJAG, 101G.
ROFLOL, once again, if Paul wanted us to know that Jesus pre existed as God and then became a man to be made a servant, he would have said this plain and simple and something like this below.


Who existing "eimi" as God, did not consider his existing "eimi" as God something to hold to so tightly but instead he humbled himself and made himself a servant by becoming a man.

Sorry but "huparchon" is never used of any existence that had no beginning, for this is not what the word "huparchon" means in the 60 times it is used in the NT.

By the way, it is used of God, but only twice out of those 60 times in Acts 17:24 and 27, but only as something that God had a beginning to exist as and if you notice Paul first states that God made the world and all things within it.

Therefore the heaven and earth and man upon it had a beginning and so did God being Lord of it and also not far from any of us who also had a beginning of existence.

Acts 17:24-28​

New International Version​

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is "huparchon" the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is "huparchon" not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

Being heaven and earth had a beginning as per Paul's beginning words "The God who made the world and everything within it", he wasn't Lord of it from all eternity but only after he first created it and the same goes for his not being far from any of us, for being we had a beginning, so did God in not being far from any of us.


Therefore there is absolutely nothing in Paul's words in Philippians 2:5-8 that could possibly support your trinity bias human wisdom and reasoning on it period.
 
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Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
WAS not the woman in the man when he created them male and female? so she was there in the man at his creation, who we all are in him God. supportive scripture, Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"

one might want to RE-READ that verse again.

for did not God know Jeremiah "BEFORE" he form him in the womb. Jeremiah 1:5.

PICJAG, 101G.
ROFLOL and you think this supports your false doctrine that Jesus is God dude?

It doesn't but leans more towards the fact that God also foreknew Jesus and as the firstborn of all in creation that he foreknew also and this is even revealed in the NT, Colossians 1:15-16.

1 Peter 1:20 Who truly was foreknown "prognosko" before the foundaton of the world but was in these last days manifest for you"

Here is another below and Paul is speaking of Jesus as the first man in God predestined plan and we can be sure of this because he says "that he might be the firstborn among many (human) brethren.

Romans 8:29, "For those whom he foreknew, them he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he (the human Son and heir) might be the firstborn among many (other human) brethren".


Also, the reason why God is able to know and declare the end from the beginning, is because with God what we are only now experiencing being bound by time, God has already experienced right from the beginning.


Furthermore, in this sense, Jesus already was crucified and raised from the dead and ascended into heaven before the foundation world in God's dimension of existence and before anything at all was created in our dimension and the Bible also supports this as well in the passage below.

Revelation 13:8​

King James Version​

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 

101G

Well-known member
First off, the KJV translation is faulty on this because the Greek word "spoudazo" is never defined as "study" but it means to "endeavor quickly" and you should be able to see our word "speed" in this word, for that is what it really means.
Just as I posted in another topic, it's always an excuse.

so GOOD DAY,

PICJAG, 101G.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Civic has yet to answer my question concerning the OP.

Are YOU able to answer my question...

Which nature of Jesus "made himself nothing"?

One of your fellow Trinitarians said “The Divine nature of course.” But I would like to know YOUR answer.

I believe Jesus was GOD manifest as a human with a glorious body and "made himself nothing" by exchanging his glorious body for a mortal body.
Jesus Christ had NO body prior to His conception in Mary.
ONLY men have bodies.
 

aeg4971

Active member
The Chalcedonian Creed declares "the distinction of natures" and "the property of each nature being preserved".

In other words, the humanity of Jesus is NOT deity.

So when you say this...



Which nature of Jesus "laid aside His rights as Deity"?
And you received a like for this. The Word Himself made passable (ie laid aside or emptied ) by taking upon Himself the form of a servant . Also known as the sending of the Son (under the law) by way of the virgin birth ( and that holy thing born of thee). A body has thou prepared for the Word Himself to become obedient unto death, That is not rocket science nor the humanism which so easily besets us 21st century English only speakers.

Why would you even contemplate your navel over if Jesus humanity is Deity ? The very concept of Hypostatic Union or Incarnation makes such straw not even something to consider in our minds .


....... Alan
 

aeg4971

Active member
Civic has yet to answer my question concerning the OP.

Are YOU able to answer my question...

Which nature of Jesus "made himself nothing"?

One of your fellow Trinitarians said “The Divine nature of course.” But I would like to know YOUR answer.

I believe Jesus was GOD manifest as a human with a glorious body and "made himself nothing" by exchanging his glorious body for a mortal body.
No nature was made nothing ,but rather hypostasis- Beneath standing, The underlining reality which supports all else ,and this is by the relation of self awareness. Your every suppositions imports motion and movement ,which could not exist in God.

Notice all of my post are worded in a manner that removes the idea of motion and change in God ( Something you can never say) . We understand a subsisting relation in the divine one from another, but not however as if other from the divine nature.

Most of you import more polytheism trying to circumvent a Trinity of persons, then you can accuse of this name Trinity. That's because most of you see difference as in individuals ,whereas in verities of the divine, there is only distinction, as one regards Himself to another. The medieval camel riders call that " virtual quantity".

....... Alan
 
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Yahchristian

Well-known member
Why would you even contemplate your navel over if Jesus humanity is Deity ?

Because the OP which was posted by a TRINITARIAN says...

“The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity,”

So the TRINITARIAN is the one distinguishing between Jesus’ deity and humanity.

I am simply asking for clarification of the TRINITARIAN statement. So tell us...

1) Did Jesus’ DEITY “lay aside His rights as Deity”?

2) Did Jesus’ HUMANITY “lay aside His rights as Deity”?

Now we will see if you are able to answer these simply Yes / No questions.
 

civic

Well-known member
Civic has yet to answer my question concerning the OP.

Are YOU able to answer my question...

Which nature of Jesus "made himself nothing"?

One of your fellow Trinitarians said “The Divine nature of course.” But I would like to know YOUR answer.

I believe Jesus was GOD manifest as a human with a glorious body and "made himself nothing" by exchanging his glorious body for a mortal body.
Jesus did not have a body prior to the Incarnation. Any more strawman ?
 

civic

Well-known member
Because the OP which was posted by a TRINITARIAN says...

“The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity,”

So the TRINITARIAN is the one distinguishing between Jesus’ deity and humanity.

I am simply asking for clarification of the TRINITARIAN statement. So tell us...

1) Did Jesus’ DEITY “lay aside His rights as Deity”?

2) Did Jesus’ HUMANITY “lay aside His rights as Deity”?

Now we will see if you are able to answer these simply Yes / No questions.
Jesus Person is Divine. That is your answer.

Trinitarians are not Nestorians.

next.............................................................................
 
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