Kenosis Heresy

aeg4971

Active member
More carnal human reasoning, for it doesn't matter that it is prophecy, for when it says "today" as a day prophesied and that is yet to come in the future, it still refers to a day in created time, for there are no days in regards to eternity and days only began to exist during the creation. .
Man you assert God duplicate His own logos in a human son. Tell me what is more carnal and humanistic than that??? Riddle me that sir.


.......Alan
 

civic

Well-known member
I think it is you who use eisegesis rather than scripture in your attempt to impute the untrammelled (except by his own volition) and enthroned deity in Jesus the man.

First the obvious point: Jesus relied entirely on the Father and not on himself (Matt 26:53 "Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?")

The second point is that his complete humanity is always emphasized. "Son of man" appears rather frequently (Psa 80:17, Dan 7:13 & NT many times) in his references to himself, suggesting that he was just a man (see also Heb 2:17, Rom 5:15, Act 2:22, 1Ti 2:5).

The third point is that the bible records in what sense the fulness of the deity lived in Jesus the man, which isn't the sense in which you claim, i.e. he was "full of the Holy Spirit without measure" (Luk 4:1, John 3:34).

The fourth point is that Jesus said that he was "sent from God" If he was "sent," it does suggest that he left something behind. One doesn't usually carry all one's effects with one on a journey (Jhn 1:33, Jhn 4:34, Jhn 5:24 etc).

The fifth point is that if he didn't relinquish anything, then he never descended from the throne of God (John 3:13). Therefore his resurrection to heaven was also a sham, because he never left heaven. Thus you deny the scripture (John 6:62, Acts 1:9, Philippians 2:8, 9) and the Apostles creed (i.e. "He ascended into heaven").

He who possesses ALL the attributes of God MUST be enthroned as God, by definition.
You ran away from the 2 passages in Colossians and Philippians. That shows you cannot exegete those passages or refute them.

Nice try but a swing and a miss . All you did was run away from them and proved you are the one practicing eisegesis not me.

Until you address those passages and refute them I will not run down your rabbit trails. That is how a debate works. Obviously you have never debated any one before.

hope this helps !!!
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Sorry but your modern English speaking humanism trying to tell us what the Greeks meant is laughable . The ancient Greeks did not divide the substance whatever the meant and whatever they said. History of Christendom only shows that the Latins could render what the Greeks meant. We know common English is mostly derived from Latin . It is difficult to comprehend Greek nuance without the Latins . We can't just break out the Greek concordance with English humanism to adequately express Greek nuance in words and terms. Only the Latins could.

The scriptures written in King James English












































































































































You literally render the scriptures like a novel but others are carnal. Whatever helps you sleep better at night.
Is that suppose to be some sort of a sensible or legible attempt at a rebuttal to the truth of the scriptures and the Greek word "charakter" and what the history of how it was used defines what it truly means and what it cannot mean?

No, but instead it is more like your frustrated hurried attempt again to try and salvage your false teaching about this so that you can remain in your vain and false comfort zone and which will not last anyhow but will soon be taken away from you no matter how you fight to hold on to it.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Man you assert God duplicate His own logos in a human son. Tell me what is more carnal and humanistic than that??? Riddle me that sir.


.......Alan
Tell me dude, wasn't the image of God that God created within Adam a duplication from his own being also?

That is what that word "charakter" in Hebrews 1:3 as defined refers to dude and whether you like it or can accept it or not.
 

cjab

Active member
You ran away from the 2 passages in Colossians and Philippians. That shows you cannot exegete those passages or refute them.

Nice try but a swing and a miss . All you did was run away from them and proved you are the one practicing eisegesis not me.

Until you address those passages and refute them I will not run down your rabbit trails. That is how a debate works. Obviously you have never debated any one before.

hope this helps !!!
No, it's just your debating technique to seek to humiliate your opponents à la the traditional Calvinist way. Obviously I have never debated anyone before? I don't think Calvinists want to debate the Trinity. They'd rather worship it.
 

civic

Well-known member
No, it's just your debating technique to seek to humiliate your opponents à la the traditional Calvinist way. Obviously I have never debated anyone before? I don't think Calvinists want to debate the Trinity. They'd rather worship it.
ad hominem a sure sign your arguments are invalid. Let me know when you can address the 3 passages in the OP from Colossians and Philippians. Until then I have no interest in a dialogue with you.

BYW- I'm not a calvinist.

hope this helps !!!
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
You ran away from the 2 passages in Colossians and Philippians. That shows you cannot exegete those passages or refute them.

Nice try but a swing and a miss . All you did was run away from them and proved you are the one practicing eisegesis not me.

Until you address those passages and refute them I will not run down your rabbit trails. That is how a debate works. Obviously you have never debated any one before.

hope this helps !!!
You mean like you ran away from my exegesis of John 1:3-4?


Post in thread 'John 1:3-4 - All things created through the Word except for the Word'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/joh...the-word-except-for-the-word.5298/post-350445

Pot, kettle?
 

civic

Well-known member
You mean like you ran away from my exegesis of John 1:3-4?


Post in thread 'John 1:3-4 - All things created through the Word except for the Word'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/joh...the-word-except-for-the-word.5298/post-350445

Pot, kettle?
I said what I needed to say in that thread. Bored are you ?

You and old johhny boy milton can have your fun over there by yourselves. And you wonder why that forum gets no attention these days. It use to have some great posters but people like you and milton ran them off as they don't have the time to deal with the mentality of children who only like to argue their doctrine and not look at the text through an objective lens. That is the problem with unitarians on that forum they only want to push their agenda.

hope this helps !!!
 

civic

Well-known member
You gave your opinion and then fled. But here you tout your debating ability. I was just hoping to see an example of it.
I'm not really interested in that forum these days. I use to enjoy it very much 10-15 years ago and I spent allot of my time there before milton came along and ruined things on that forum.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
I'm not really interested in that forum these days. I use to enjoy it very much 10-15 years ago and I spent allot of my time there before milton came along and ruined things on that forum.
Well, you did make a number of posts just now in the languages forum on my OP of John 1:3-4 and then fled.

What you say does not match what you do.
 

civic

Well-known member
Well, you did make a number of posts just now in the languages forum on my OP of John 1:3-4 and then fled.

What you say does not match what you do.
And it was the same old stuff and the reason no one is posting in there roger. I'm not interested in anyone appealing to authority in a language forum.
 

civic

Well-known member
Lol! Anyone who knows your style and my style knows you are reversing our roles.


Post in thread 'John 1:3-4 - All things created through the Word except for the Word'
https://forums.carm.org/threads/joh...the-word-except-for-the-word.5298/post-350459
I'm not interested. You can try and coerce someone else to go over to the dead forum. The 6k messages are mostly you and milton rofl.

FYI- what you are now doing is why everyone left the forum in the first place. Its called harassment.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
We are talking about Jesus Christ, not a mere Christian. The real question is what "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells" means as constrasted to "emptied himself" in Phil 2:6. Note that in Col 2:9 the tense is present, suggesting the living, elevated, resurrected and ascended Christ, existing at date of the letter to the Colossians. However, if perchance it does refer back to the man Jesus Christ, then we have to accord the meaning of "fullness of the deity" in Col 2:9 to the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit + the Word incarnate in Jesus' divine person (i.e. his soul)" to be consistent with Phil 2:6.


And yet he was limited in operation by his human form. He was unable to perform the actions of divinity except by obedience to his Father and by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Col. 2:9 is NOT a reference to The Holy Spirit. ALL the fullness of The Godhead dwelling in Christ BODILY means He was God AS MAN, i.e. God AND Man.
He voluntarily surrendered access to His Divine attributes when becoming a Man, using them ONLY as The Father was willing. He accepted ALL the limitations of men. When He DID perform miracles He did so by His OWN Divine power, AND the power of The Father and Holy Spirit.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Phil 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70
κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

This is how one exegetes the passage rather than using eisegesis- reading ones own thoughts and ideas into the text.

hope this helps !!!
How, then was it POSSIBLE for Jesus to be TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE???? How could one "Tempt" God, since God can't be Tempted with evil??
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Col. 2:9 is NOT a reference to The Holy Spirit. ALL the fullness of The Godhead dwelling in Christ BODILY means He was God AS MAN, i.e. God AND Man.
He voluntarily surrendered access to His Divine attributes when becoming a Man, using them ONLY as The Father was willing. He accepted ALL the limitations of men. When He DID perform miracles He did so by His OWN Divine power, AND the power of The Father and Holy Spirit.

I don't think you realize what the word "Godhead" means:


godhead (n.)​

c. 1200, "divine nature, deity, divinity," from god + Middle English -hede (see -head). Along with maidenhead, the sole survival of this form of the suffix. Old English had godhad "divine nature." Parallel form godhood is from early 13c., now chiefly restricted to "state or condition of being a god."
 

civic

Well-known member
How, then was it POSSIBLE for Jesus to be TEMPTED IN EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE???? How could one "Tempt" God, since God can't be Tempted with evil??
Scripture declared the Israelites tempted God in the wilderness wanderings.

Deut 6:16
“You shall not tempt the Lord your God as you tempted Him in Massah.

Jesus quotes it here when He was tempted

Matt 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
 
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