Kenosis Heresy

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
Yes, and Jesus said if someone is looking at a woman with improper thoughts it means he has already committed adultery.

What's the difference?
How far he takes it, of course. One can look at a modestly attired attractive woman with lust. "Pornography" isn't necessarily even involved.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
How far he takes it, of course. One can look at a modestly attired attractive woman with lust. "Pornography" isn't necessarily even involved.
That's fair. My point is that it does not require actually committing the adultery in his heart (ie action) to commit a sin. Aside from that I don't think we are that far apart.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Col. 2:9 is NOT a reference to The Holy Spirit. ALL the fullness of The Godhead dwelling in Christ BODILY means He was God AS MAN, i.e. God AND Man.
Why does this exclude the Holy Spirit?

He accepted ALL the limitations of men.
i.e. By becoming a man.

When He DID perform miracles He did so by His OWN Divine power, AND the power of The Father and Holy Spirit.
No. Just the power of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Contrast:
Acts 4:10, Rom 10:9, Gal 1:1, 1Pe 1:21, Col 2:12, Acts 13:30 "God raised him from the dead:"

with

Jhn 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

How?

Jhn 10:18 "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

So Jesus received a "command" from his "Father." Was he acting by his own power or by the power of the Father?

By the power that the Father had given him. So he was not acting as "God" independently of the Father but only by the Father's power and authority. So it wasn't "his own power" separate from that of the Father as you make out. Rather it was the Father's power. As Jesus says:

Luk 15:31 “ ‘My son,' the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours."
Jhn 3:35 "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands."

So all the power that Jesus exerted came from his Father and belonged to his Father but was gifted to Christ by the Holy Spirit.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Why does this exclude the Holy Spirit?

I have asked that question before, but in reality it's ALL the Godhead. The only theological group who teaches that are oneness Pentecostals and the like as they see the entire Godhead as one person.

And if ALL the Godhead is in Jesus' physical body there is none left for any other person as he exhausts the Godhead.

Or they could admit that all does not mean ALL.

:)
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Luke 3:38 says in the King James, the same bible Jesus red:

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

What exactly do you think the difference is between "the son of God" and "son of God" anyway?
Do you mean THE ONE and ONLY Son of God as found in John 3:16 or a created son of God as found in Genesis????
I have asked that question before, but in reality it's ALL the Godhead. The only theological group who teaches that are oneness Pentecostals and the like as they see the entire Godhead as one person.

And if ALL the Godhead is in Jesus' physical body there is none left for any other person as he exhausts the Godhead.

Or they could admit that all does not mean ALL.

:)
The Godhead is NEVER exhausted.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Do you mean THE ONE and ONLY Son of God as found in John 3:16 or a created son of God as found in Genesis????

Both were created. Adam was the beginning of human creation and the Word was the beginning of
creation. (Rev 3:14).

The Godhead is NEVER exhausted.

Well, you say that three persons exhaust the Godhead. Or could there be more? If not then 3 persons exhaust the Godhead in your theology.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Both were created. Adam was the beginning of human creation and the Word was the beginning of
creation. (Rev 3:14).



Well, you say that three persons exhaust the Godhead. Or could there be more? If not then 3 persons exhaust the Godhead in your theology.
Created is NEVER used in reference to Jesus Christ; ONLY BEGOTTEN is.
I have NO idea what you mean by exhaust the Godhead. Does God become exhausted????
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Created is NEVER used in reference to Jesus Christ; ONLY BEGOTTEN is.
I have NO idea what you mean by exhaust the Godhead. Does God become exhausted????
Only-begotten does not mean not having a beginning ...

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Isaac was not created either, eh?
 

cjab

Well-known member
That's not what αρχή means. He was the first part of creation, the beginning.

It never means originator.
The same word occurs in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word."

However, the word is not nearly so precise as you make out. It has a variety of contextual meanings including:
- beginning, origin (abstractly);
- the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader:
- that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause
- the extremity of a thing
- the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

I conclude that in no sense can Rev 3:14 infer that the Word of God is part of God's creation. Rather it can only mean that he was there at the beginning of it.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
The same word occurs in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word."

However, the word is not nearly so precise as you make out. It has a variety of contextual meanings including:
- beginning, origin (abstractly);
- the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader:
- that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause
- the extremity of a thing
- the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

I conclude that in no sense can Rev 3:14 infer that the Word of God is part of God's creation. Rather it can only mean that he was there at the beginning of it.

Ok, then give me an example from scripture where someone is the αρχή of something that has the meaning you give at Revelation 3:14.

Let scripture interpret scripture.

.
 

cjab

Well-known member
Ok, then give me an example from scripture where someone is the αρχή of something that has the meaning you give at Revelation 3:14.

Let scripture interpret scripture.
It's really about the way you read it:

"The beginning of the creation of God,"

meaning either

"the first creative act / created person in the creation of God."

or "the first actor or cause in the creation of God."

Unfortunately there are no other verses in the bible that use the word in the particular sense of Rev 3:14. It is truly sui generis. However since Rev was written by John, the same author as John 1:1, 1:2, we can defer to John 1:1,1:2 for the true sense.
 

Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
It's really about the way you read it:

"The beginning of the creation of God,"

meaning either

"the first creative act / created person in the creation of God."

or "the first actor or cause in the creation of God."

Unfortunately there are no other verses in the bible that use the word in the particular sense of Rev 3:14. It is truly sui generis. However since Rev was written by John, the same author as John 1:1, 1:2, we can defer to John 1:1,1:2 for the true sense.

It's more important how the word is used in its syntax than taking the same word in a completely different context. For example we should look at what the word means when it refers to a person and also when it is the head noun of a genitive phrase like Revelation 3:14.

BDAG says for linguistic reasons it is probable that it means first-created. Here is why:

When a verbal noun is the head noun of a genitive it is either a subjective genitive or objective genitive. This is pretty basic Greek 101. That is what we find with "beginning of creation.

So convert the noun to a verb and the genitive is the subject or object. In this case it is "God created."

The Son is the beginning of what God created.

Interestingly Wisdom at Proverbs 8:22 in the LXX also the αρχή of what God created and also it/he explicitly says "God created me the beginning of his works." I am not arguing that the Word is Jesus here so much as to show the same syntax. However many so see an allusion from Proverbs 8:22 to Revelation.

Be that as it may, you do seem to agree that it does not mean "origin" at 3:14. And since it does not mean origin at John 1:1, you are left with no opinion still?
 

cjab

Well-known member
It's more important how the word is used in its syntax than taking the same word in a completely different context. For example we should look at what the word means when it refers to a person and also when it is the head noun of a genitive phrase like Revelation 3:14.

BDAG says for linguistic reasons it is probable that it means first-created. Here is why:

When a verbal noun is the head noun of a genitive it is either a subjective genitive or objective genitive. This is pretty basic Greek 101. That is what we find with "beginning of creation.

So convert the noun to a verb and the genitive is the subject or object. In this case it is "God created."

The Son is the beginning of what God created.

Interestingly Wisdom at Proverbs 8:22 in the LXX also the αρχή of what God created and also it/he explicitly says "God created me the beginning of his works." I am not arguing that the Word is Jesus here so much as to show the same syntax. However many so see an allusion from Proverbs 8:22 to Revelation.

Be that as it may, you do seem to agree that it does not mean "origin" at 3:14. And since it does not mean origin at John 1:1, you are left with no opinion still?
Well. having researched this, it seems there are plenty of opinions, that would takes weeks to unravel. E.g.


Yet I think the answer can be neatly concluded from your Wisdom example at Proverbs 8:22 in the LXX, by sampling the next verse, 23, which shows that although wisdom appears to be "created," he is not in fact created in the sense that the universe was created. In fact the creation of wisdom "is" an orgin statement for the rest of creation, and occurs before time began.

"22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works."
"23 He established me "before time was" in the beginning, before he made the earth:"

So the "beginning" means, even before time began.

As what does "being made" connote in this context? Being brought forth /possessed / revealed per the Hebrew translations.

So I see nothing to link Christ or wisdom to what is created, because the word "beginning" does not denote the first created thing, but something that exists before the creation. So it is an origin statement, by analogy to wisdom.
 
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Roger Thornhill

Well-known member
Well. having researched this, it seems there are plenty of opinions, that would takes weeks to unravel. E.g.


Yet I think the answer can be neatly concluded from your Wisdom example at Proverbs 8:22 in the LXX, by sampling the next verse, 23, which shows that although wisdom appears to be "created," he is not in fact created in the sense that the universe was created. In fact the creation of wisdom "is" an orgin statement for the rest of creation, and occurs before time began.

"22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works."
"23 He established me "before time was" in the beginning, before he made the earth:"

So the "beginning" means, even before time began.

As what does "being made" connote in this context? Being brought forth /possessed / revealed per the Hebrew translations.

So I see nothing to link Christ or wisdom to what is created, because the word "beginning" does not denote the first created thing, but something that exists before the creation. So it is an origin statement, by analogy to wisdom.
Except that "Wisdom" said in the LXX that God created him the beginning of his way.

(LXX-APP-Parsed) 22 κύριος ἔκτισέν με ἀρχὴν ὁδῶν αὐτοῦ εἰς ἔργα αὐτοῦ,
23 πρὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἐθεμελίωσέν με ἐν ἀρχῇ

So that means that "Wisdom" is a part of what was created, the first part.

That's the way I take it.
 
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